Poll of the Day > Nerds will call Warhammer expensive

(+) Yeah! (+)

Then gladly pay $300 for an anime waifu figure that they don't even need to build or paint and can't play games with

Oh, they can play games with it.

In retrospect, I'd rather have gotten a RealDoll than my warhammer collection

I literally have both

And to be fair, the majority of Warhammer that gets sold doesn't get painted, used for games or even built. It just sits in somebody's closer.

People who play Warhammer are also nerds though

Both can be expensive.

In school all my friends and I switched from Warhammer to Magic the Gathering because it was so expensive. And that was like 25 years ago before it got REALLY expensive.

Although part of me wonders if my Chaos Space Marine army would still be "legal" today.

Does anyone actually PLAY warhammer though cuz the only time I hear people talking about warhammer it's the lore, or the painting and collecting of minis. Never the actual game. Just "zugzug" and "I'm thinking about building another army but I never finished painting any of my others"

Greenfox111 posted...

Does anyone actually PLAY warhammer though cuz the only time I hear people talking about warhammer it's the lore, or the painting and collecting of minis. Never the actual game. Just "zugzug" and "I'm thinking about building another army but I never finished painting any of my others"

Most people you see talk about it online probably don't actually do much other than post memes or listen to YouTube videos about lore.

Like I mentioned earlier, the majority of models that get purchased don't really get used.

If you game regularly, you tend to see a lot of half finished armies or armies painted to a minimum standard.

That said, there are people who are super passionate about it and invest a lot of time and effort into playing and painting. But the time requirement to build an army is often heavily understated. And to play a game you need about three hours of uninterrupted time.

I have two fully painted armies and tend to spend around 99% of my Warhammer time painting rather than playing. I played a game last month against an army consisting almost entirely of empty bases with no models.

I think it's also worth noting that there are a lot of alternatives out there, now more than ever.

-Kill Team, Warcry and Necromunda are GW supported skirmish games that require far fewer models and space
-Marvel Crisis Protocol, Conquest, Star Wars Legion and Infinity (to name a few) are very popular miniature games right now that require fewer models (generally) than Warhammer, are cheaper, and usually easier to learn/play (and quicker).
-There are a growing number of independent rulesets and 3D printable miniatures that make playing/collecting easier.

Warhammer 40K is probably the most inaccessible miniatures game on the market due to cost, time required and rules bloat/complexity. It's honestly shocking to me that they still manage to maintain a stranglehold on the market, but that's purely due to the quality of their miniatures (which is absolutely stunning, I don't think any other company compares).

But I don't think you should feel the whole hobby is inaccessible just because Warhammer itself is.

Greenfox111 posted...

Does anyone actually PLAY warhammer though

I played a lot of 8th edition, but you're kinda right... I haven't played a single game since covid

Zareth posted...

Nerds will call Warhammer expensive

Sane and rational people will call Warhammer expensive as well. Nerds are just the only ones willing to PAY that much for tiny unpainted figures they need to buy dozens of and then paint themselves in order to potentially play a game with them.



Zareth posted...

Then gladly pay $300 for an anime waifu figure

Yeah, but at least the anime waifu comes pre-painted. And you can jerk off to it.



Ohh, let's be honest, Warhammer nerds are almost certainly jerking off to their figures as well.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Yeah, but at least the anime waifu comes pre-painted. And you can jerk off to it.

Ohh, let's be honest, Warhammer nerds are almost certainly jerking off to their figures as well.

Hey that's not true! There's a reason why there's only one girl sub-sub-sub faction.

shadowsword87 posted...

Hey that's not true! There's a reason why there's only one girl sub-sub-sub faction.

Psssht, like they need girls.

I'm pretty sure one Warhammer nerd I knew years ago went to bed every night jerking off thinking about the Emperor.

shadowsword87 posted...

Hey that's not true! There's a reason why there's only one girl sub-sub-sub faction.

And there's a reason so many third party figures and 3D prints are "your favourite Warhammer models with tits".

I don't really see the point for collectors items whose sole purpose is to sit on a shelf.

Judgmenl posted...

I don't really see the point for collectors items whose sole purpose is to sit on a shelf.

It's decoration

Judgmenl posted...

I don't really see the point for collectors items whose sole purpose is to sit on a shelf.

*looks at stacks of Gundam kits*

Heh, yeah.... yeah...

ParanoidObsessive posted...

I'm pretty sure one Warhammer nerd I knew years ago went to bed every night jerking off thinking about the Emperor.

Do you mean to tell me you're the kind of filthy heretic who doesn't?

I played warrhammer, my understanding is that you wait 10 minutes at a time for your army to walk across a field, and I can't play in windowed mode. Rather play AoE2

Metalsonic66 posted...

*looks at stacks of Gundam kits*

Gundam is different, they require building (and painting if you want)

https://www.ebay.com/p/8042058179

Yeah Warhammer 40k is stupid expensive, from what I hear a typical sized army runs well over $1000 and if you ever want a second army prepare to double that up.

The miniature above costs a whopping $85 and it's not some huge thing.

That's a limited edition model that was only available on one day 2 years ago...

Zareth posted...

That's a limited edition model that was only available on one day 2 years ago...

Silly me I assumed they weren't trying to make it collectible, so that way people could easily buy any miniature they want for their army. I guess they got jealous of the money some other collectible games were pulling in.

To be fair TC, it was only $200, okay?

I have been informed zug zug is from warcraft and I must apologize

Zareth posted...

That's a limited edition model that was only available on one day 2 years ago...

New character models go four around 40 Canadian (I'm gonna guess 35 US?).

One of the concerns I have with Warhammer pricing is it's often unrelated to the quality. Like if you pay 35 for an absolute top quality character, it's subjective if that's worth it. But they'll raise the price of old metal characters who look like ass to match that 35. And there's no way to easily tell how old a model is by checking online stores.

As an example, they just released a new version of the Rhino tank for Horus Heresy, which is sold alongside their old one from the stone age, for essentially the same price, and I guarantee you the build quality of the new one blows the old one out of the water (I haven't personally built either so somebody can confirm).

synth_real posted...

Do you mean to tell me you're the kind of filthy heretic who doesn't?

Nah, Chaos cultist for life.







Actually, I've never been a 40k fan. My interaction with Warhammer has almost always been with Warhammer Fantasy - and that mostly from HeroQuest. And now I have to post this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx8sl2uC46A

Foire of Wroth!

Zareth posted...

Then gladly pay $300 for an anime waifu figure that they don't even need to build or paint and can't play games with

Pretty sure you're confusing nerds with otaku or weebs.

Plus there's usually a cheaper option.

Lokarin posted...

In retrospect, I'd rather have gotten a RealDoll than my warhammer collection

Probably a fuckton cheaper.

Blightzkrieg posted...

And to be fair, the majority of Warhammer that gets sold doesn't get painted, used for games or even built. It just sits in somebody's closer.

I hate it when things sit in the closer.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Sane and rational people will call Warhammer expensive as well. Nerds are just the only ones willing to PAY that much for tiny unpainted figures they need to buy dozens of and then paint themselves in order to potentially play a game with them.

I also liked looking at them, tbh.

Count_Drachma posted...

Probably a f***ton cheaper.

Same cost, based on size of collection

Zareth posted...

Then gladly pay $300 for an anime waifu figure that they don't even need to build or paint and can't play games with

Cuz, waifu's provide a sense of love. Warhammer doesn't, cuz in the 41st millenium there is only....War

Zareth posted...

Foire of Wroth!

This guy gets it.

Zareth posted...

Then gladly pay $300 for an anime waifu figure that they don't even need to build or paint and can't play games with

I mean, at GW's current prices, $300 will get you, like, seven infantry figures and a pot of paint.

Honestly, I have no idea how GW even survives now that 3D printing is a thing. I love Warhammer (both WFB and 40k), but I just couldn't bring myself to pay their exorbitant prices anymore. Every time I went into a store for GW stuff, I came out feeling completely ripped off.

But two years ago I bought a 3D printer and it completely revitalized my love of the hobby. The community has put out models for every single army far nicer than anything GW has ever managed, and you can print off a complete, ready-to-play army for about $100-$150 in shape files and resin, and maybe 2-3 weeks of print time.

darkknight109 posted...

The community has put out models for every single army far nicer than anything GW has ever managed

Doubt

99% of 40k ripoff models are garbage. Also resin sucks ass to work with.

darkknight109 posted...

Honestly, I have no idea how GW even survives now that 3D printing is a thing. I love Warhammer (both WFB and 40k), but I just couldn't bring myself to pay their exorbitant prices anymore. Every time I went into a store for GW stuff, I came out feeling completely ripped off.

I think the ttrpg is a whale-only market. The videogame and books are for the more casual people. Why pay $100 for almost a squad when you can get a quality videogame and a some books? Especially for a handful of minis you need to painstakingly paint and adjust, dumping more and more time into something that's kinda fun (compared to other wargames).

darkknight109 posted...

Honestly, I have no idea how GW even survives now that 3D printing is a thing.

Mainly because GW constantly threatens to sue for theft of intellectual property and screams about how rip-off models aren't tournament legal. They've pushed back against it huge because they understand how it undercuts their entire model. It's entirely possible their current practices (rebooting entire lines and selling everything at vastly overinflated prices) is because they know the gravy train isn't going to last much longer before it runs out. So they're trying to rake in as much revenue as they can now before the bottom falls out.

And let's be honest, most people aren't going to have 3D printers anyway. It's still fairly niche technology for the average consumer.

shadowsword87 posted...

I think the ttrpg is a whale-only market. The videogame and books are for the more casual people. Why pay $100 for almost a squad when you can get a quality videogame and a some books? Especially for a handful of minis you need to painstakingly paint and adjust, dumping more and more time into something that's kinda fun (compared to other wargames).

A lot of systems (I.E. ones not owned by GW or WotC) tend to just require a book. Some of them don't require anything at all and you can get the rules through a PDF. Battletech lets you play games with just little scraps of paper representing your army if you like. The miniatures are just for the people who want them and in no way are required to play the game. Shadowrun has one book for DMs and players, and even that is only "required" if you are playing past level 5.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Mainly because GW constantly threatens to sue for theft of intellectual property and screams about how rip-off models aren't tournament legal. They've pushed back against it huge because they understand how it undercuts their entire model. It's entirely possible their current practices (rebooting entire lines and selling everything at vastly overinflated prices) is because they know the gravy train isn't going to last much longer before it runs out. So they're trying to rake in as much revenue as they can now before the bottom falls out.

And let's be honest, most people aren't going to have 3D printers anyway. It's still fairly niche technology for the average consumer.

GW lost their court case regarding rip off models pretty badly, so they can't do anything about it.

It comes down to a few things:
-3D printed models usually aren't as good as GW plastic in 99% of cases. Even when you have a perfect STL, it's still limited by the quality of the printer and the skill of the person printing it, which can rarely produce details as sharply
-most people don't have a 3D printer and paying somebody to print it for you isn't often significantly cheaper, unless it's a centerpiece model (which most people would rather get the official version)
-Peer pressure, both from real peers and from the way GW portrays the game in marketing. People are obsessed with playing the game "the right way" which usually involves playing it as advertised. Most tournaments will allow you to use 3D printed miniatures and proxies, but most players don't even realize it. Even then, most players don't play in tournaments. But all it takes is one dude screaming about how bad 3D prints are and a whole community will avoid using them.

Blightzkrieg posted...

GW lost their court case regarding rip off models pretty badly, so they can't do anything about it.

It comes down to a few things:
-3D printed models usually aren't as good as GW plastic in 99% of cases. Even when you have a perfect STL, it's still limited by the quality of the printer and the skill of the person printing it, which can rarely produce details as sharply
-most people don't have a 3D printer and paying somebody to print it for you isn't often significantly cheaper, unless it's a centerpiece model (which most people would rather get the official version)
-Peer pressure, both from real peers and from the way GW portrays the game in marketing. People are obsessed with playing the game "the right way" which usually involves playing it as advertised. Most tournaments will allow you to use 3D printed miniatures and proxies, but most players don't even realize it. Even then, most players don't play in tournaments. But all it takes is one dude screaming about how bad 3D prints are and a whole community will avoid using them.

"Nonono, I want to pay 5x for something that's roughly the same quality"

Blightzkrieg posted...

GW lost their court case regarding rip off models pretty badly, so they can't do anything about it.

Yes, but:


Blightzkrieg posted...

Peer pressure, both from real peers and from the way GW portrays the game in marketing. People are obsessed with playing the game "the right way" which usually involves playing it as advertised. Most tournaments will allow you to use 3D printed miniatures and proxies, but most players don't even realize it. Even then, most players don't play in tournaments. But all it takes is one dude screaming about how bad 3D prints are and a whole community will avoid using them.

This is sort of what I was implying.

Even if GW doesn't really have legal grounds to punish people for doing it, that doesn't necessarily stop them from making the threat (which may intimidate people into not being willing to take the risk). This is similar to how companies will send cease and desist orders to creators who fall firmly into fair use - you don't have to be able to win a case if the mere threat of it causes people to stop doing what you don't want them to.

And constantly talking about how terrible third-party figures are or how they aren't acceptable for play is part of what influences the mindset of the fanbase to avoid them. The "one dude" you mentioned basically thinks that way in large part because GW have constantly encouraged him to think that way. Again, it's similar to how WotC demonizes third-party reprint cards sold on Amazon and pushes to keep them from ever being valid in tournaments, because they absolutely MUST foster the mindset that the only acceptable way to play is to keep giving them hundreds of dollars every year for official sets and cards. Both to fuel their own revenue directly, but also to appease the collectors' market (which is a huge source of income for them).

I'm not saying GW actually has the power to come to your house and kick in your door if you're 3D printing figures, but they certainly want you to THINK they will. Because if they can foster that implication (or the implication that you're a "bad fan" if you do it), then fewer people will be willing to do it.

I think what people are concerned about is showing up to a game store or event and being publically shamed for using 3D printed models. If anything the reality is the opposite (I've received nothing but praise over 3D prints I've used) but most Warhammer players, especially newer players, are socially awkward and don't want to make a splash.

Even C&Ds have largely disappeared from the 3D printed marketplace. It's not something GW has any legal right to currently so they've given up. It's not something that represents an immediate threat to them so long as they control the medium.

Dikitain posted...

A lot of systems (I.E. ones not owned by GW or WotC) tend to just require a book. Some of them don't require anything at all and you can get the rules through a PDF. Battletech lets you play games with just little scraps of paper representing your army if you like. The miniatures are just for the people who want them and in no way are required to play the game. Shadowrun has one book for DMs and players, and even that is only "required" if you are playing past level 5.

I have a friend who played competitive 40k a very long time ago, and he said the main reason that people pride themselves on their army is one for props and because in competition it's not just about winning, you are also judged on sportsmanship and how good your army looks.

So unlike most competitions where only winning matters 40k has multiple categories, and even someone that only performed mediocre in wins at a tournament could win the whole thing if they nail the other categories. Keep in mind he played in the era before 3d printers were a thing so you basically paid GW's prices or didn't play.

Zareth posted...

99% of 40k ripoff models are garbage. Also resin sucks ass to work with.

Have you ever actually tried 3D printing? Resin modelling has come a long way, even in the last ~20 years. The resin used in 3D printing is actually pretty user-friendly, especially if you're using the water-washable stuff.

As for the quality of the models, sure, there's garbage out there, but there's also some pretty damn amazing ones that aren't particularly hard to find. Hell, you can get 3D-scanned copies of the real deal if you know where to look.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Mainly because GW constantly threatens to sue for theft of intellectual property and screams about how rip-off models aren't tournament legal.

Well, given the ubiquity of 40k, BFG, and WFB rip-off models on virtually every 3D model site in existence, those threats of lawsuits don't seem to be deterring too many people. And sure, they ban non-GW models from their official tournaments (and have done for ages)... but so what? 99% of their customers aren't tournament players and never will be. Losing out on official GW events isn't much of a deterrent from where I sit.

Hence why I say I don't know why most people are willing to put up with GW's shit.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

It's entirely possible their current practices (rebooting entire lines and selling everything at vastly overinflated prices) is because they know the gravy train isn't going to last much longer before it runs out. So they're trying to rake in as much revenue as they can now before the bottom falls out.

Possible, sure, but those reboots have significant up-front investments (making new casts for models and producing inventory isn't exactly cheap), so they're really gambling hard on that strategy working.

Honestly, what's annoying about this is that if GW pulled their head out of their ass for two seconds, they could realize that they could be taking advantage of this new market and raking in money hand-over-fist from it.

If I was in GW's shoes, I would set up an official section on my website for 3D modellers. Tell everyone that they can sell their GW-knockoffs there, with GW taking a cut of the profit and highlighting the most popular/highest quality ones. You could even offer an in-store service for people without 3D printers, where they can put together an order of 3D prints and GW staff would print them out on official GW printers (for a substantial mark-up, because this is still GW we're talking about here). GW could basically outsource a huge part of their model design, production, and distribution and basically get handed a bunch of money for next to zero effort on their part, and their customers would get the peace-of-mind that these were officially sanctioned models that could be used in tournaments and had at least some form of quality control.

But no, because GW is perpetually dumb, they just insist on selling chunks of overdesigned plastic sprue for $200 a pop.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

And let's be honest, most people aren't going to have 3D printers anyway. It's still fairly niche technology for the average consumer.

If you have the time, space, and money to pursue Warhammer as a hobby, you absolutely have the time, space, and money to set up a decent 3D printer.

3D printing has improved substantially in terms of accessibility over the last few years. These days, a set-up for an entry level printer - which is good enough for 90% of what you'd be using it for for Warhammer - with the various recommended accessories (curing station, UT cleaner) is maybe $350 - $400. That's, like, two large models at GW's current prices. And the models that come out of a 3D printer need substantially less clean-up and assembly than GW's plastic models.

Honestly, the biggest drawback to 3D printing at the moment is that most of the software tools you use to set-up prints are still not particularly user friendly. But it's really not that niche anymore and it's only going to get more mainstream as time goes on.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Even if GW doesn't really have legal grounds to punish people for doing it, that doesn't necessarily stop them from making the threat (which may intimidate people into not being willing to take the risk). This is similar to how companies will send cease and desist orders to creators who fall firmly into fair use - you don't have to be able to win a case if the mere threat of it causes people to stop doing what you don't want them to.

Thing is, it's a game of whack-a-mole for them and one they can't win - and they're well aware of that.

First of all, as you mentioned, GW largely can't stop 3D works that are "based on" their games, unless they're straight-up 3D scans of the official models (which, incidentally, also aren't particularly hard to find), so they know that all they can do is threaten; if it winds up in court, they're likely to lose.

Secondly, most of the people selling these scans aren't big companies, they're a couple of dudes in Eastern Europe who know how to use 3D modelling software. Thus, even if GW *could* take this to court and win, it would be prohibitively expensive for them to do so and they'd never have a hope of recouping their costs.

Third, unlike in the days of yore, what they're banning now isn't physical goods, but shapefiles, which are just data. As the music industry and the video gaming industry before them have learned, it's awfully hard to ban data, because once a file is out there, it's trivially easy for people to start sharing it around in ways that are almost impossible for you to stop.

Ye olden times when GW could just sic its lawyers on some poor start-up studio don't work in the modern age, because unlike back then it's not just a handful of other small-to-medium-size companies that are trying to elbow in on your niche, it's thousands of tiny operations. Each CaD you send out costs you some of your lawyer's time and those bills will start to pile up very quickly while you barely make a dent in the market.