Current Events > 12-year old suspected car thief killed in shootout with owner

(+) Yeah! (+)

Also, fuck all of you for implying i'm just some sort of dead inside logic machine playing devil's advocate. I've done nothing to provoke such comments.

Every post this guy makes just gets more and more disgusting

COVxy posted...

That poster literally said it was self defense trying to take back their property. Do your best to try to read before calling other people disengenuous.

They shot at him...

COVxy posted...

That poster literally said it was self defense trying to take back their property. Do your best to try to read before calling other people disengenuous.

wouldn't it be, if he was fired upon first? but no matter what, it all comes down to assumptions and ifs, because we obviously don't have all the information. not worth the time to argue about. just sad that literal children are getting caught up in this shit

Jagr_68 posted...

Meh, his devil's advocate excuse holds no water.

Kid was an accomplice or perp among gang.
Owner was trying to get the car back from thieves.
Shootout occured between parties.
Kid gets shot, dies.

Tragic ending but what is the argument here? Sentence car owner to prison 30 years for self defense taking back his stolen vehicle?

Personally I fail to see how this was self defense. The owner wasn't near the car at the time. He went after it and then a gunfight broke out. So he ran a few steps. What's the limit here? Is it still self defense if they drove off and he followed them 10 miles away to a chop shop and killed them there?

A_Good_Boy posted...

People get mad when you steal their shit man, I don't know why you're acting so shocked about it.

Being mad isn't justification for fucking snuffing out a 12yo's life.

viewmaster_pi posted...

just sad that literal children are getting caught up in this shit

Well, other posters in the topic certainly aren't sad about it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6sbPCIEMyI

cjsdowg posted...

Did OJ go to jail for stealing his stuff back ?

Not so much that but kidnapping and assault.

COVxy posted...

Being mad isn't justification for fucking snuffing out a 12yo's life.

Until the police come out with more information regarding the shooting I don't feel like it's fair to blame the altercation entirely on the adult. Regardless of whether the kids had a gun or not, regardless of if they shot first or not, it was a scenario that was started entirely because they stole that dude's car first. If you don't want to get shot because you stole a dude's car then don't steal his car and you won't get shot.

FAQ-Checker posted...

Big mistake.

Depending on what he and the kid looked like. I am not saying this as a joke.

I guess it ultimately comes down to who shot first. The article says they believe other people were in the car, so the 12-year-old may not have fired at all. The owner of the car was a fool for approaching the vehicle with people in it though

viewmaster_pi posted...

wouldn't it be, if he was fired upon first? but no matter what, it all comes down to assumptions and ifs, because we obviously don't have all the information. not worth the time to argue about. just sad that literal children are getting caught up in this shit

If some dude approaches you with a gun, it could be reasonably seen as self defense for you to shoot at him, depending on details. Like, even if the 12yo shot, and did so first, there are many reasonably plausible circumstances where the 12yo shooting at the owner would be self defense.

There's a reason authorities should be called, and why authorities have to identify themselves prior to approaching.

I have two things to say.
Firstly, Covxy dint argued with Good Boy. I've found it to be an effort in frustration and futility.
Second, everything right now is speculation and conjecture. We simply don't have enough info to accurately represent what happened.

Bonus: ACAB and it's disgusting that some people are borderline celebrating the death of a fucking child. "Serves him right" should never be the response to a Dead. Child.

COVxy posted...

Like, even if the 12yo shot, and did so first, there are many reasonably plausible circumstances where the 12yo shooting at the owner would be self defense.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/4/2/5/AAam6dAAEKtJ.jpg

DirkDiggles posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/4/2/5/AAam6dAAEKtJ.jpg

Let's make it easier for you. Let's say you and your pal are chilling out. He takes your phone out of your hand and says "i'm taking this from you now". You respond by going into another room, and grabbing a gun and coming back to him, demanding he give back your phone or else. Does your friend feel like his life is in imminant danger? If he reacted by pulling a gun and shooting you, is he entirely culpable? Or was he just reacting to a threat on his life?

Perhaps he even reacted before you said "give it back or else" because he saw an angry dude approaching him with a gun!

It might be easier for you to reason about this if you aren't picturing a little gangbanger as the target.

COVxy posted...

Let's say you and your pal are chilling out.

...dude what the fuck? i just said you were disingenuous and twisting things, and now your idea of getting your point across is changing the situation to a dude and his pal chilling out? fucking stop

Stop trying to make the kid innocent in your made up fantasy. Life isn't made up of sunshine and rainbows like you would believe. This kid and his "gangbanger friends" stole this car and was going to do God knows what with it.

viewmaster_pi posted...

...dude what the fuck? i just said you were disingenuous and twisting things, and now your idea of getting your point across is changing the situation to a dude and his pal chilling out? fucking stop

Analogical reasoning, how does it work?

Literally the point I'm making is irrespective of the specific scenario. That's the point of the analogy. To take the scenario out of it and get down to the "if some angry dude approaches you with a gun and you shoot him, even if you are in the middle of stealing his shit, that is totally reasonably self defense"

Fucking LAWL @ admitting it was the kid's fault for shooting at the guy first but still pushing the idea the person shouldn't suffer the consequences for it.

Both people made their choices. It's nonsensical and illogical how this event transpired but it happened that way.

COVxy posted...

"if some angry dude approaches you with a gun and you shoot him, even if you are in the middle of stealing his shit, that is totally reasonably self defense"

is it actually? do you give cops that same benefit of the doubt?

viewmaster_pi posted...

is it actually? do you give cops that same benefit of the doubt?

I know it's a tall ask for cops to behave better than 12 year olds but I think it should still be required

viewmaster_pi posted...

is it actually?

I mean, ethically you have felony murder charges that complicate things, and I don't claim to be an expert in those laws. They may apply here, they may not. Usually I see those laws applied in circumstances when one person kills someone intentionally and the other perp also gets charged with the murder under the felony murder statute despite not being part of the murdering, or they instigate a shoot out and the cross fire kills somebody.

But morally, absolutely.

Tyranthraxus posted...

I know it's a tall ask for cops to behave better than 12 year olds but I think it should still be required

lol, my point is just that people don't usually accept "he was angry and scary" as a reasonable explanation for cops that shoot first and say it was self defense, so using that to justify someone commiting grand theft auto to shoot first is... pretty flimsy, at best

viewmaster_pi posted...

lol, my point is just that people don't usually accept "he was angry and scary" as a reasonable explanation for cops that shoot first and say it was self defense, so using that to justify someone commiting grand theft auto to shoot first is... pretty flimsy, at best

If the person is armed and seems like they are about to harm others? Absolutely they do. Wtf are you going on about?

meestermj posted...

Firstly, Covxy dint argued with Good Boy. I've found it to be an effort in frustration and futility.

Who are you?

FAQ-Checker posted...

Sure it does.

The irony of your name

A_Good_Boy posted...

Who are you?

I wasn't trying to being up past shit. We've argued in the past across a handful of topics, and i tagged you so i could remember to avoid certain topics.
So long as I don't engage on those topics it's really pleasant posting with you.

COVxy posted...

Being mad isn't justification for fucking snuffing out a 12yo's life.

TBF, youre never thinking that person who stole your car and is shooting at you as a 12 year old. As a father this is very sad, but its a natural consequence of the kids decision. His parents should be held accountable to some point.

viewmaster_pi posted...

lol, my point is just that people don't usually accept "he was angry and scary" as a reasonable explanation for cops that shoot first and say it was self defense, so using that to justify someone commiting grand theft auto to shoot first is... pretty flimsy, at best

And my point is defenses that are okay for a 12 year old don't have to be okay for adult cops.

You have no idea what that kid has been through or what could have happened to him if he didn't go along with that gang. It's a perfectly reasonable assumption that the kid could have shot the owner in self defense and the rest of the gang get charged with felony murder while the kid goes to foster care.

I am not saying that's exactly what would have happened but it's not even a reach that things could have turned out that way. People here mostly just passing some extremely harsh judgements on a 12 year old kid who no longer has any ability to defend himself just because his friends tried to steal a car.

COVxy posted...

If the person is armed and seems like they are about to harm others? Absolutely they do. Wtf are you going on about?

wtf i'm going on about is that people rarely unanimously agree about these things and whether or not the person really seems like a threat or what.

furthermore, i find it hard to believe this dude would want to pop shots into his own fucking car

This 12 year old reminds me of this 11 year old gangster from like 30 years ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sandifer

Whose fucking alt

COVxy posted...

Property doesn't have rights, like "self-defense". You do not get to murder people to retrieve stolen goods.

For some, their vehicle is their livelihood. This is an unfortunate event, but it's not as black and white as you want it to be.

Casually rolling up to the topic suggesting murder is a reasonable consequence for stealing.

... just ce things...

Several different ways this can go depending on if the guy is being truthful. If it turns out he shot first without provocation/was the only shooter, I imagine he'll eventually be charged with murder. If the kid did have a gun and flashed it/fired first, then I assume there should be no issue. Unless you're not legally allowed to approach your own stolen property or something, I don't see anything wrong with the second case, even if it's ill-advised and pretty stupid to do.

I swear to go the people are now phrelosfully repeating the same thing about th Enid having a gun and shooting when there were multiple people in the car.

Kid was probably sound guys younger brother who get dragged into this whole shit but do t let that stop people celebrating a kid got shot and probably didnt even deserve it.

Dang, RIP

I wish people put the same kind of energy they're putting into being angry at the car owner towards the people who put a 12-year-old in harm's way by letting him get to the point where he was involved in an armed carjacking.

You should be angry at the owner. You should be furious at the parents.

Sucks that a 12 year old died but a car is not just somebody's regular ol possession. Some people's livelihoods are literally tied to whether or not they have a car to get around in. I'm gonna assume this doesn't apply to the guy who was robbed since he tracked them down immediately, but hopefully this is a lesson to the other morons involved to stop fucking around with random people's cars

MacadamianNut3 posted...

Sucks that a 12 year old died but a car is not just somebody's regular ol possession. Some people's livelihoods are literally tied to whether or not they have a car to get around in. I'm gonna assume this doesn't apply to the guy who was robbed since he tracked them down immediately, but hopefully this is a lesson to the other morons involved to stop fucking around with random people's cars

Just to be clear. I want you to state it explicitly. You are saying a car is such an important piece of property that murder is an appropriate response to its theft? Should our justice system put the death penalty in play for car theft cases?

Guy shouldnt have chased to get his car back. If he has the ability to track it, then he likely has insurance to cover it. This is a Zimmerman style case, he went out and played vigilante, and was in the wrong for doing it

Where was the kids parents when he was roaming the streets and stealing cars? They need to be brought up on some charges

COVxy posted...

Yeah, after being approached by some dude with a gun. It's also unclear the order of events, as is noted in OP. Car owner could have shot first.

So stop acting like you know the kid didnt shoot first. Glass half full vs glass half empty. Were you there?

Even if he didn't know there was a kid involved, the owner - a grown adult with a presumably fully developed brain - left the house willing to put his life and others on the line for property. I can't give him the benefit of the doubt or excuse his actions knowing he chose violence when he didn't have to. Maybe more info about the extent of the child's involvement will change my perspective.

this wouldn't have happened if he could have downloaded a car

COVxy posted...

want you to state it explicitly. You are saying a car is such an important piece of property that murder is an appropriate response to its theft? Should our justice system put the death penalty in play for car theft cases?

These are dumb questions. Murder isn't an appropriate response to a lot of things, doesn't mean it's not going to happen when someone messes around with someone else's property. And trying to sit back like a robot playing the purely rational card doesn't do jack. The 12 y/o kid isn't a part of the justice system, neither is the guy who popped him thinking "Oh golly gee the death penalty is not a punishment for car theft almost forgot whoopsie doopsie". I said nothing about the guy who shot him not deserving whatever charges are coming his way. So no I don't think the death penalty should be in play for car theft, stop being dense.

To a far lesser degree, I'm pretty sure beating the shit out of somebody taking something out of your shopping cart you haven't even paid for yet isn't an appropriate response, but anybody with an ounce of common sense would know that getting a fist to the face is on the table if you were to pull that little maneuver during Black Friday or a food/supply shortage. But yeah let's go ahead and have somebody make a law against doing that too.

MacadamianNut3 posted...

These are dumb questions

No, they are questions that make explicit what you would rather leave implicit in your post.

"This isn't just any ol property" is literally a sentence that only exists to justify the extreme actions of the owner. Why did you say that if that's not what you meant?

MacadamianNut3 posted...

Murder isn't an appropriate response to a lot of things, doesn't mean it's not going to happen when someone messes around with someone else's property.

And when that happens you don't say "well, fuck around and find out kid" unless you believe that the murder is justified. You say "that was fucked". You came into this topic and replied to a post that said property doesn't have the right to self defense with "weeeelll it's a very important piece of property..."

What is the implication you are making other than "well this actually seems justified"?

COVxy posted...

"This isn't just any ol property" is literally a sentence that only exists to justify the extreme actions of the owner. Why did you say that if that's not what you meant?

I mean exactly that. A car is not just typical property and some people will go to extreme lengths for it. Whether it's somebody stealing it in the first place or preventing a theft. It's really not that deep

COVxy posted...

What is the implication you are making other than "well this actually seems justified"?

Stop fucking around with other people's property that they put a lot of value in because not everybody is going to have the rational response to you doing that. Carjackers getting shot or thieves getting tracked down and shot is nothing remotely new.

Anything else

Idk how you can't see that your posts only seem to be blaming the 12 yo child for their murder and justifying the actions of the owner.