Board 8 > TP Link continues to plays Trails: Deus Vult Edition

(+) Yeah! (+)

Having Richard that high is ... Interesting

I wasn't super big on Richard but he definitely has fans.

I might have him as one of the more interesting antagonists just because the series is a bit hit-or-miss on that front.

Previous ranking:

God Tier

1- Estelle
2- Olivier

Very High Tier

3- Renne
4- Agate
5- Joshua
6- Weissmann

High Tier

7- Kloe
8- Kevin
9- Nial
10- Tita
11- Zin
12- Anelace
13- Scherazard

Mid Tier

14- Dorothy
15- Dunan
16- Gilbert
17- Richard
18- Mogran
19- Cassius
20- Campanella
21- Kilika
22- Loewe
23- Amalthea
24- Maybelle

Low Tier

25- Bleublanc
26- Walter
27- Don
28- Luciola
29- Hans
30- Julia
31- Sieg
32- Cid
33- Mueller
34- Kurt

Bottom Tier

35- Kyle
36- Josette
37- Aina
38- Queen Alicia
39- Russel
40- Jill
41- Clem

I've removed Ricky and Anton from the list. New rule: anyone who joins this list must have a face portrait.

New characters:

Ries
Rufina
Ein
Lechter
Osborne
Erika
Dan
Mary
The Ravens (Agate said they can't work as bracers individually so they can't get ranked individually either)

I was gonna add Celeste but that would make it 51 characters and let's keep the number round. Celeste is Kloe but as a hologram. There, write-up done.

So this won't be a full ranking, but more like commentary on who went up and down and why.

Without further ado:

50- Josette

I didn't think she could get worse but here we are. The lesson learned is that context is everything. The context being Estelle and Josh are now in an official relationship. So what does Josette do? Get over it and maybe show other personalitiy tries besides being Estelle's rival?

Nope. She doubles down. I won't say EVERY interaction, but almost all her interactions are bickering with Estelle and saying out loud that she wants to steal Josh from her. She even manages to suck in her own door by being a jerk to her brothers over Josh.

Josette isn't a terrible person but damn if she is not a terrible character, but gameplay and story wise.

On a side note, I love that her catchphrase is "told you I could handle this", and she says it whenever she calls the Bobcat to bail her. Which is piloted by her brothers. Josette's s-craft is actually pretty good, because she's not doing anything during it, even though she is claiming credit for it. That's the most Josette s-craft one could think of.

49- Lechter

The fool who is secretely a genius. That's a tried and tested trope. Olivier is the perfect example of it. So why is it that Olivier is great and Lechter is shit?

Other than the fact one is plotting a resistance against Zemurian Hitler and the other one works for Zemurian SS, I mean?

Well Olivier still works better because when it's time for him to be a genius, he shows. Case in point: the end of SC. And he has all those little scenes showing he understands people and is in control of the situation.

The only thing Lechter ever does is play tag with a bunch of high shool students who wish they didn't have to do that. "But he said what Kloe needed to hear" - you may argue. No, he said 1 or 2 very cryptic and open ended phrases he probably read somewhere and Kloe chose to interpret it as being life changing advice, because Kloe, at least at that point of her life, was a moody teenager (more on that later).

The he appears in the next door, reveals he has been spying for Hitler since back during school and that he's doing it because it's fun.

Can he work as a villain? Maaaaaaaybe. Weissmann is the absolute worst and he's also hanging out in the upper tiers, right? Except I don't feel the game is trying to paint Lechter as a a bad guy? He is the hero of Kloe's story, and it feels like the game wants us to like him. But they botched the job. The dude is just a prick. And now I feel like he will appear again in the future, to be placed in sympathetic positions, and I'm not hyped for that at all.

Dude reminds me of Pariston from HxH, except Pariston works because he is a legit funny troll and he has a group of 10 straight men begging to be messed up with. Lechter's big act of trolling is climbing roofs.

48- Clem

Is a minor character in a story starred by Mary. /thread

47- Dan

Tita's father has one job, to be the balanced member in the family. That makes him boring by default. But sure, he has a heartwarming scene with Tita near the end of the first half, right? Yeah he does. And he's good in it.

But my last memory of him is him playing along to the insanity that is the Agate x Tita shipping. And that sours my opinion of him. Without much screentime besides that, he's not doing great.

The Agategate is here, and no one in this list is safe from its aftershocks.

46- Queen Alicia

45- Albert Russel

I'm letting him pass Alicia because they finally decided to give him a character trait other than plot device, which is that he has a funny rivarly with his daughter. The dynamic works.

Why not higher? Is it the Agategate? Yes.

44- Jill

She was already not great, and now she's a borderline sociopath. Except she has a scene in the end of the flashback where she's questioning why she is always like this, so she decides to make up with Kloe. Does that add up to a positive number? Yes, but not by much, particularly since they come from one of the worst doors in the game. But hey, I'm up for character development, I guess.

43- Kyle

Boring Tier

43- Kyle
44- Jill
45- Albert Russel
46- Queen Alicia
47- Dan Russel
48- Clem

Actually a Bad Character Tier

49- Lechter
50- Josette

ZeldaTPLink posted...

Tita's father has one job, to be the balanced member in the family.

excuse me. this is the man who taught cassius bright the way of the staff

...yeah he's the weakest member of tita's family by a mile

ZeldaTPLink posted...

I've removed Ricky and Anton from the list. New rule: anyone who joins this list must have a face portrait.

im kinda opposed to this but because they werent in 3rd i understand

catesdb posted...

im kinda opposed to this but because they werent in 3rd i understand

This is less about 3rd and more about making right what once went wrong.

aidios shall smite the anton haters

I don't think lechter is that bad but with your reasoning I can understand why you don't like him at least

42- Ein Selnate

Yeah ok she has survived long enough in this list. She's barely a character, despite her massive importance. Sort of like Alicia.

She is quite interesting in the few times she appears in, though. She has this maniac demeanor, a good person who has seen shit and doesn't want to show her goodness easily. She is not exactly nice to Kevin when giving him the Dominion rank, and she laughs when she wants to change his title. Still, she somehow makes it seems like she cares (unlike say, Lechter).

There is also the carnelia book, which I'm not sure if I'm supposed to count since it's like in-universe fanfiction. She's pretty badass in it, though.

41- Mary

They gave another orphanage kid a character arc! And it's more interesting than Clem's!. That says more about Clem, though.

Mary is the responsible one, the one who follows rules and keeps the other kids behaving. But because she is also a kid, she lacks self-awareness to realize when she's being a hypocrite about it. So she judges others whiole still dreaming of the happiness stone and ends up straying from the group because of it. It's a nice twist that is done well.

She is still not particularly likable, though.

40- Cid

He appears Leiston and a door or two but for my life I can't remember anything he says.

Apparently he's got promoted again, though? Cid has the fastest career in Zemuria.

39 - Rufina

What? The main villain of an entire game so low?

Yeah but like, Rufina is not the villain. The villain is Anima Mundi, who is... a thing... not a character. Rufina is someone who died a long time ago, appears in like 3 flashbacks, and also has a sweet sequence at the end of the game that leaves it unclear whether it's really her or not. And she basically informs Kevin he has to kill her, tells him he has to do it alone (why, exactly?) and doesn't react when Ries decides to join.

The chocolate scene was pretty cool, though.

38- Erika

I wish I could say I like Erika because she was opposing the Agategate. But that's a trap. She is not opposing it, she is helping support it because she is only opposing it as a slapstick comic relief character. She is the foil to make the viewer think "oh look at Erika trying to stop Agate from dating her little daughter again. That's so funny!" Instead of maybe having a heartfelt conversation with Tita, or her father, or her husband, or Agate himself to explain why the later shouldn't be spending so much time alone with Tita. So the joke falls flat to me. It does work a little in the first half of the door, because we haven't seen the implications fully yet, but in the second I just want it to end.

Erika does add other things to the table, though. Because her personality extends to anyone sheinteracts with. Her rivarly with her dad is legit funny. And her interaction with Kevin is great. How many people in the series have told Prof. Russel he was not smart and actually had their own accomplishments to back it up? Only Erika can do that.

37- Sieg

Look at all those losers who lost to the bird. Bask at their mediocrity.

36- Hans

He is not particularly good at catching Lechter.

35 - Kurt

"By my arts, I will be the only Sky character to lose playable status between a game and the next in the same arc!"

Which was the only thing I was going to say, but then I remembered he's pretty cool in the Schera door. Not just by beating up bad guys, but also she he nonchalantly tells her to do her fucking job. That's not much, but from a character I already enjoyed before and wanted to see more of, and who was so far down in the list, it's something.

Also, Not Kurt decided to meditate to check whether he had a sense of self or not. Then realized he didn't! That's hilarious.

34- Luciola

33- Don

He is bad at finance! That's a random fact you didn't need to know about Don. And now you do. It adds to the nice dynamic of how the Capua trio have qualities that make up for each other's weaknesses. He should have left the finance to Josettem, because apparently she is good at it too!

I don't know how to use this information in this list, though, so I'm leaving Don where he is.

32- Walter

31- Beaublanc

He gets an entire door. But the way is done is so cryptic is leaves more questions than answers. Also is it just me or they picked the most boring option of the 3 to be Beaublanc's real past? I liked the misunderstood artist more. Yeah sorry that isn't enough to jump tiers.

Low Tier

31- Beaublanc
32- Walter
33- Don
34- Luciola
35- Kurt
36- Hans
37- Sieg
38- Erika
39- Rufina
40- Cid
41- Mary
42- Ein Selnate

Boring Tier

43- Kyle
44- Jill
45- Albert Russel
46- Queen Alicia
47- Dan Russel
48- Clem

Actually a Bad Character Tier

49- Lechter
50- Josette

Hmm Low Tier ended up being big, but I guess it's just that what I call Low Tier are some pretty well done characters oversall, who just couldn't get more screentime because not everyone can, and the bigger a series gets the more of those characters you have.

I skipped Mueller and the forum doesn't let me edit the post anymore.

32- Mueller

He's got more screen time now which means enough time to think he's cool and enjoy playing with him, and therefore like him more as a character.

He's still the most BORING of the non-Josette player characters, though. He does appear in two doors, one where he stays in the hall while Olivier does everything that matters, and one where he gives good advice to Julia. And we learn he does resent a bit having been chosen from birth to be Olivier's aide, but eventually he got used to it. Thsi makes him a little more human. But eh, it's not particularly compelling since there's not much of a conflict.

Low Tier

30- Beaublanc
31- Walter
32- Mueller
33- Don
34- Luciola
35- Kurt
36- Hans
37- Sieg
38- Erika
39- Rufina
40- Cid
41- Mary
42- Ein Selnate

Boring Tier

43- Kyle
44- Jill
45- Albert Russel
46- Queen Alicia
47- Dan Russel
48- Clem

Actually a Bad Character Tier

49- Lechter
50- Josette

29- Giliath Orborne

This one seems unfair because I'm looking at this character and I see Top Tier material. He could end up being as good as Weissmann. That's how much his encounter with Olivier hyped him. He just outplayed the bard, over and over, first by revealing Olivier's great moment of glory in SC was His Plan All Along, then pulling a Join Me, We Will Rule and Galaxy speech, and then making it clear to Olivier how worse the later's hand is. Sure, Olivier got the last laugh in the door by throwing some roses or whatever, but at the end of the day, Osborne is the one with an empire.

If you are gonna be evil, don't half-ass is like Lechter. Commit.

Trails is playing the long game, huh. They are hyping the antagonist of games 6-9 in game 3. What the hell is this scam, my wallet is defenseless.

But yeah he's minor and one dimensional and needs more screentime, etc etc.

28- The Ravens

I considered ranking these guys last time, but truth be told, they are kind of gag characters, and the gag wasn't really pushed to the limit like they did with Gilbert and Dunan. So 3rd went and decided to make them good guys. It's fun how in FC, they are kind of clones of each other, then in SC, you get a suggestion they have different personalities, and now they are entire different people with individual motivations who can clash! And it's good storytelling! It feels unfair that the game isn't just promoting them to major characters and exploring what they can do, tbh.

Now they only need separate sets of crafts, and actual arts, I suppose.

27- Maybelle

She doesn't actually climb here, despite showing up. She gets a door yeah, but it gives more screentime to Anelace, and it's mostly ship tease between Maybelle and Lila. The issue is that her sidequest in SC already did all the development in that front, so this door is just a nice little filler using that same concept.

26- Julia

She's got actual character now, so she moves a tier. The character seems simple but is rather interesting: she is utter and completely devoted to Kloe. In fact, she's basically Kloe's mom, since her biological one is dead.

That does bring conflict though, and if you think about it, it's the classic career vs family one. Julia just wishes she could be with her daughter. But she has way too many talents and Kloe needs her to use them. So from Mueller, she learns to suck it up and do what she is best at.

Julia's problem is that, on a regular basis, she is still rather boring. I don't know how to explain. She has zero comedic value, is cool but not in a very exciting way, etc. She's a secondary character, through and through, and I appreciate the game showing what makes her tick, but that's as high as she goes, I suppose.

25- Loewe

I continue not to care much about him and his appearance in the game was almost a non event. Since it's not really him (and if you want to insist, it's mostly him acting as a generic villain). He's here so Josh can add another page to his vast tome of character development.

24- Amalthea

Kanone passes Loewe because she is pretty sweet in the Richard door. The game wants to draw a comparison between the devoted soldier who hates Richard because he dropped the cause, and the the woman whose cause is Richard himself. That's the gist of it: she loves Richard, will kill for him, die for him, change her career and goals for him, and I'm a sucker for love stories like that (though they can be unhealthy, but here it's the opposite). It's almost off-putting to see her in office clothes receiving clients and talking about finance, and it looks like she's just fine with it. I saw someone online say they wish she was in the playable roster instead of Josette and I agree so much with that.

23- Kilika

I felt like she was going to climb here, but she basically ended in the same place. I suppose she passes Amalthea but that's it. Her character development helped her hold off the challengers coming from below, if anything. Kilika is nothing but consistent!

The fact the game actually decided to develop her, and in a door that seemed like it would be about her, is the big surprise. The scene is pretty sweet, though its contents aren't super special: she wanted to find a way to make Taito useful other than killing, and while she did find it, she is unsure if she picked the right path or not. But that's a paradox of life, you will never know for sure if you picked the right path, even after you get to the end. But I like how for once, she is showing weakness. Kilika's perfection worked against her a bit, tbh.

And now she's a spymaster. I feel bad for whoever crosses her path in the future, tbh.

23- Kilika
24- Amalthea
25- Loewe
26- Julia
27- Maybelle
28- The Ravens
29- Osborne

Low Tier

30- Beaublanc
31- Walter
32- Mueller
33- Don
34- Luciola
35- Kurt
36- Hans
37- Sieg
38- Erika
39- Rufina
40- Cid
41- Mary
42- Ein Selnate

Boring Tier

43- Kyle
44- Jill
45- Albert Russel
46- Queen Alicia
47- Dan Russel
48- Clem

Actually a Bad Character Tier

49- Lechter
50- Josette

22- Aina

This might be the biggest climb in the list. Aina was a character who almost didn't deserve to be in the last list. Now here?

She's a BADASS. No, seriously. She is the most lit escort character ever, hitting enemies and pushing them to the other side of the battlefield with her bag. She knows how to craft smoke bombs at home. The game was already hinting at how hardcore Aina was for her infinite drinking ability, but here they just went to town with her.

She inherited a ton of money, then her evil uncle decided to take it from her, so she decided to fight for him, not because she wanted the money, but out of principle. Then she got the money, donated it all to charity. And then, she testified for him because turns out she doesn't really want her uncle to be in prison, just not to have her money. Few people have as much class as Aina does.

She doesn't really have an arc per se, though, just a goal, and once she fulfills it, she's happy to be a guild clerk or whatever. And it's fine. Not everyone needs to be a protagonist, sometimes we just need peace of mind.

21- Mogran

Cool axe.

20- Dunan

Loses a couple positions though not by his fault, other people just had actual screentime.

19- Cassius

Here's here and I love the way they made him incredibly strong gameplay-wise too. Though the fact he's actually easier in the arena fight cheapens him a bit.

There is also the Jagger door, where we get a serial reporting on Cassius making Erebonia freak out about how much of a God he is.

Maybe it's recency bias, but I enjoy Cassius a bit more now. I guess it's probably getting more demonstrations of him being amazing instead of just hearing about it.

18- Gilbert

Climbs a bit, because this game actually gave him a redemption arc. Except not really, it's the Team Rocket redemption arc. Works with the good guys, admits he likes them, but is back at trying to steal Pikachu tomorrow.

The humor was hit or miss, since the jokes about him being saved were a bit repetitive, but he was pretty awesome in the final chapter, tbh.

17- Campanella

Climbs a whole bunch, because he's very fun in this game. The door with the Anguis is pretty cool, particularly him drooling about how he will get to manipulate Kevin later on. Except he won't, because Kevin just got character development. But knowing Campanella, he probably won't mind the setback and will latch onto someone else. Crossbell is about to start and I'm pretty sure there will be no shortage of anti-heroes/villains to manipulate there.

I love him in the Q&A minigame too. Well not the minigame itself. But Campanella wearing ridiculous clothes and making snarky commentary on series lore is awesome.

I still know jack shit about the character, but I hope he stays around.

16- Dorothy

Barely appears, but the sequence with her desperately trying to get food is very funny (Ries would empathize). So she keeps the position, minus being passed by Richard/Ries, I suppose.

15- Sherazard

She's only really losing positions to Richard and Ries, so it's not a huge deal. But Schera is just not great this game and she wasn't fantastic to begin with, so I feel like a tier knockdown is warranted here.

Her door is mostly her being a jerk to Aina (and the later being classy about it). We do get some monologue about how terrible her life was before joining the circus, but I guess it just didn't hit me that hard compared to... a certain star door. Because all that stuff, her stealing and getting stolen from, I had already pictured (though her getting beaten up does hit me a bit).

My problem is that I didn't feel the connection between that and her attitude during the door's main plott, because there is her entire story with the circus and her friendship with the Brights in the middle, so Schera suddenly turning into a massive ass feels that it comes out of nowhere. They do explain that she is afraid of returning to her life in poverty... but really, she is an adult now, perfectly able to get a job in some shop or whatever, and it's not like the Brights will ever let her be homeless. Cassius will just adopt every troubled character he finds at this point.

And in present day, she gets nothing besides some very light ship tease with Olivier, being one of those characters who didn't really have to be in this game. Now, that doesn't erase the stuff I actually liked from Schera, so she doesn't drop considerably, but I'm tired of trying to find reasons to keep her in the same tier as people who don't annoy me as much as she does.

Mid Tier

15- Scherazard
16- Dorothy
17- Campanella
18- Gilbert
19- Cassius
20- Dunan
21- Mogran
22- Aina
23- Kilika
24- Amalthea
25- Loewe
26- Julia
27- Maybelle
28- The Ravens
29- Osborne

Low Tier

30- Beaublanc
31- Walter
32- Mueller
33- Don
34- Luciola
35- Kurt
36- Hans
37- Sieg
38- Erika
39- Rufina
40- Cid
41- Mary
42- Ein Selnate

Boring Tier

43- Kyle
44- Jill
45- Albert Russel
46- Queen Alicia
47- Dan Russel
48- Clem

Actually a Bad Character Tier

49- Lechter
50- Josette

Unranked
(previous rankings)

(God Tier)

(1) Estelle
(2) Olivier

(Very High Tier)

(3) Renne
(4) Agate
(5) Joshua
(6) Weissmann

(High Tier)

(7) Kloe
(8) Kevin
(9) Nial
(10) Tita
(11) Zin
(12) Anelace

(17) Richard
(???) Ries

love the aina love

ZeldaTPLink posted...

Cassius will just adopt every troubled character he finds at this point

Yes he will and I am here for it

Joking aside I do actually like Cassius a lot. It's not so much that he himself is a great character, but the effect he has on the world and the other characters is just very cool to me.

I've noticed I've been making a lot of typos and I apologize for that, because the task of reranking the entire cast is daunting, so I'm kind of rushing through the write-ups.

14- Zin

The least important of the original 8 ontinues to be, well, exactly that. Zin is a secondary character but it's ok. He does get a door in this game, but it's actually about Kilika. Because while she is hiding some weaknesses and douts, Zin is actually quite at peace with his life atm, even if not everything is perfect.

It's interesting how everyone in the Zin/Walter/Kilika trio have doubts and pains but all of the 3 have accepted the traumatic events in their shared past and moved on. This is not how anime characters should behave! But it's how real life works. Walter goes on to continue to be a bad guy, Kilika changes jobs becomes a spymaster, and Zin goes back to his country to live his life as a bracer, exactly where he was before Sky started.

Zin is at the bottom of this tier but he doesn't mind. The man is too chill to get worked up over that. He lets Richard and the ladies pass him like a gentleman.

13- Tita

Tita, on the other hand, actually gets something in this game. But I'm not impressed.

There is the entire stuff with Agate which honestly I'd rather forget about. There is the stuff with Renne, though, which is a mixed bag. The first half of the door, with Tita desperately wanting to join the orbal gear project because she wants to reach Renne, is honestly great. So what is the problem there?

It never pays off.

She never, even once, uses the actual thing to confront Renne. I'm guessing it's because the second half of the door is optional so she is not guaranteed to have the orbal gear in the Phantasma when Renne shows up? But that's a weird design choice, just make it not optional in this case! And I'm looking online and I see Tita doesn't appear in the Crossbell arc, which is apparently when the Renne plotline is solved, so the entire set up was for nothing.

It's not without a silver lining though, because although she doesn't use the robot, she is the one responsible for preventing Renne from going on a rampage when the later comes out of the stone. Because, like I mentioned in the other write-up, Tita is the kid that makes the battle worth fighting, so not even Renne can bring herself to hurt Tita. It's a bummer that she accomplishes this by crying instead of, you know, kicking Renne's ass with a mecha.

This is still pretty minor and doesn't really knock Tita down, but it prevents her from passing anyone, or from resisting the Richard/Ries/Anelace attack from behind.

12- Anelace

I said last time Anelace's had no ceiling once she finally got a character arc. Well, the arc is here, and it's... not impressive. It's standard shonen stuff. She has doubts over what to use her sword for. She fights a strong guy, hears some words of wisdom from Richard, and finds a new path for the blade. It never ties with anything though, because Anelace, at the end of the day, is still a minor character with no big goals or traumas to speak of. She is mandatory in the lab section, where she has to fight her teammates, but nothing really comes from that.

But I'm letting her pass both Zin and Tita. Because Anelace is just fucking great. Her jokes always land. Any scene with her is more fun. Her victory speech continues to be flawless. I can't explain. Anelace just is. There is a reason I brought her to the final battle, and it wasn't just because she had the strongest weapon in the game.

This is about as high as an obvious side character can get, honestly.

11- Nial

He is barely around. Nial was really a one game wonder, huh. Well, the impact was huge and I love political stories so I'm letting him beat Anelace in the minor character league.

High Tier

11- Nial
12- Anelace
13- Tita
14- Zin

Mid Tier

15- Scherazard
16- Dorothy
17- Campanella
18- Gilbert
19- Cassius
20- Dunan
21- Mogran
22- Aina
23- Kilika
24- Amalthea
25- Loewe
26- Julia
27- Maybelle
28- The Ravens
29- Osborne

Low Tier

30- Beaublanc
31- Walter
32- Mueller
33- Don
34- Luciola
35- Kurt
36- Hans
37- Sieg
38- Erika
39- Rufina
40- Cid
41- Mary
42- Ein Selnate

Boring Tier

43- Kyle
44- Jill
45- Albert Russel
46- Queen Alicia
47- Dan Russel
48- Clem

Actually a Bad Character Tier

49- Lechter
50- Josette

Unranked
(previous rankings)

(God Tier)

(1) Estelle
(2) Olivier

(Very High Tier)

(3) Renne
(4) Agate
(5) Joshua
(6) Weissmann

(High Tier)

(7) Kloe
(8) Kevin

(17) Richard
(???) Ries

10- Kloe

Klaudia is also someone that could be described as a One Game Wonder at this point, too. Because as I have already explained, she already wasn't amazing in SC. How about 3rd? Well, she just sucks here.

The school door is probably the worst one in the game. Though it's not just her fault (also of a certain red-haired troll). But Kloe herself doesn't help it. The point here is that Kloe is feeling guilty about missing the orphanage because, she was a coward at that point? Or I think she hates herself for being an introvert? Honestly I'm still confused, and it felt to me like cheap teenage angst, the kind you desperately want to bury and forget about when you grow up.

I guess a price of showing flashbacks way after you develop characters is the risk of showing worse versions than the audience is used to, but there are good ways to pull that off (just look at the Estelle/Josh door for it).

Ok, what else? She gets nothing in Phantasma. There is also the door with Joshua at the party, which I actually love, though it's more focused on Josh. But Kloe has a great scene in it, where she confesses her love to Josh and catches him completely unprepared. It's amazing how such a great person Kloe has become, compared to how bad she was before.

You know, I'm not gonna knock her for the school door that much. So while she is losing 3 positions, it's to Kevin, Ries and Richard, who all have very good reasons to climb. Kloe is still a sweetheart and one of the reasons FC is great and I love her. Unfortunately I don't see her being very prominent in the series from now on, since she is practically a chief of state now, and the series will now focus on other states.

9- Richard

Alan's story is a tale of two halves. The first is The Tragedy of Richard, which happens in FC, and I've gone over in his last write up. It's a tale of how a decent man, blinded by a cause, and by his low self-esteem, turns into a tyrant. That half alone already makes him a great character. The second half is The Redemption of Richard, and it happens off-screen during SC. We only get to see Richard after he returns, having been given a second chance by the queen, and ready to make the world a better place. There is not much instrospection on that, just Richard saying over and over that he doesn't deserve forgiveness. This continues into Phantasma, where, although I enjoyed playing as Richard, his presence wasn't really necessary. Because again, the redemption already happened, and we just see him being thankful at people for trusting him.

But there is his star door. Where he is allowed to make a speech where he finally reveals how The Redemption of Richard played out. And I love it.

I've gone over how military, at least in my country, tends to be self-centered and believe the world can only function with military logic. Richard's tragedy involved that, thinking that he had to militarize his country and sacrifice its wealth to prepare for war. So his redemption is about contemplating ways the world, and himself, can function otherwise. He then realizes there are so many ways to view things, so many angles, that his worldview was small and puny. In a way, Richard was born again.

So he starts over, and creates the country's first civilian intelligence company, which is useful not just for Liberl's geopolitical position, but is also for its citizens, in ways that look trivial, but matter. This is the series reminding us that not everything is the large scale plot to save the world, there is also the micro worldbuilding, the side quests, the common people's lives. There are the big political questions, but there is also the individual lives, the local matters to solve. Richard grew as a person by finding something that was present in the trilogy's roots. Which is the value of just being a good neighbor, someone who helps their friends and family. It's like the series has gone full circle, starting with Estelle and Josh doing small sidequests for the community, and ending 3 games later with the villain of the first game learning the value in that.

And to top it all, he is still not sure if he made the best call. Which is very realistic, because we never are in real life.

I'm just amazed at how good of a character writing this guy has, and he's just not higher because it's sadly confined to a single door.

8- Ries

This was the pleasant surprise of the game.

Ries is first introduced as the stoic counterpart to Kevin's jokester self. He's laidback, but she takes no bullshit. Unless there is food involved, where she almost becomes as silly as Estelle. I liked the characterization already. Plus she is a nun who fights with a steampunk drone greatsword, really, how cool is that?

Where she really shines is when Kevin falls, though. Because at the other side of the stoicness, the game reveals very emotional, and raw, person. Someone who cries, who says what she means, who loves and suffers for other people. She is honest in her stoicness, but also in her emotion. She is also almost as good at reading people as Kevin is, but she usually defeats Kevin in their interactions because she is also at peace with herself, something Kevin absolutely is not.

While Kevin buried all his feelings inside and suffered in silence, Ries likely cried when Rufina died. And grieved. And eventually moved on, and went to become a better version of herself. So when she meets Kevin again, she is in a good position to help him, having already helped herself. I absolutely love the scene where Kevin finally reveals he killed her sister, and she never, not even once, blames him for it, instead being angry at him for suffering alone. It's so easy for stories like this to add an entire arc where Ries would be mad, but this game doesn't fall to that trap.

And then she just supports him, over and over, until the end. She jumps into hell so he doesn't have to go there. She asks to help him shoot her sister the second time, so he doesn't have to do it alone again. Ries is what every person in the Earth should have. A support net, someone who helps you just because they love you, whether it's romantic or not. A family.

Ries has one minor issue, in that she doesn't really get any character development. She exists to be part of Kevin's arc. Which personally I don't mind, since I don't believe every character necessarily needs to change in a story, but some people got that and they are even better for it. Ries, like I said before, is someone who is just at peace with herself, and she works better because of that.

High Tier

8- Ries
9- Richard
10- Kloe
11- Nial
12- Anelace
13- Tita
14- Zin

Mid Tier

15- Scherazard
16- Dorothy
17- Campanella
18- Gilbert
19- Cassius
20- Dunan
21- Mogran
22- Aina
23- Kilika
24- Amalthea
25- Loewe
26- Julia
27- Maybelle
28- The Ravens
29- Osborne

Low Tier

30- Beaublanc
31- Walter
32- Mueller
33- Don
34- Luciola
35- Kurt
36- Hans
37- Sieg
38- Erika
39- Rufina
40- Cid
41- Mary
42- Ein Selnate

Boring Tier

43- Kyle
44- Jill
45- Albert Russel
46- Queen Alicia
47- Dan Russel
48- Clem

Actually a Bad Character Tier

49- Lechter
50- Josette

Unranked
(previous rankings)

(God Tier)

(1) Estelle
(2) Olivier

(Very High Tier)

(3) Renne
(4) Agate
(5) Joshua
(6) Weissmann
(8) Kevin

Ries only at 8th is criminal

yeah!! she should be...

6th maybe

catesdb posted...

yeah!! she should be...

6th maybe

at best, yeah

I mean 8th place in this cast is ridiculously good.

Ries is solid but I never really thought she was a standout at least in a cast as strong as this.

7- Weissmann

He barely appears. But he's still great here, even if it's not really him. He knows Kevin killed him, and he's still more interesting in making an evil disciple out of him. The guy is just so nasty! This is one of my favorite villains ever.

We also learn the weapon that killed him came from a mysterious thing that killed his parents, but Weissmann himself doesn't seem to care about that. There is evil to be done.

Weissmann will always have a place in my memory as the monster who made one of my favorite love stories ever possible, because he provided the massive barrier that only Estelle could overcome.

He loses his place to Kevin because well, Kevin's game.

6- Agate

Did he just fall 2 positions? Is it the Agategate? Well, it's nicknamed Agategate, right?

Well, no. I thought a lot about this, but it's not Agate's fault, at all. Or Tita's, for that matter (it's pretty normal for a teenage girl to have a crush on an old guy). It's the fault of the other Russels (fuck them). It's the fault of the mysterious poltergeist who possessed the entire playable cast during that one scene and made them think this is ok (because if there is no poltergeist I'll have to knock the entire player cast down a tier). It's the fault of Falcom. It's the fault of the sizable portion of the playerbase who likes this crap. It's also the fault of capitalism, who incentivizes, when it doesn't outright force, companies like Falcom to cater to those degenerates, in order to stay financially healthy.

But I digress. Well, if it's not Agate's fault, then what? It's because the other characters just had reasons to climb, that's what.

So let's assume Moon Door 1 Part 2 never happened, which is something Agate himself would agree with. What else does he get?

He does get a door, the one with the Ravens. Where he is a side character. I enjoyed his role there very much, though. Because it doesn't make sense. Estelle and Joshua only had to enter some sewers and recover a treasure chest to become junior bracers. The Ravens had to enter the dome of the freaking dragon, which some very strong monsters and multiple floors, get to the top, and then fight Agate himself. And after they won, Agate says they are barred from doing missions as bracers whenever they are together.

It's not a plot hole though, it's because Agate is just that strict. And it plays perfectly with what we know of his character from FC. He reminds me of some teachers I had in college, usually one per semester, who were ridiculously strict compared to the rest, for no reason whatsoever. If you ever go to college, try to avoid classes with Agate if you are making your semester schedule!

It's not much. But I was considering letting Weissmann pass him for the reasons mentioned in his write-up, and just for this bit, I'm letting Agate keep the 6th place. The guy is just great. Long live Agate, and may Japan's perversion never corrupt his badass soul.

5- Kevin

And this is it. Let's crack open the beautiful mess that is our favorite instant Earth Wall provider.

The first thing that I noticed about Kevin is that his trauma over killing his mother makes no sense. He went out and when he returned, she was dying on the floor. He killed nobody. It took me a while, but then I realized he just wanted to blame himself, because that's how human minds work sometimes.The hint here is that everything is in Kevin's head.

He did kill Rufina, though. But that was completely not his fault. He was possessed by a magical thingy given by a goddess, with no warning, which he had no training or means to control. But something in Kevin just broke that day. He decides he was a monster beyond redemption, and willingly walked into a downward spiral of self loathing. Along the way, he probably killed a lot of people, which probably made he hate himself more, and isolate himself from Ries and anyone else who would have cared about him, which probably didn't do good for his mind. So when we meet Kevin in the game's, he is deeply depressed. His head is broken, more broken than anyone's except maybe Renne.

But Kevin is a good actor, which makes sense since he's a good spy. He's also god tier at reading people, so he can say what they want to hear, and he's very skilled, so he can bail them out whenever necessary, and earn their trust. Kevin one of the most dangerous people in Zemuria, easily, for those things, and for all the weapons and resources he has access to. It makes me understand why Orobouros has to operate in the shadows, if this is the faction that opposes them. Kevin is a duality, because he also knows how to look like a monster when he wants to keep people away (something that, fortunately, doesn't seem to work with Josh). He is just a master with people. I also love how Kevin's status as a dominion was kept as a complete secret from the public just so he could get a chance to put that salt pale into Weissmann, because the later is too smart to let anyone from the Gralsritter get close to him.

So the spiral descends, and Kevin unconsciously creates an entire hell just to punish him, and willingly walks into it. It may or may not be a metaphor for suicide. I love the set up, the way the game immediately lets on Phantasma is directly related to Kevin, how it slowly shows he's broken as he interacts with Ries, and how it builds the tension to the big reveal. And then Ries shows what she is awesome and brings him back the light.

I have a problem with all of this, though. The resolution. Once he and Ries jump into Gehenna, I felt like Kevin recovered too easily. He decides he doesn't want her to die with him, but for the rest of the game, he just makes speeches about how he's a changed man and how he's thankful to everyone. It's weird and I'm not sure if it's realistic, because with how broken he was, he should take a lot longer to heal. My headcanon is that after the end of 3rd, Kevin will still spend a lot of time suffering and hating himself, albeit maybe now with Ries by his side, he can slowly recover. But in-game, it feels a little too easy, especially compared to the huge effort that took to recover Joshua. I guess since Joshua had a Bestelle while Kevin only had a Ries, they had to bridge the gap somehow.

I think I'm nitpicking, but I have to explain why he's only 5th place in my list since he's amazing. But the people above him are the gold standard for character writing (and the gold standard for bards). If Kevin's is not perfect, he can't hang out with those guys. But he gets close enough.

5- Kevin
6- Agate
7- Weissmann

High Tier

8- Ries
9- Richard
10- Kloe
11- Nial
12- Anelace
13- Tita
14- Zin

Mid Tier

15- Scherazard
16- Dorothy
17- Campanella
18- Gilbert
19- Cassius
20- Dunan
21- Mogran
22- Aina
23- Kilika
24- Amalthea
25- Loewe
26- Julia
27- Maybelle
28- The Ravens
29- Osborne

Low Tier

30- Beaublanc
31- Walter
32- Mueller
33- Don
34- Luciola
35- Kurt
36- Hans
37- Sieg
38- Erika
39- Rufina
40- Cid
41- Mary
42- Ein Selnate

Boring Tier

43- Kyle
44- Jill
45- Albert Russel
46- Queen Alicia
47- Dan Russel
48- Clem

Actually a Bad Character Tier

49- Lechter
50- Josette

Unranked
(previous rankings)

(God Tier)

(1) Estelle
(2) Olivier

(Very High Tier)

(3) Renne
(5) Joshua

4- Joshua

He did not get that many scenes in this game. But it just happens I liked everything I saw. This is post-SC Josh, who now has his personal issues mostly solved and a stable relationship with Estelle. How happy is he? A lot.

The SC afterparty scene is great and I wish it was in SC proper. There, Josh is just relieved he gets to hang out casually with all those people, something he thought he would never be able to do. It's starting to dawn on him that he really has nothing to do with Orobouros anymore. He's a free man.

He doesn't get many scenes in Phantasma, but he still carries with what he gets. His exchanges with Kevin are solid, where he's showing both sincere gratitude and his ability to stay on the top of things, at the same time. We learn he always knew about Kevin, but decided to let Kevin hang out with Estelle because he thought she would benefit from it. He sees Kevin being broken but also sees his good side. So much of Estelle has dripped on Josh at this point it's delightful.

There is also the Loewe scene, where he gets to show he's moved on. The Renne scene at the end, where I feel he was just as great as Estelle. And there is the flashback where they are kids, which really gives more points to Estelle than to him, but is nice characterization for him anyway.

Josh is also the one who benefits the most from time passing after I played SC, along with Estelle and Weissmann. Because the memory of having played that perfect dramatic love story stays, and my appreciation for the main characters involved just grows over time. It was really a one of a kind thing.

3- Renne

Star Door Fifteen.

The thing that is interesting about that door is how it recontextualizes the entire character of Renne. Ok, I know, she had already said she used to be a child prostitute, in SC. But I feel like I hadn't really processed the concept myself. It was treated as an argument for why Estelle couldn't easily redeem Renne. She went through worse shit, therefore she's more broken and will take more work to fill up her alignment meter with goodness.

But now? Screw all of that. Fuck redemption. Go burn the world down, Renne, you deserve it. What you went through in that place dwarfs everything else, it makes it all meaningless. Parents, childhood, friends, morals, what even matters when... THAT happened?

I checked the timeline in a forum and apparently she was 6 when she was found by Josh and Loewe. Six. Let that sink in.

And Orobouros? Any bad feelings I may have had for them for turning Renne into a child soldier are gone (though what they did to people other than Renne is a different story). They saved her. Heck, Josh gained a few points in his own ranking just for being the one who asked Loewe to take her with them (and it's also fascinating to learn a brainwashed Josh was able to do that).

It's no wonder why she is so mad. Why she refuses to open herself up. It may be because she thinks if she just allowed herself to be normal again, it would cheapen all the horror that happened to her. There has to be a meaning to it, I guess. Something to destroy. Some closure to achieve. I don't know. Crossbell will tell. I feel like she won't find it, because the story wants Estelle to bring her to the light, but damn if Estelle/Josh pulling that off won't be an incredible feat.

Well, I've said my piece about that... door. So what's left? Well Renne is pretty fun in Phantasma. When she is not too busy trying to keep people away, she gets to be snarky. Which works because she is very intelligent on top of having been forced adulthood into her too early (in hindsight, I feel so bad for enjoying that now). Renne is just fun to have around, and I like how her VA and animations make her so childish, so she retains the sense of horror and wrongness that made me rank her high the first time around. Renne is funny and likable, but also absolutely dreadful and off-putting. I'm not changing her position because I really do love the other two, but you know what? God Tier.

God Tier

3- Renne

Very High Tier

4- Joshua
5- Kevin
6- Agate
7- Weissmann

High Tier

8- Ries
9- Richard
10- Kloe
11- Nial
12- Anelace
13- Tita
14- Zin

Mid Tier

15- Scherazard
16- Dorothy
17- Campanella
18- Gilbert
19- Cassius
20- Dunan
21- Mogran
22- Aina
23- Kilika
24- Amalthea
25- Loewe
26- Julia
27- Maybelle
28- The Ravens
29- Osborne

Low Tier

30- Beaublanc
31- Walter
32- Mueller
33- Don
34- Luciola
35- Kurt
36- Hans
37- Sieg
38- Erika
39- Rufina
40- Cid
41- Mary
42- Ein Selnate

Boring Tier

43- Kyle
44- Jill
45- Albert Russel
46- Queen Alicia
47- Dan Russel
48- Clem

Actually a Bad Character Tier

49- Lechter
50- Josette

@CoachTravis @Davzz may enjoy reading the preceding post.

I mostly agree with your ranking. The other day I tried to figure out who my top 10 characters in the series were and your top 5 from this list was all in that top 10 ranking >.>

Think the one big difference is that you liked Weissman a lot more than I did. For me I really like the scene where he's first introduced (well...introduced as Weissman anyway) but otherwise I found him more middle-of-the-road. I does have some great scenes at the end of SC also but I lean more towards liking those because of Estelle than because of Weissman.

Edit: Actually I'd have Loewe somewhat higher than you but he'd still only come in around 10 or so for me so not sure how big a change that actually is.

yea it's a very good top 5

As a :stepsister:, alas I have not managed to find a cheap used copy of Renne's nendo yet.................. yes zin I know acryllics are cheaper

2- Olivier

Is clearly another character who didn't need to be in this game. I mean, I'd keep (almost) all the doors, but did we really need all those 16 people in Phantasma other than for pure fanservice? No, we needed Kevin, Ries, Estelle, Joshua and Renne. I'd add Tita and Richard for the gameplay novelty, and I guess Anelace to make it 8 (since she was barely playable before). Scrap the rest and keep them door-only characters.

But I digress. My point is that I really have nothing to say about Olivier in the main game, since he does nothing in it. But you don't make it to God Tier by being someone who needs to scrap for more character scenes in the epilogue game. No, Olivier has over 100 hours of amazing bardic comedy backing him up. He gets to keep the 2nd place just for that.

This game is not useless for him, though. There is the Osborne door. Where tbh I think Osborne won the encounter, but Olivier did perform really well. He showed more of his realpolitik skills we have recently learned of, and more important, some actual motivations, something he was really in need of. We now know he really has a bone to pick with the nobles, and maybe that was his original source of suffering, not necessarily Osborne. But the later came and Olivier was wise enough to recognize him for what he really is: a fascist. And our bard turned out to be anti-fascist to the bone, so he realized there are evils we cannot justify falling to, no matter how bad the current situation is. And Olivier decides to take the hard path, rejecting both factions currently fighting for power and become the third one.

Please Falcom, I want to know Olivier's actual backstory. Why does he feel this invested in the politics of Erebonia?

1- Estelle

Was there any doubt this would be the final name in this list? Estelle is just another standard of protagonist, someone who single-handedly makes the first 2 games of this series legendary. And while she doesn't do much here, damn if what she does isn't great too! There is the entire sequence with Renne at the end, where Estelle just goes and shows her big heart. For a while I her saying she loves Renne over and over was a little off-putting to me, since they barely know each other. But later, it dawned on me that Estelle just wants to help Renne because she feels bad for her and her past, and she wants Renne to be a normal girl. So she will do everything in her power to make Renne feel loved, even if originally she has no reason to care about Renne. She will love Renne because she knows Renne needs her love. Because that's just who Estelle is, someone who has a lot of love to give. How do I not love that character myself?

And that shows in the Kid Estelle door, where we see how she naturally slipped into wanting to befriend Josh. It seems Estelle is just oblivious about Joshua's suffering, but I think in a way, Estelle knew something was wrong with him, and decided to do everything she could to help him. And the entire door is just Estelle never, ever, giving up on trying to reach out to him, even at the cost of risking her life. But she didn't know much about people, so she just decided to bring bigger and bigger bugs, which ties with my previous write-up saying Estelle was always a shining sun, but lacked the wisdom to know how to channel that light into concrete results.

And that turns out to be the story of how Josh originally fell in love with her.

Is there a fictional couple better than those two? I don't remember.

God Tier

1- Bestelle
2- Olivier
3- Renne

Very High Tier

4- Joshua
5- Kevin
6- Agate
7- Weissmann

High Tier

8- Ries
9- Richard
10- Kloe
11- Nial
12- Anelace
13- Tita
14- Zin

Mid Tier

15- Scherazard
16- Dorothy
17- Campanella
18- Gilbert
19- Cassius
20- Dunan
21- Mogran
22- Aina
23- Kilika
24- Amalthea
25- Loewe
26- Julia
27- Maybelle
28- The Ravens
29- Osborne

Low Tier

30- Beaublanc
31- Walter
32- Mueller
33- Don
34- Luciola
35- Kurt
36- Hans
37- Sieg
38- Erika
39- Rufina
40- Cid
41- Mary
42- Ein Selnate

Boring Tier

43- Kyle
44- Jill
45- Albert Russel
46- Queen Alicia
47- Dan Russel
48- Clem

Actually a Bad Character Tier

49- Lechter
50- Josette

Just bought Zero

This series owns me now. I cannot escape.

Zero, and especially Azure, are really great. Hope you enjoy them!

ZeldaTPLink posted...

Just bought Zero

This series owns me now. I cannot escape.

YES

Zero and Azure top 2 trails games enjoy :)

Question, how can I change the name of a topic?

I don't think you can. Maybe if it's in the usual within-an-hour edit period idk, but I assumed you couldn't.

the only way to change the name of a topic is to make a new topic with a new name

remember it took us forever just to be able to edit individual posts

I like the Sky arc the most but all the games are great.

Feels bad switching threads in page 3, but I have the perfect name for the next one. Meh.

zero is a contender for best trails

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/80540838