Current Events > Capitalists, counter this IF you can... Explanation of the current state

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Start your own business and do things differently.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Start your own business and do things differently.

This is one of the good parts of capitalism

There are no capitalists on CE, only proletarians and lumpens

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Start your own business and do things differently.

Why would I do that when I could just create a Union and make you stop exploiting others?

OmnimonZwart posted...

There are no capitalists on CE, only proletarians and lumpens

Someone here owns a brewery

WingsOfGood posted...

Why would I do that when I could just create a Union and make you stop exploiting others?

So do that, then. Point is, you've got options.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Start your own business and do things differently.

As a business owner your interest changes, your motive becomes profit, incentivizing exploitationary practices (low wages, no benefits, etc.)

Capitalism is a system and cannot be overcome through individual actions.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

So do that, then. Point is, you've got options.

Oh guess I better bow on my knees and thank the billionaires and capitalists then for this great status of the current world?

Like wtf are you attempting to say?

Did you not read the OP showing laws were made to purposely screw over workers?

And what happens when EVERY WORKER QUITS and starts their own business?

Like

Take a moment

and actually think for a second

WingsOfGood posted...

Like wtf are you attempting to say?

Be the change you want to see.

WingsOfGood posted...

And what happens when EVERY WORKER QUITS and starts their own business?

Guess we'll find out when it happens.

OmnimonZwart posted...

As a business owner your interest changes, your motive becomes profit, incentivizing exploitationary practices (low wages, no benefits, etc.)

Capitalism is a system and cannot be overcome through individual actions.

everyone just start thier own business

uh oh no one wants to work for you cause everyone owns their own business.....

MedeaLysistrata posted...

This is one of the good parts of capitalism

No it's not. The business that exploits labor will always be more profitable than the business that treats labor fairly.

A good analogy is video games. The "free" games with the exploitative loot boxes are also the most profitable, and with no "gamers union" or government regulation to block it, the most successful games are the ones that just rip you off for money.

Fortnite, Genshin, Etc.

Fire Emblem Heroes is not just the most profitable FE game it makes tons more money than most premium Nintendo games.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Guess we'll find out when it happens.

uhhh

Why do we need to wait and see?

Your solution to workers being screwed is they should start their own business.

Are you unable to imagine how that plays out?

WingsOfGood posted...

everyone just start thier own business

uh oh no one wants to work for you cause everyone owns their own business.....

Some will succeed, most will fail. The best product/service with the most effective business model and marketing will come out ahead, then the ones who fail can go work for the one who succeeded.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Some will succeed, most will fail. The best product/service with the most effective business model and marketing will come out ahead, then the ones who fail can go work for the one who succeeded.

So then your advice to me was a lie and deceit?

You act like I can just start my own business and have no need to complain

but now you say chances are it will fail and I will be forced back into a situation of being screwed

so why did you say it?

WingsOfGood posted...

Your solution to workers being screwed is they should start their own business.

No, my solution to your complaints is for you to start your own business and do things the way you think they ought to be done. What's stopping you?

But the amount of Union workers really hasn't changed much over that time.

Since 1984, the number has gone up and down over the years, never really losing or gaining a few hundred thousand employees that are in a union.

Problem is that more industries haven't unionized, as only around 10% of all workers are unionized.

So all those "selfish, uneducated, uninformed assholes" are now retired, have allegadely been replaced by younger, less selfish, more educated, more informed assholes that are STILL not doing anything about growing the power of unions.

So most individuals STILL act like individuals, when it come for fighting for employment rights.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

No, my solution to your complaints is for you to start your own business and do things the way you think they ought to be done. What's stopping you?

most will fail you said

so you aren't actually trying to give advice you just don't want people talking about REAL SOLUTIONS

right?

WingsOfGood posted...

most will fail you said

Right. And the ones who succeed make the rules. So your best option is to succeed and make your own rules. Get cracking.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Right. And the ones who succeed make the rules. So your best option is to succeed and make your own rules. Get cracking.

So you addressed nothing and want workers to be screwed yes?

you love it when others are poor and forced into psuedo slavery right?

this is what you want and crave

bigblu89 posted...

But the amount of Union workers really hasn't changed much over that time.

Since 1984, the number has gone up and down over the years, never really losing or gaining a few hundred thousand employees that are in a union.

Problem is that more industries haven't unionized, as only around 10% of all workers are unionized.

So most individuals act like individuals, when it come for fighting for employment rights.

alot more people today than there used to be probably as well

Gobstoppers12 posted...

No, my solution to your complaints is for you to start your own business and do things the way you think they ought to be done. What's stopping you?

If a product has a margin of 1 and sold by a competitor by employs at minimum wage, then the only way to compete would be to engage in the same shitty exploitative business practices while cutting even more corners to increase margins.

Long term effect of this is labor is treated even worse while the quality of goods steadily decreases in order to increase margins. You literally can't open a business the way you suggest because it will just lose money.

Tyranthraxus posted...

No it's not. The business that exploits labor will always be more profitable than the business that treats labor fairly.

A good analogy is video games. The "free" games with the exploitative loot boxes are also the most profitable, and with no "gamers union" or government regulation to block it, the most successful games are the ones that just rip you off for money.

Fortnite, Genshin, Etc.

Fire Emblem Heroes is not just the most profitable FE game it makes tons more money than most premium Nintendo games.

That only matters if you care about who makes more profit. If you want to create a "hyperobject" or "body" that has a certain structure and role at the base and superstructure levels, it's possible under capitalism.

WingsOfGood posted...

alot more people today than there used to be probably as well

And supposedly more informed and educated that the generation before them.

And are STILL doing nothing about it.

Tyranthraxus posted...

If a product has a margin of 1 and sold by a competitor by employs at minimum wage, then the only way to compete would be to engage in the same shitty exploitative business practices while cutting even more corners to increase margins.

Long term effect of this is labor is treated even worse while the quality of goods steadily decreases in order to increase margins. You literally can't open a business the way you suggest because it will just lose money.

Isn't it interesting how the response to the OP is not to address anything but give lame "advice" he fully well knows does not and cannot work

hmm....

why would....

he do that.....

MedeaLysistrata posted...

That only matters if you care about who makes more profit. If you want to create a "hyperobject" or "body" that has a certain structure and role at the base and superstructure levels, it's possible under capitalism.

It's possible to create but not sustain. If 80% of the country's wealth wasn't tied up by 0.1% then maybe people could have business where employers competed for labor. Back then they had to offer things like pensions to convince you to work for them.

These days you are lucky to get a day off.

I don't disagree with paragraphs 2 or 3.

Paragraph 1 has me scratching my head a little. I need to know how "right to work" is one of the things that weakened unions. Same with "at will" employment. He just throws those out there.

I don't understand how a group representing 60 people at the table costs less than representing 65 people at the table (even if 5 of them aren't members). Obviously it brings in less dues, but it isn't much, if any more work I would think. (Right To Work)

For at will states I'm kind of lost too. Even in at will states it's illegal to fire people if they are talking about or trying to form a union. I'm not naive enough to think that employers won't give another reason for the firings but I'm not understanding how this butchered unions.

I'm pro union, but I am just not understanding some of this.

WrkHrdPlayHrdr posted...

I need to know how "right to work" is one of the things that weakened unions. Same with "at will" employment. He just throws those out there.

No contract on either end means employers shame people who don't give 2 week notice and fire employees on the spot whenever they feel like it.

In the end what looks like a boost to the employee has been twisted and used in the employer's benefit.

Massive layoffs for instance are no longer really seen as a shocker, just how business is done. Infact, profit is made through them. As in, now these don't happen just when a company is doing bad but can happen anytime someone suggest profit is to be made regardless of any other reason.

WingsOfGood posted...

Isn't it interesting how the response to the OP is not to address anything but give lame "advice" he fully well knows does not and cannot work

hmm....

why would....

he do that.....

Well yes there is a definition for rational actor. If something is set up a certain way then there will already be a rational way to act. However if you change the conditions then I do not see how you can proceed rationally from the new starting point.

Curious, but I don't think you can actually explain that... Maybe you can...

Also to mention more, at will for the employee and employer is quite different.

Let me illustrate.

Employer fires most of staff and keeps them underpaid. 0 consequences 99% of the time. Just how it is they say.

Employee quits. Takes a break.
Uh oh! Red flag! Why haven't you been working! Why did you quit! Uh oh!

Turns out you don't have the luxury to quit at will even if it seems you legally do.

oh I forgot another thing

sure

sure you can quit at your will

uh oh! now you don't have healthcare!

would be a shame if you had to pay high hospital bill!

but you totally have the power to quit anytime you want! sure

Gobstoppers12 posted...

No, my solution to your complaints is for you to start your own business and do things the way you think they ought to be done. What's stopping you?

The system that has historically favored the people with the most money. You realize even the biggest businesses didn't really start from the ground up like many of them attempt to propagate. Your solution is not as viable as you are trying to make it seem. Breaking into an industry is not as easy as just starting a business.

Do you have a solution? Usually people will respond to a solution to tell you why it doesn't work.

If you just point out things are unfair then people who are in an advantageous position will not care because they are not affected

MedeaLysistrata posted...

Do you have a solution? Usually people will respond to a solution to tell you why it doesn't work.

If you just point out things are unfair then people who are in an advantageous position will not care because they are not affected

the OP is the solution

it explains how things were

then how they changed

read it again

corporations screwing the working class

more at 11

WingsOfGood posted...

the OP is the solution

it explains how things were

then how they changed

read it again

I'm not gonna read that because you didn't sum it up

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/righttowork-law.asp

What Has Been the Effect of Right-to-Work Laws on Employment?
Economists have looked at employment growth in regions with and without right-to-work (RTW) laws over the past decades. On net, they find that states with RTW laws have shown an increase in the manufacturing share of employment and increased labor participation.10 However, while employment levels are higher, average wages among workers also tend to be lower.11 Meanwhile, dividends to shareholders and executive compensation has increased post-RTW.

What Has Been the Effect of Right-to-Work Laws on Unions?
Studies show that states with right-to-work laws have seen a dramatic decrease in union membership and unionization rates.12 Other research suggests that RTW laws impact corporate policies by decreasing that bargaining power.11

The Bottom Line
Right-to-work laws prohibit unions and employers from making security agreements that could force workers to become paying union members. While these types of laws may appear to give workers more freedom to choose whether or not to join a union or pay union fees or dues, critics argue that such laws actually undermine worker solidarity and give more power to employers. Research shows that states with right-to-work laws feature higher employment rates but lower average wages and union membership than states without it. At present, there is no federal right-to-work law, but 27 states have one on the books.

tl;dr right to work is ALL about reducing wages

this is done by suppressing unions

no shocker why the Repubs are the ones who push for it the hardest

WingsOfGood posted...

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/righttowork-law.asp

tl;dr right to work is ALL about reducing wages

this is done by suppressing unions

no shocker why the Repubs are the ones who push for it the hardest

Do you think reality is friendly? lol

MedeaLysistrata posted...

I'm not gonna read that because you didn't sum it up

Unions made it to where when productivity went up 1%
wages also went up 1%

since 1979 productivity had gone up 150% but wages only 10%

if we still had unions like we did before certain laws then your wages would be 150% more than you are being paid today

MedeaLysistrata posted...

Do you think reality is friendly? lol

why are you shilling so hard for this?

what do you do for a living?

WingsOfGood posted...

Unions made it to where when productivity went up 1%
wages also went up 1%

since 1979 productivity had gone up 150% but wages only 10%

if we still had unions like we did before certain laws then your wages would be 150% more than you are being paid today

Well yes. Brought to you by information society and computers, I guess?

WingsOfGood posted...

why are you shilling so hard for this?

what do you do for a living?

I'm not shilling. I'm just continuing the topic

I'm a student atm

MedeaLysistrata posted...

Well yes. Brought to you by information society and computers, I guess?

???

what does it matter where it comes from

the hard fact is unions keep your wages in pace

and that is why you see unionization starting up again in places like amazon and starbucks

it is literally THE solution

WingsOfGood posted...

???

what does it matter where it comes from

the hard fact is unions keep your wages in pace

and that is why you see unionization starting up again in places like amazon and starbucks

it is literally THE solution

Most of the productivity is computers doing things people can't do

The increase in wages goes to who makes that possible

MedeaLysistrata posted...

Most of the productivity is computers doing things people can't do

The increase in wages goes to who makes that possible

that is not how it works

you don't pay an axe because you can cut down more trees in a day

also your premise is fallacious

the productivity boost is because more is thrown ON THE HUMAN because the HUMAN can use the computer to do more things

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Right. And the ones who succeed make the rules. So your best option is to succeed and make your own rules. Get cracking.

"Might makes right" is not as good as an argument as you think it is.

Not shocked that this dude has Minecraft in his name.

It really paints a certain picture when someone proudly calls the previous generation selfish, uneducated, uninformed assholes and hinges his whole argument on a statistic that he doesnt even know.

WingsOfGood posted...

that is not how it works

you don't pay an axe because you can cut down more trees in a day

also your premise is fallacious

the productivity boost is because more is thrown ON THE HUMAN because the HUMAN can use the computer to do more things

What is my premise though? I think it's a cogent argument. Productivity wouldn't have gone up like that without computers.

Jerry_Hellyeah posted...

Not shocked that this dude has Minecraft in his name.

It really paints a certain picture when someone proudly calls the previous generation selfish, uneducated, uninformed assholes and hinges his whole argument on a statistic that he doesnt even know.

saying Minecrafters are smart?

MedeaLysistrata posted...

What is my premise though? I think it's a cogent argument. Productivity wouldn't have gone up like that without computers.

and?

are you making a statement that has no point?

what is your point?

computers aren't doing the work, humans still do the work.