Current Events > EVs are not the future

(+) Yeah! (+)

Tube teleportation please

Tyranthraxus posted...

Hydrogen Fuel Cells are superior in every way to EVs. Problem is lack of Alternative Fueling stations. Most people just don't live near a place where they can gas up.

How are they superior? EVs can charge anywhere there is electricity (i.e. pretty much everywhere). In a pinch, you can use a regular outlet and future cars (if this feature doesn't already exist) will let you connect to another vehicle to transfer a charge, so you'll never be completely abandoned. Meanwhile hydrogen fuel cell can refuel only in California and even then only a small area of California. The only advantage is the speed of the "recharge/refuel" but that is completely negated by the dearth of stations. Good luck setting up hydrogen stations all around the country. It took a long time just to set up the network of gas stations we have all around the country and hydrogen is much more difficult to store and transport.

1337toothbrush posted...

Good luck setting up hydrogen stations all around the country.

Pass regulation says all commercial gas stations must have 1 hydrogen pump per every 5 locations.

Scale it from there.

Problem solved.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Pass regulation says all commercial gas stations must have 1 hydrogen pump per every 5 locations.

Scale it from there.

Problem solved.

Are you joking? If you're serious, hydrogen isn't pumped from the ether. Imagine the insanity of forcing gas stations to install specialized leak-proof tanks to store hydrogen with high compression and also to set up distribution networks. If you're going through that much trouble, you might as well put in more than one pump. What you're proposing is like saying we should pass regulation that landfills must be able to store nuclear waste, then we can "scale it from there". There are numerous special considerations you're not taking into account.

1337toothbrush posted...

Are you joking? If you're serious, hydrogen isn't pumped from the ether. Imagine the insanity of forcing gas stations to install specialized leak-proof tanks to store hydrogen with high compression and also to set up distribution networks. If you're going through that much trouble, you might as well put in more than one pump. What you're proposing is like saying we should pass regulation that landfills must be able to store nuclear waste, then we can "scale it from there". There are numerous special considerations you're not taking into account.

Hydrogen processing facilities are actually fairly common the only thing that doesn't exist is a way to pump it into your car. The average person lives about 100 miles away from a hydrogen processing plant. It's just not helpful in the same way you don't drive to an oil refinery to pump petrol.

Jiek_Fafn posted...

Wasn't there some super breakthrough on batteries involving salt or something a year or two ago? I haven't heard anything about it since, so I'm going to assume it was a lot about nothing

Saltwater batteries.
They're basically superior to lithium in every possible way AND cheaper and way less environmentally harmful and don't rely on mining from a select few countries that have a majority of the resource and tend to be authoritarian...

...except in the one problem that they require significantly more physical space than a lithium battery for the same energy density.

I wish they'd start implementing saltwater batteries where they make sense. I'd gladly stick a giant saltwater battery in my basement as a solar cell backup storage method. Instead, we just fucking use lithium for everything... If it was reserved only for EVs and other applications where space is at a premium, there'd be way less demand on it.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Hydrogen processing facilities are actually fairly common the only thing that doesn't exist is a way to pump it into your car. The average person lives about 100 miles away from a hydrogen processing plant. It's just not helpful in the same way you don't drive to an oil refinery to pump petrol.

I like how you bring up something that is irrelevant and then point out that it's irrelevant.

1337toothbrush posted...

I like how you bring up something that is irrelevant and then point out that it's irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant.

The biggest problem, which you outlined here:

1337toothbrush posted...

hydrogen isn't pumped from the ether.

Has already been solved.

All you need to do now is ship tanks to gas stations and have then install a pump compatible with vehicles.

Graphene batteries look very promising. They're still relatively new but from what I've read they dramatically outperform lithium batteries. Significantly faster charging as well as higher capacity. Being new makes them expensive but if they can bring down the costs these might be a good option for electric vehicles.

TentacleDemon posted...

Graphene batteries look very promising. They're still relatively new but from what I've read they dramatically outperform lithium batteries. Significantly faster charging as well as higher capacity. Being new makes them expensive but if they can bring down the costs these might be a good option for electric vehicles.

I remember being in the 5th grade when I first heard about the magic of graphene. I'm an old man now and still see the same headlines while seemingly no closer to them being real.

Tyranthraxus posted...

It's not irrelevant.

The biggest problem, which you outlined here:

Has already been solved.

All you need to do now is ship tanks to gas stations and have then install a pump compatible with vehicles.

The tanks and the systems that revolve around them are complex and require maintenance. It's not as simple as you make it out to be. Do you even know where they'd put the tank and pump system?

1337toothbrush posted...

The tanks and the systems that revolve around them are complex and require maintenance. It's not as simple as you make it out to be. Do you even know where they'd put the tank and pump system?

It would have to be installed at cost to the gas station, 1 for every 5 is my beginning proposal. It could be partially subsidized by the government and would open new income to gas stations.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Has already been solved.

All you need to do now is ship tanks to gas stations and have then install a pump compatible with vehicles.

So - optimistically - a couple million dollars worth of construction per gas station, times 145,000 gas stations in the US...

Tyanthraxus apparently feels comfortable pulling a quarter trillion dollars of infrastructure out of his ass with a bit of handwavium bullshit.

Jiek_Fafn posted...

Wasn't there some super breakthrough on batteries involving salt or something a year or two ago? I haven't heard anything about it since, so I'm going to assume it was a lot about nothing

Iirc the research stopped because ut doesn't generate enough power, and easily explode when exposed to water.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Thanks Kojima!

willythemailboy posted...

So - optimistically - a couple million dollars worth of construction per gas station, times 145,000 gas stations in the US...

Tyanthraxus apparently feels comfortable pulling a quarter trillion dollars of infrastructure out of his ass with a bit of handwavium bullshit.

It's not a couple million per gas station. You're installing a single pump and renting a tank from a plant. Where the hell did you get the idea that a single hydrogen pump costs 2 million to install?

Building a network of personal trains to each home might be easier than overcoming the oil mafia to pass a bill buying millions of hydrogen pumps so people will feel comfortable buying a type of car no automaker has taken seriously yet.

At least with EVs the infrastructure always existed, you could plug into any existing outlet. And now charging stations only take 15-30 min max.

foreverzero212 posted...

you could plug into any existing outlet. And now charging stations only take 15-30 min max.

You can do one or the other of these. Not both simultaneously.

Fast charging requires a current load far in excess of anything available in homes - 480 volts at 100 amps is not something your house is wired to supply.

Tyranthraxus posted...

It's not a couple million per gas station. You're installing a single pump and renting a tank from a plant. Where the hell did you get the idea that a single hydrogen pump costs 2 million to install?

That's the approximate range that California is literally giving away per station to be converted in an effort to force hydrogen fuel cell vehicles to be commercially viable. Grants of up to $7 million are available per site.

Because of course you can't just convert one pump like you want. At best each station would have to give up half its petrol pumps to make way for a separate set of hydrogen pumps, and most do a full conversion.

willythemailboy posted...

You can do one or the other of these. Not both simultaneously.

Fast charging requires a current load far in excess of anything available in homes - 480 volts at 100 amps is not something your house is wired to supply.

Bro it says at charging stations in the quote. At home where fast charging isn't needed I plug into a regular 110 outlet. It's how I do all of my charging.

willythemailboy posted...

That's the approximate range that California is literally giving away per station to be converted in an effort to force hydrogen fuel cell vehicles to be commercially viable. Grants of up to $7 million are available per site.

Because of course you can't just convert one pump like you want. At best each station would have to give up half its petrol pumps to make way for a separate set of hydrogen pumps, and most do a full conversion.

2.8 million is the cost to build an entirely new location. (Average). Land in prime California areas is a bit more expensive.

I'm talking about just putting commercial pumps in locations that already exist. That's measured in just tens of thousands.

foreverzero212 posted...

I remember being in the 5th grade when I first heard about the magic of graphene. I'm an old man now and still see the same headlines while seemingly no closer to them being real.

CAT has a new line of power tools on the market that make use of graphene battery tech.

https://www.catpowertools.com/technologies/graphene/

Tyranthraxus posted...

2.8 million is the cost to build an entirely new location. (Average). Land in prime California areas is a bit more expensive.

I'm talking about just putting commercial pumps in locations that already exist. That's measured in just tens of thousands.

https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/21002- hydrogen-fueling-station-cost.pdf

The development of hydrogen fueling station (HFS) infrastructure is critical to the growth of the FCEV industry. The U.S. currently has over 45 retail HFSs for FCEVs in operation, primarily in California [2]. The California Energy Commission has been funding the deployment of fueling stations for light-duty FCEVs for over a decade, in support of an initial goal to deploy 100 stations by 2024, which was expanded in 2018 to a goal of 200 stations by 2025 [3]. The stations have been designed to meet the SAE International J2601 fueling standard [4] to ensure the safe dispensing of hydrogen into fuel cell light-duty vehicles. Some of those stations could also safely fuel heavy-duty vehicles. Typically, HFSs are supplied with hydrogen via tube trailers, liquid hydrogen tankers, or onsite production. Hydrogen station designs typically include bulk storage, compression/pumping, high-pressure buffer storage, precooling unit, and dispensers, but vary depending on individual site design configuration. In California, HFSs are normally sited at existing gasoline stations. This record documents estimates for the equipment costs of newly developed hydrogen stations.

Data for this record have been compiled from a review of all funded proposals submitted to the California Grant Funding Opportunity (GFO)-19-602 for construction of hydrogen fueling stations [5]. Table 1 summarizes key cost and design characteristics of stations in funded proposals. Three different station developers were selected. On average, the capacity of the selected stations was significantly greater than the capacity of stations currently in operation. While stations from GFOs since 2012 have an average capacity of 480 kg/day, stations selected in GFO-19-602 ranged in fueling capacity from 770 kg/day to 1,620 kg/day. The larger daily capacity stations are supplied by liquid hydrogen tankers and have four fueling positions while the smaller daily capacity stations are supplied by gaseous tube trailers and have two fueling positions.

Cost attributes varied in detail and range, depending on the reporting company. In some cases, shipping, integration, infrastructure, and commissioning were included within the reported equipment cost. These inconsistencies resulted in a large range in the data set shown.

Across all 111 planned new hydrogen fueling stations, an average hydrogen station has capacity of 1,240 kg/day (median capacity of 1,500 kg/day) and requires approximately $1.9 million in capital (median capital cost of $1.9 million). Table 2 summarizes the costs of these stations, as total (combined total awarded grant and match funding) capital cost and capital cost normalized by station daily fueling capacity. The normalized capital cost varies between $1,200 and $3,000 per kg H2/day ($300$890/kg H2/day per dispenser7 ). Differences in this cost data are largely due to differences in supply mode (i.e., gaseous vs. liquid), daily fueling capacity, and number of dispensers. It is also important to note that actual total costs may vary from those proposed.

Compared to the costs of hydrogen fueling stations in California in prior years, the normalized cost of stations per dispenser has decreased between 77%88% since 2012, likely due to the increase in station daily fueling capacity, along with reductions in fueling components cost (economies of scale). Equipment capital costs ($2016) through 2016 ranged from ~$1,300$7,400/(kg/day) per dispenser and commonly had capacities in the range of 1801,200 kg/day [6]. Historical hydrogen fueling station equipment unit costs, per unit of daily fueling capacity, per dispenser, are plotted in Figure 1.

If you follow the link Table 2 shows the equipment capital cost for the least expensive method (literally a tube truck being parked on premises and connected to a dispenser) being $1.4 million and a full equipment installation including liquid storage being $1.9 to $4.2 million.

Now kindly fuck all the way off with your nonsense.

willythemailboy posted...

If you follow the link Table 2 shows the equipment capital cost for the least expensive method (literally a tube truck being parked on premises and connected to a dispenser) being $1.4 million and a full equipment installation including liquid storage being $1.9 to $4.2 million.

If you kindly follow your own fucking post:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/7/1/AARLwzAAEk6b.jpg

TentacleDemon posted...

CAT has a new line of power tools on the market that make use of graphene battery tech.

https://www.catpowertools.com/technologies/graphene/

CAT is reputable so very intriguing.

But then of course it isn't a graphene battery, it's a graphene (trademark) battery. They insulated a regular battery with graphene material. Doubles the weight and size compared to a regular battery and upon testing provided no improvements aside from a lil cooler and came with a faster charger. Oh well, google still says maybe in another 10 years.

Tyranthraxus posted...

If you kindly follow your own fucking post:

I did. I even helpfully bolded part of it to make sure you noticed. Cost listed is for equipment only.

The "new" part is to distinguish between sites being newly converted vs. preexisting stations which were even more expensive.

I don't get your fascination with an inferior, inherently less efficient technology to the point where you spread obvious lies about it.

willythemailboy posted...

I did. I even helpfully bolded part of it to make sure you noticed. Cost listed is for equipment only.

The "new" part is to distinguish between sites being newly converted vs. preexisting stations which were even more expensive.

I don't get your fascination with an inferior, inherently less efficient technology to the point where you spread obvious lies about it.

Look, here's a breakdown of how much it takes to build a gas station from scratch including land purchase:

https://kobobuilding.com/cost-to-build-a-gas-station/

Final cost is $2.5 million.

I am not talking about this, nor am I talking about converting an existing gas station to an alternative fuel station.

I am talking about adding 1 pump to an existing gas station. While leaving everything else otherwise untouched.

EVs accomplish jack shit. They're just the current trend that Big Oil has used to shift the blame on consumers and to avoid the fact that fossil fuels need to be eradicated from energy production. Its the new "carbon footprint", the new recycling and the new various other big oil scams.

IceCreamOnStero posted...

EVs accomplish jack shit. They're just the current trend that Big Oil has used to shift the blame on consumers and to avoid the fact that fossil fuels need to be eradicated from energy production. Its the new "carbon footprint", the new recycling and the new various other big oil scams.

You got that right bruther. That's why I will only ever drive the biggest baddest most gas guzzlin truck there ever was to stick it to big oil. I aint falling for no fossil fuel corporation pushing their EV baloney on me.

foreverzero212 posted...

You got that right bruther. That's why I will only ever drive the biggest baddest most gas guzzlin truck there ever was to stick it to big oil. I aint falling for no fossil fuel corporation pushing their EV baloney on me.

Funny joke until you actually look at the facts. Energy consumption in the US alone trounces global car emmissions. Is it helping to drive an EV over a regular car? Yeah (though it'd help a lot more if you just weren't driving at all). But the fact is that as long as power stations in developed nations are burning coal and oil, the world will burn. EVs, recycling, carbon footprint etc. are all scams from big oil to distract away from that fact, and to get you feeling like you're being a good little helper instead of demanding the energy grid to go nuclear.

Tyranthraxus posted...

I am talking about adding 1 pump to an existing gas station. While leaving everything else otherwise untouched.

Can't be done in most cases. Full stop. Stop huffing the hopium.

PHEVs were a better solution because they use far fewer lithium batteries and wouldn't require massive infrastructure spending on EV charging. Traveling 40-50 miles without burning fossil fuels would have done more to cut emissions, and it's much cheaper for consumers to switch.

boomgetchopped3 posted...

We basically need an earth shattering breakthrough.

We need trains and public transport.

The Japanese motorcycle manufacturers (Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki) have already committed to working on hydrogen bikes together instead of electric bikes.

I knew electric semi trucks would never work out. There's no way semi trucks can pull over every 500 miles to recharge for 6 hours, it was never going to work.

pretzelcoatl posted...

The Japanese motorcycle manufacturers (Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki) have already committed to working on hydrogen bikes together instead of electric bikes.

I knew electric semi trucks would never work out. There's no way semi trucks can pull over every 500 miles to recharge for 6 hours, it was never going to work.

Trucking is one of the few areas where switching to hydrogen would make sense and, not coincidentally, is the area mindless advocates like Tyranthraxus completely ignore in favor of the consumer market where it doesn't make sense at all.

pretzelcoatl posted...

The Japanese motorcycle manufacturers (Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki) have already committed to working on hydrogen bikes together instead of electric bikes.

I knew electric semi trucks would never work out. There's no way semi trucks can pull over every 500 miles to recharge for 6 hours, it was never going to work.

Meanwhile, this is being worked on in Germany for semis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3P_S7pL7Yg

willythemailboy posted...

Can't be done in most cases. Full stop. Stop huffing the hopium.

There's literally no reason why not. You can even buy one for your house. It's just unaffordable for an average person.

https://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/index.php/home-hydrogen-fueling-stations/

You basically can just stick it in your garage. And this only costs about $325,000. A commercial solution would be even cheaper.

Edit: specs
https://residentialhydrogenpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Specification-8-2019-MRE-SHFA-Model-300.pdf

Tyranthraxus posted...

There's literally no reason why not. You can even buy one for your house. It's just unaffordable for an average person.

https://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/index.php/home-hydrogen-fueling-stations/

You basically can just stick it in your garage. And this only costs about $325,000. A commercial solution would be even cheaper.

Edit: specs
https://residentialhydrogenpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Specification-8-2019-MRE-SHFA-Model-300.pdf

A commercial solution is literally 50 times larger, as specified in my post above. You really think that installation can scale up 50x without the price increasing 5x?

And that's of course assuming the station has the physical space, the prepared slab, and the wiring capable of handling that kind of load. Most have none of those and would require substantial work to get them.

Edit: that commercial solution specified above is for either two or four commercial grade filling stations.

willythemailboy posted...

A commercial solution is literally 50 times larger, as specified in my post above. You really think that installation can scale up 50x without the price increasing 5x?

And that's of course assuming the station has the physical space, the prepared slab, and the wiring capable of handling that kind of load. Most have none of those and would require substantial work to get them.

Edit: that commercial solution specified above is for either two or four commercial grade filling stations.

Starting at 325k, of course. As you can see, they're not very large, they're scalable, or at least so says the sales pitch, for commercial use, way less than $2 million dollars, zero compatibility issues with existing gas station infrastructure.

Obviously you won't be able to fit this in literally every single gas station in the country as those can get kind of small sometimes especially in the big cities, but there's definitely room for them in 20% of the existing gas stations.

I am not sure what the wired slab costs but doubt it's expensive compared to the FC pump.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Starting at 325k, of course. As you can see, they're not very large, they're scalable, or at least so says the sales pitch, for commercial use, way less than $2 million dollars, zero compatibility issues with existing gas station infrastructure.

Obviously you won't be able to fit this in literally every single gas station in the country as those can get kind of small sometimes especially in the big cities, but there's definitely room for them in 20% of the existing gas stations.

I am not sure what the wired slab costs but doubt it's expensive compared to the FC pump.

And for all that you get the capability to fuel... checks notes... five cars a day.

willythemailboy posted...

And for all that you get the capability to fuel... checks notes... five cars a day.

I would be very impressed if the initial adoption rate of FCEVs was so high that even a single station ran out of hydrogen for the next 10 years.

Tyranthraxus posted...

I would be very impressed if the initial adoption rate of FCEVs was so high that even a single station ran out of hydrogen for the next 10 years.

In reality, there's already almost 16k hydrogen cars in California. Which explains why the 65ish stations that have hydrogen available have systems capable of refueling more than five cars a day. And why those more capable systems cost way more than you think they do.

Tom_Joad posted...

Meanwhile, this is being worked on in Germany for semis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3P_S7pL7Yg

This is interesting but I don't see this working in a place as big as the US. The investment cost to do this vs converting gas stations to be able to store and dispense hydrogen seems like a no brainer.

willythemailboy posted...

In reality, there's already almost 16k hydrogen cars in California. Which explains why the 65ish stations that have hydrogen available have systems capable of refueling more than five cars a day. And why those more capable systems cost way more than you think they do.

In reality, 5 cars a day (according to you) means that those 65 stations service 325 cars daily so every 2 months all 16k cars can get refilled + extra. Using the low end commercial solution.

Tyranthraxus posted...

5 cars a day (according to you)

According to the specs you linked. Not my fault if you can't math your way to the obvious conclusions.

Jesus dude, just take the L. It was a stupid idea and it's been pointed out exactly why it was stupid. Learn something and pick a better hill to die on.

willythemailboy posted...

According to the specs you linked. Not my fault if you can't math your way to the obvious conclusions.

Jesus dude, just take the L. It was a stupid idea and it's been pointed out exactly why it was stupid. Learn something and pick a better hill to die on.

You're the one that's been saying it costs 2 million dollars when it's actually just a few hundred thousand. First you started out by saying you couldn't get it which was wrong. Then you've repeatedly quoted the cost of building a completely new gas station from scratch on an empty lot as equivalent to the cost of adding FC pumps to an existing one. Then after that got proven wrong you posted it was impossible and that got proven wrong. Then you posted it would be impossible to fuel up all the cars and that got proven wrong.

All of this for what? To push EVs? A model of technology that we already know is unsustainable?

IceCreamOnStero posted...

Funny joke until you actually look at the facts. Energy consumption in the US alone trounces global car emmissions. Is it helping to drive an EV over a regular car? Yeah (though it'd help a lot more if you just weren't driving at all). But the fact is that as long as power stations in developed nations are burning coal and oil, the world will burn. EVs, recycling, carbon footprint etc. are all scams from big oil to distract away from that fact, and to get you feeling like you're being a good little helper instead of demanding the energy grid to go nuclear.

I'm aware of the history of passing the buck to the consumer with recycling, carbon footprint. Even some of the bs lib reasons for EVs fine.

You've completely jumped the shark if you think big oil is pushing EVs. The blame is the energy grid, not EVs, which reduce fuel consumption even if gotten from dirty grids, and even if they didn't still significantly clean up the air in inner cities so people would actually want to walk more.

And the US is a rare country blessed with enough natural green energy so spare me the nuclear crap. They're hyper aware how it's not needed here so industry bad actors flood the internet with advocacy to make sure you're a good little smart boy that's seen the nuclear facts.

foreverzero212 posted...

And the US is a rare country blessed with enough natural green energy so spare me the nuclear crap.

Nuclear is green.

Tyranthraxus posted...

You're the one that's been saying it costs 2 million dollars when it's actually just a few hundred thousand.

I'm giving you the numbers directly from the people in charge of implementing the system. If you know how they can do it cheaper, maybe you should let them know. Or maybe they know what they're doing and you're pulling shit out of your ass. Probably that second option.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Then you posted it would be impossible to fuel up all the cars and that got proven wrong.

Filling existing cars every two months is a win for you? Most people fill up every week, sometimes less. So yes, your idea is demonstrably stupid.

Tyranthraxus posted...

All of this for what? To push EVs? A model of technology that we already know is unsustainable?

You realize that some of those "home hydrogen refueling stations" use steam reformation to generate hydrogen, right? That's like burning natural gas in your car but even less efficient due to the extra steps involved. It's anything but sustainable. The ones that use electrolysis are still less efficient than batteries, at least until you get to the scale of seasonal power storage for home use rather than car use.

EVs are far more efficient compared to ICE or even HFCVs for personal use in moderate climates. If lithium ion batteries are merely a transitional step to other, more sustainable battery chemistries we're still better off building that step to make the next step easier.

Tyranthraxus posted...

Nuclear is green.

I never said it wasn't. Since the semantics can be confusing:

I said the US is blessed with natural green energy as in from the renewable sources that are attribute to what we traditionally call nature. Absorb that as if it were paid ads for nuclear and hydrogen on reddit.