Board 8 > Tekken Mafia Topic 4 - Round 2... FIGHT!

(+) Yeah! (+)

To clarify for Kirby

Ulti on page 2 of topic 1 said Lea reacted badly to his jokevote
Its only when he started claiming to be King that he suddenly started being all 'I will give you my power'

Seeing it again
Still dont like Plum trying to downplay the Sbell/Ulti conversation as them both being loudwrong.

Minor note, Ulti seemed to forget that he promised his power to Lea since he offered it to IGCD again
lol

htaeD posted...

Minor note, Ulti seemed to forget that he promised his power to Lea since he offered it to IGCD again
lol

Where did he offer me a power? I was under the assumption it was always promised to Lea.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


The argument is less so that you're a skilled player and so it's suspicious that you're alive (and that's not to downplay your skill at Mafia, which you definitely have).

The argument is more that, "Lea was a huge factor in getting Ulti lynched, so on top of her innate Mafia skills, she also looks really good from that lynch, so it's weird that she didn't get killed last night, especially if scum has a Strongman". Couple that with Sbell looking fairly good after Ulti flipped, and he's the one who died, not you.

The evidence on the table seems to imply that scum had an extra kill at least, and those EKs tend to be Strongman... so the only reasons I can see why you'd be alive is:

1) Lopen is right and you're actually scum (unlikely)
2) Scum is banking on Lopen leading a mislynch on you (plausible, but very convoluted and risky)

Because docfear definitely can't be it if scum has a Strongman. Which I suppose is another possibility -- their EK isn't a Strongman kill (starting to think this might be the case). Could it be possible scum was Doc hunting?

Mobile is acting up on me so i apologize for the ugliness here.

Kirby said...

.. Hold on. Looking back on what I posted, maybe I didn't clarify something properly.

I brought up Ulti never suspecting Lea as reason that she is more or less confirmed Town, Peaf, because that's an important contradiction to Ulti's behavior at the end of Day 1, where he outright suspected Lea.

Ok, let's take a step back.

Peace___Frog posted...

It sounds to me like Kirby knows a lot more info than is publicly known. Ulti was scum so trusting in any of his "he didn't suspect this person" and then using it to make some actual player assessment is pretty wild!

This isn't like "oh Ulti and lea are linked" which is lopen's argument. This from Kirby says "well Ulti honestly thought Lea was town so what can we do with that info".

This is my interpretation of events based on how you yourself characterized ulti's actions, here:

Kirby321 posted...

Ulti never suspected Lea, and this just proves he thought she was Town. A bit of a redundant case since this just punches further holes in whatever stunt Ulti tried to pull off yesterday, but I think this further makes Lea look good.

You're now saying that you're operating off of what Ulti said his reads were, and his flip flop on lea is what convinced you he was scum? I guess I'm struggling with why it took you so many words and playing around at the edges of the conversation to just... say that.

Do you feel like you need to defend your d1 actions retroactively like this? You had already had your vote on ulti early yesterday. I get that you're defending lea from lopen, but it feels like you're taking a lot of jumps to get to some pretty basic things.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Where did he offer me a power? I was under the assumption it was always promised to Lea.

Eh I am phrasing it badly

He offered you to choose his target

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Where did he offer me a power? I was under the assumption it was always promised to Lea.

IIRC didn't Ulti say something about, "IGCD, you get to choose who I target tonight"

I believe that might be what Death was getting at

If they had a strongman its possible that scum were worried that protection would cover Sbell or Lea and they just strongman shot Sbell over Lea for who knows what reason.
And/or maybe we have the shooter in our lynch-sights already and they could not wait any longer on using it.

I really dont think not being killed incriminates Lea all that much.

Going to D&D and will be sparsely available otherwise, so if it helps, someone definitely DID go to Lea's last night other than me. I can only assume a flavor of protection, given the two dead.

Raven, Town Watcher. I've been breadcrumbing it. Good luck and don't let the even-more-inactives get off scott-free.

Peace___Frog posted...

You're now saying that you're operating off of what Ulti said his reads were, and his flip flop on lea is what convinced you he was scum? I guess I'm struggling with why it took you so many words and playing around at the edges of the conversation to just... say that.

Do you feel like you need to defend your d1 actions retroactively like this? You had already had your vote on ulti early yesterday. I get that you're defending lea from lopen, but it feels like you're taking a lot of jumps to get to some pretty basic things.

That's... not at all what I was saying. I thought Ulti was scum initially because of the whole "Sbell perspective slipped" thing, further exacerbated by his claim of "I'm King. My flavor says that Ctes only has one main but it's not King." It's the flavor claim that really hammered the nail into Ulti's coffin for me.

That has nothing to do with what I posted today. We know Ulti is scum. That is fact, unless MISHIMA ZAIBATSU is somehow not scum.

Given that Ulti is without a doubt 100% scum, reviewing the post I highlighted where he said Lea was town further cements my thoughts that Lea is town because Ulti completely went back on that without any reason whatsoever. The flip-flop isn't what makes Ulti scum. It's because Ulti is scum that the flip-flop makes Lea look town. It was totally unprompted and didn't seem coordinated at all. Therefore, Ulti's argument against Lea was 100% BS, so Lea is very likely telling the truth about her flavor being Ctes' main, unless Ulti and Lea planned this whole thing from the very start with Lea laying down the foundations for claiming Lili, which doesn't seem likely given that Ulti clearly didn't have a smooth pivot in mind for attacking Lea.

The emphasis is not on "this is why Kirby thought Ulti was scum on Day 1".
The emphasis is on "based on what Ulti did yesterday and knowing that he is without a doubt scum, this is why Lea is town"

Does that make sense now? I implore you to look at my posts holistically instead of looking at the arguments individually in the way they were presented. Perhaps I'm not wording my thoughts properly, but look at my conclusions and then work backward from there if that makes more sense.

I feel like I should have paid more attention to Isquen because then I would know how cornered he might have felt for him to make a claim like that!

Isquen why did you claim

Why

Also wait, who targeted Lea?

htaeD posted...

Also wait, who targeted Lea?

Given that it was likely the Doctor... that's probably not a good thing to reveal, Death.

Oh right, derp

My mind just reeled from seeing an incomplete claim.

Instead I will echo Lea's question

Because I'm more convinced of the visitor's towniness than yours, though I still ain't 100% either way.

Also I suck at acting and would rather spare a last minute claim if it's going to draw a shot from elsewhere.

For the record you didn't need to do this at all Isquen. You werent gonna be lynched. (at least not to my knowledge)
Scum has no roleblocker anymore, and I doubt they would have shot you.

I am admittedly surprised Lopens contributions towards bringing down Ulti arent talked about as much.

I think this explains the "wtf did you just say to me" reaction that isq had when ben made his tidus comment.

Yeah i definitely buy the claim, and i like that he didn't share the full info. Death's reaction is one i do not like.

Oh

Actually that was a fine claim.

Scum is kind of screwed here. RB is dead, they may have used their second shot, and Isquen knows who protection is.

Isquen can just watch the protection and the protection saves isquen. Its a lock. Scum can't break it unless they have a ninja (Which I suppose is possible, but if they don't they are in huge trouble)

Yeah yeah I typed before I thought it through

In hindsight I should have just asked if he could see the person who visited Lea at all, because for a moment I wondered if he was a watcher who could only detect motion or something.

Kirby gets points for correcting me

I buy Isquens claim. Between this and death saying ultis fakeclaim like a foregone conclusion before the flip, feeling less good about death now.

Isquen dies unless he says who targeted Lea. Simple a

S that.

Oh hey, it is corrik acting scummy again

Oh no
oh no I almost became Corrik apparently

The person that visited Lea is assuredly scum. So, if Isquen doesn't wanna claim, he can die for being anti-town. I don't give a fuck. I'll shoot a town watcher who is anti-town if he doesn't wanna play the role right so they learn better next time.

Isquen does not need to reveal who visited Lea wtf

##Vote: Corrik

Two people die and someone visits Lea and Lea did not die and you think the person who visited Lea is scum? Uhhh

Doesnt it make way more sense the doctor went to Lea and now youre threatening Isquen to divulge who it is

Coriks last two posts have been almost polar opposites of what I would expect from town corrik

Corrik7 posted...

Plum looks so obviously scum and in bed with Ulti that he almost has to be town. Plum being that poor and obvious as scum would be jarring to the point that it just has to be Plum took the wrong stances day 1. In regards to ulti, saying I tied myself to ulti, etc. This isn't surefire, but does Plum consider Ulti a lost cause and go to backend trying to tie me to ulti while haphazardly defending ulti at the same time. I think Plum was completely lost.

This felt like a scum corrik post.

I would expect "Yeah, Plum is town" here from a town corrik. This is too much detail put in a sensible way.

Then the isquen vote is also bad. Town corrik would once again be thinking ahead and realize that scum isquen claiming like that makes no sense. What is achieved by outing protection? Do you think scum is going to gambit claiming the target on lea in the future? In order for that to work both isquen and the person who targeted Lea have to be dead. That isn't happening tomorrow at the very latest, unless you think scum is going to ... counter claim the target? In that case that counterclaim of protection will work itself out.

In other words, Corrik is spending a lot of effort thinking about things that don't need to be thought about and not a lot of effort about things town effort would be thinking about. This isn't lining up.

Kirby321 posted...

Isquen does not need to reveal who visited Lea wtf

##Vote: Corrik

Then he can die, and town can mislynch me after for killing him. Idc. If someone wants to claim watcher and not claim their results, they deserve it.

I never said Isquen is scum, Plum. I said I am going to shoot him knowing he is town if he doesn't stop playing anti-town and his role wrong. You either don't claim at all or you claim all your information.

I can get on board with assuming the person targeting Lea was protection. I suppose that leaves Plum.

##Unvote
##Vote: Plum

Telling us someone visited Lea is good enough information for Isquen to provide right now imo. I could maybe see things your way Corrik if someone had claimed town vig on the Sbell or Ben flip but that didnt happen. It all likelihood it was the doc who visited Lea

wallmasterz posted...

Telling us someone visited Lea is good enough information for Isquen to provide right now imo. I could maybe see things your way Corrik if someone had claimed town vig on the Sbell or Ben flip but that didnt happen. It all likelihood it was the doc who visited Lea

I visited Lea last night. He didn't know that because he is bullshiting. So he is fake claiming. The question is why? Because as plum said, it doesn't make sense as scum. So, he is being anti-town af.

Corrik why couldn't a townrole have targeted Lea?

Yeah but I what

Actually why am I even believing that

Corrik7 posted...

I visited Lea last night. He didn't know that because he is bullshiting. So he is fake claiming. The question is why? Because as plum said, it doesn't make sense as scum. So, he is being anti-town af.

What

None of this makes sense anyway

The thing to do here if Corrik is not lying (X to doubt!) would be to sametime with Isquen