Current Events > Do you have any opinions on the Touhou games?

(+) Yeah! (+)

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

https://www.thpatch.net/wiki/Touhou_Patch_Center:Main_page
Partly. The dialogue is at least translated.

Is there more story in this game? I remember 17 and 18 being translated pretty fast.

best Touhou 19 theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOz6g8jf1mE

FL81 posted...

best Touhou 19 theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOz6g8jf1mE

Is that the final boss theme?

GiftedACIII posted...

Is that the final boss theme?

no

Hisami's theme is probably my least favorite new theme. It isn't bad, but it's not as good as the others. Son Biten theme is my favorite and I love how ZUN experimented with different instruments with her theme.

FL81 posted...

no

Ok.

Yamata_Demon posted...

Hisami's theme is probably my least favorite new theme. It isn't bad, but it's not as good as the others. Son Biten theme is my favorite and I love how ZUN experimented with different instruments with her theme.

How many new characters are there? 9 had 3 new characters, 4 if we include Yuuka coming back.

GiftedACIII posted...

Ok.

How many new characters are there? 9 had 3 new characters, 4 if we include Yuuka coming back.

Five new characters:
Son Biten
Enoko
Chiyari
Hisami
Zanmu

Yamata_Demon posted...

Five new characters:
Son Biten
Enoko
Chiyari
Hisami
Zanmu

Woah, is that a record for a non-whole numbered game?

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Thanks. That's good to know.

The other day I watched that video of the guy who played Ikaruga every day for a year. It got me wanting to play a bullet hell again.
But apparently I wasn't that motivated, because I settled for watching a playthrough of TH19.

Not really going for the gameplay at all. I think Goku's in this one. Marisa's design looks kinda off. wtf at diagonal horns Suika, did she get into a barfight with Yuugi and get physically reconfigured?
Final boss theme is unexpectedly different.

They look tough af

I played one of the levels on little big planet (faithful adaptation judging by video clips of the real thing). Used the same music, art style, menu screen, end result screen, background image behind score counter on the right, enemies, and patterns etc. Pretty much a straight rip of one of the touhou games and levels. I forgot the title tbh pretty sure it had the word "mountain" on it but idr anymore..

anyway Iirc only normal and easy mode was available and they still gave me a headache. That said the performance did drop below 30 fps at times which may have affected my performance

furb posted...

I tried to play Perfect Cherry Blossom and Imperishable night like 13 years ago. I couldn't get into them despite trying. Never really explored the other media related to the series.

Those are the two I recall playing. Thought they were fun, but ultimately too hard for me.

welp, I somehow managed to entirely miss this year's popularity poll

ViewtifulJoe posted...

The other day I watched that video of the guy who played Ikaruga every day for a year. It got me wanting to play a bullet hell again.
But apparently I wasn't that motivated, because I settled for watching a playthrough of TH19.

Not really going for the gameplay at all. I think Goku's in this one. Marisa's design looks kinda off. wtf at diagonal horns Suika, did she get into a barfight with Yuugi and get physically reconfigured?
Final boss theme is unexpectedly different.

lol Goku? And I was listening to some of the Extra themes the other day and I just remembered how much I struggled with Mamizou even though she's usually not mentioned for hardest Extra bosses. Although maybe the fact I used Youmu had something to do with it. Still, it's been years and I remember my successful run I had her capture her 3rd last card where she turns into Reimu and throws cards at you, which is the hardest spell she has in the game and I only caught it once after 70 tries in spell practice.

GiftedACIII posted...

lol Goku? And I was listening to some of the Extra themes the other day and I just remembered how much I struggled with Mamizou even though she's usually not mentioned for hardest Extra bosses. Although maybe the fact I used Youmu had something to do with it. Still, it's been years and I remember my successful run I had her capture her 3rd last card where she turns into Reimu and throws cards at you, which is the hardest spell she has in the game and I only caught it once after 70 tries in spell practice.

I don't think I ever beat Mamizou, I didn't like how 13 played so I went back to the others fast. The super meter charged extremely slowly and if you made a mistake you had to spend ages re-building with power ups in that game. I don't know if it was he new circular health bars playing tricks on me but everything felt really spongey.
8, 10, 11 and 12 were the only ones I made it a point to beat extra with every character/shot formation. Most of the others I beat extra once or twice then stuck to the main game.

As for most difficult, when I was playing, people used to say Koishi was the most difficult one but I was pretty good at that. Meanwhile Nue has Undefined Darkness which I was always messing up. Raiko had that thing where she shakes the screen so you can't see, doesn't seem fair. I never fought Hecatia but I see most people saying she's the most difficult one.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

I don't think I ever beat Mamizou, I didn't like how 13 played so I went back to the others fast. The super meter charged extremely slowly and if you made a mistake you had to spend ages re-building with power ups in that game. I don't know if it was he new circular health bars playing tricks on me but everything felt really spongey.
8, 10, 11 and 12 were the only ones I made it a point to beat extra with every character/shot formation. Most of the others I beat extra once or twice then stuck to the main game.

As for most difficult, when I was playing, people used to say Koishi was the most difficult one but I was pretty good at that. Meanwhile Nue has Undefined Darkness which I was always messing up. Raiko had that thing where she shakes the screen so you can't see, doesn't seem fair. I never fought Hecatia but I see most people saying she's the most difficult one.

13 definitely had a weirder system than many of the others. The two bomb per life system actually reduces your amount of outs and you get very little lives with TD's system too, only like 3 or 4. That's what makes Mamizou so hard since you only get 2 extra lives max, the least of all the Extras. And yeah, it does feel spongey too since I think everyone is just weaker in TD.
Outside of the last few attacks Nue was pretty easy to me. The first time I had to beat her twice because my game crashed after beating her the first time. You get a ton of resources if you abuse DDC's life system which makes Raiko more manageable. I actually think Sukuna's attacks are harder than Raiko's. Hecatia is cheesable with Reisen but she's really hard otherwise.

Ironically, despite being Phantasm, a level above the others, Yukari was actually on the easier end for me too.

GiftedACIII posted...

13 definitely had a weirder system than many of the others. The two bomb per life system actually reduces your amount of outs and you get very little lives with TD's system too, only like 3 or 4. That's what makes Mamizou so hard since you only get 2 extra lives max, the least of all the Extras. And yeah, it does feel spongey too since I think everyone is just weaker in TD.
Outside of the last few attacks Nue was pretty easy to me. The first time I had to beat her twice because my game crashed after beating her the first time. You get a ton of resources if you abuse DDC's life system which makes Raiko more manageable. I actually think Sukuna's attacks are harder than Raiko's. Hecatia is cheesable with Reisen but she's really hard otherwise.

Ironically, despite being Phantasm, a level above the others, Yukari was actually on the easier end for me too.

I never tried that Marisa fireball bomb trick in 14, but it did look fun. I heavily advocate for stuff like that in these games, it's more fun than just swapping the difficulty up or down. It's always Marisa too. The lv3 death ray in MoF, the rapid switch trick in IN.

Speaking of Yukari being overrated, is ZUN still doing that thing where all the final/extra bosses are meant to be actual deities? He was doing a bit of that for a while and it was boring, feels less creative. I always liked it when the last opponents are just some immensely formidable local weirdos. Like Utsuho is just we gave this bird sun powers for a joke and uh maybe we shouldn't have done that. And then Byakuren's backstory is she did 1000 sit-ups every day and was too nice to the Gensokyo equivalent of nerds so she got stuffed in a locker and stayed in that locker... Until now!

Then on opposite sides of that you've got Kanako, Suwako and Miko who're just something something trying to get more supporters something boring.
I think Junko, Hecatia and the one who gets both roles in 16 was a breaking point of sorts where I just accepted these characters weren't very fun or interesting any more.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

I never tried that Marisa fireball bomb trick in 14, but it did look fun. I heavily advocate for stuff like that in these games, it's more fun than just swapping the difficulty up or down. It's always Marisa too. The lv3 death ray in MoF, the rapid switch trick in IN.

Speaking of Yukari being overrated, is ZUN still doing that thing where all the final/extra bosses are meant to be actual deities? He was doing a bit of that for a while and it was boring, feels less creative. I always liked it when the last opponents are just some immensely formidable local weirdos. Like Utsuho is just we gave this bird sun powers for a joke and uh maybe we shouldn't have done that. And then Byakuren's backstory is she did 1000 sit-ups every day and was too nice to the Gensokyo equivalent of nerds so she got stuffed in a locker and stayed in that locker... Until now!

Then on opposite sides of that you've got Kanako, Suwako and Miko who're just something something trying to get more supporters something boring.
I think Junko, Hecatia and the one who gets both roles in 16 was a breaking point of sorts where I just accepted these characters weren't very fun or interesting any more.

Agreed, I find DDC a very underrated game. I was playing UFO, TD, and then DDC in a row after a break from the series and I was surprised at how fun DDC was and also how good the music was despite not hearing much about it.
I haven't played since 17 but Junko was pretty cool, I like how she basically soloed the moon people, who are the most OP characters otherwise. On her own I don't think she's much stronger than Kanako. Touhou 17's Extra boss is basically on the same level as the 4th boss, a mafia leader but not a goddess level either. There's also the fighting games, have you played any of those? Some of the new characters there are pretty cool too.

GiftedACIII posted...

Agreed, I find DDC a very underrated game. I was playing UFO, TD, and then DDC in a row after a break from the series and I was surprised at how fun DDC was and also how good the music was despite not hearing much about it.
I haven't played since 17 but Junko was pretty cool, I like how she basically soloed the moon people, who are the most OP characters otherwise. On her own I don't think she's much stronger than Kanako. Touhou 17's Extra boss is basically on the same level as the 4th boss, a mafia leader but not a goddess level either. There's also the fighting games, have you played any of those? Some of the new characters there are pretty cool too.

I wasn't crazy for 14's music. Stage 1 was good, then it wasn't until stage 5 it picked up again. Raiko has a pretty good song.
And speaking of going back to older games, how come he's made 3 of these Touhou 3 style 2v2s but we've never gotten a second Imperishable Night style game with character duos and an alternate final boss route? That plus picking any two characters instead of a preset pair sounds pretty good.

As for newer characters, I just think it's lame when a final boss coasts by on deity status and an innate implied threat rather than actually going out and causing problems.

Someone I know had two of the fighting games, so I've played Hisoutensoku and Hopeless Masquerade very briefly. I was pretty picky about fighting games at the time so I didn't really get into them. Most of the novelty was seeing the characters in another style of game.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

I wasn't crazy for 14's music. Stage 1 was good, then it wasn't until stage 5 it picked up again. Raiko has a pretty good song.
And speaking of going back to older games, how come he's made 3 of these Touhou 3 style 2v2s but we've never gotten a second Imperishable Night style game with character duos and an alternate final boss route? That plus picking any two characters instead of a preset pair sounds pretty good.

As for newer characters, I just think it's lame when a final boss coasts by on deity status and an innate implied threat rather than actually going out and causing problems.

Someone I know had two of the fighting games, so I've played Hisoutensoku and Hopeless Masquerade very briefly. I was pretty picky about fighting games at the time so I didn't really get into them. Most of the novelty was seeing the characters in another style of game.

Stage 1 is actually the only one I dislike lol. I liked both stage and boss theme for 2, 3, 4 (well the boss theme isn't as good imo), and 5 and 6 and Extra are especially great. I think Little Princess is one of the best final boss themes.
Speaking of final boss themes, I always thought the Extra boss themes in the older games were the best but starting from UFO I feel like the Stage 6/final boss themes started surpassing the Extras for some reason. Even Okina's Stage 6 boss theme Concealed Four Seasons is better than her "true form" theme, which I can't even remember the name of.

I think Imperishable Night was just very ambitious. iirc he was kind of figuring it'd be the last Touhou game or something. You can tell MoF was again kind of a reboot of sorts/the start of a new arc, going back to just Reimu and Marisa and focusing on an entirely new cast with no returning characters from past games.

I think most final bosses even in the older games weren't very active either though? They mostly do one thing which causes a bad side effect that gets Reimu and co on their tails. Junko and Okina are even pretty active by intentionally sending their lackeys to "invade/collect" instead of the stage 5 bosses mainly just being bodyguards like Sakuya, Youmu, Reisen, Sanae etc.

Yeah, the novelty is definitely true. Some of the attacks are really cool especially from HM and up. Mamizou transforming characters is especially great.

GiftedACIII posted...

Stage 1 is actually the only one I dislike lol. I liked both stage and boss theme for 2, 3, 4 (well the boss theme isn't as good imo), and 5 and 6 and Extra are especially great. I think Little Princess is one of the best final boss themes.

I don't know why 14's final boss theme didn't make much of an impression on me. Maybe because it was trying to be slower and more grandiose meanwhile the character you're fighting isn't even the real villain, Seija - who was already beaten - is. Maybe arranges have done it the justice the boss fight didn't.

GiftedACIII posted...

I think Imperishable Night was just very ambitious. iirc he was kind of figuring it'd be the last Touhou game or something. You can tell MoF was again kind of a reboot of sorts/the start of a new arc, going back to just Reimu and Marisa and focusing on an entirely new cast with no returning characters from past games.

No idea what he was thinking between games, but they do split it up into like windows era 1 and windows era 2 don't they? I still think it's weird he went the extra mile and replaced all the bombs with the big laser circle thing. It's a good move utility wise but it's not exciting.
If you think about it, it's bad for the MoF characters' image. Like Marisa saw them on top of the mountain, chuckled and didn't even bother bringing the Master Spark along.

GiftedACIII posted...

I think most final bosses even in the older games weren't very active either though? They mostly do one thing which causes a bad side effect that gets Reimu and co on their tails. Junko and Okina are even pretty active by intentionally sending their lackeys to "invade/collect" instead of the stage 5 bosses mainly just being bodyguards like Sakuya, Youmu, Reisen, Sanae etc.

I wasn't really getting at how active. I mean how they're presented overall.
Remilia lives in a castle, declares herself to be related to Dracula, curses the land to be covered in red mist. Has 3 minions for you to fight in a row of different temperaments that give you the idea Remilia really just does whatever she wants and the rest just go with it. Throw in a pretty good song and a challenging enough fight and you've got a winner.

And then. Kanako. It's a god on a mountain. Doesn't really do much until later games remedy this. The random denizens of the mountain all seem more interesting. There's nothing at the top of the mountain apart from enough room for a boss fight. Even Kanako's minion, Sanae, is more interesting by being an anti-Reimu.
It's kind of like what I said earlier about Touhou 14. Seija's the villain in that, the final boss is just the last thing to clear up afterward.

And I do think only showing up at the end can work. Byakuren's pretty good. 4 out of 5 bosses are her weird cultists, you have the whole stage 6 where it's a really quiet song and you feel like the game's just giving you a chance to refuel. Then she shows up at the end with the ominous sunset background and the two-color hair and the big laser scroll, that song and a pretty difficult (imo) final boss fight. It's great.

GiftedACIII posted...

Yeah, the novelty is definitely true. Some of the attacks are really cool especially from HM and up. Mamizou transforming characters is especially great.

This has just made me remember how inexplicable it was when Byakuren showed up on a bike in one of these games.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

The other day I watched that video of the guy who played Ikaruga every day for a year. It got me wanting to play a bullet hell again.
But apparently I wasn't that motivated, because I settled for watching a playthrough of TH19.

Not really going for the gameplay at all. I think Goku's in this one. Marisa's design looks kinda off. wtf at diagonal horns Suika, did she get into a barfight with Yuugi and get physically reconfigured?
Final boss theme is unexpectedly different.

I saw that video too recently. I've been playing shmups for a long time, but it did encourage me to play Ikaruga again.

Goku isn't literally in touhou 19. The new character who's compared to goku is Son Biten - a monkey youkai who tries to be like Sun Wukong.

if rabi-ribi counts oh my god i fucking love the soundtrack so much, i feel like i catch all the little homages and i saw daniel fucking brown somewhere and that's the dude from like 2003 who did the castlevania piano video and that's Fucking Rad

ViewtifulJoe posted...

I don't know why 14's final boss theme didn't make much of an impression on me. Maybe because it was trying to be slower and more grandiose meanwhile the character you're fighting isn't even the real villain, Seija - who was already beaten - is. Maybe arranges have done it the justice the boss fight didn't.

Most of the final boss themes are slower and more grandiose though, ie Septette, Border of Life, Lunatic Princess, Emotional Skyscraper. Utsuho's Nuclear Fusion, Miko's and Kanako's being the exception there. I like Sukuna's theme because it does sound like she's the underdog there and the section in the middle is very beautiful before getting to a strong climax. I also like that the stage theme builds up to it. I actually like the new trend of the stage 6 theme being a slower build up remix of the final boss theme. Most of the previous stage 6 themes are generally a bit middling with only PCB's stage 6 being one I really like.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

No idea what he was thinking between games, but they do split it up into like windows era 1 and windows era 2 don't they? I still think it's weird he went the extra mile and replaced all the bombs with the big laser circle thing. It's a good move utility wise but it's not exciting.
If you think about it, it's bad for the MoF characters' image. Like Marisa saw them on top of the mountain, chuckled and didn't even bother bringing the Master Spark along.

Do they? Seems kind of weird to have 3 numbered games being 1 era and around 9 games being the 2nd lol. But yeah, the MoF and SA bombs were pretty lame. Glad UFO went back to the screen clearing bombs although I'm not really a fan of UFO and TD's 2 bomb per life system either. I like DDC bringing it back to the classic method.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

I wasn't really getting at how active. I mean how they're presented overall.
Remilia lives in a castle, declares herself to be related to Dracula, curses the land to be covered in red mist. Has 3 minions for you to fight in a row of different temperaments that give you the idea Remilia really just does whatever she wants and the rest just go with it. Throw in a pretty good song and a challenging enough fight and you've got a winner.

And then. Kanako. It's a god on a mountain. Doesn't really do much until later games remedy this. The random denizens of the mountain all seem more interesting. There's nothing at the top of the mountain apart from enough room for a boss fight. Even Kanako's minion, Sanae, is more interesting by being an anti-Reimu.
It's kind of like what I said earlier about Touhou 14. Seija's the villain in that, the final boss is just the last thing to clear up afterward.

And I do think only showing up at the end can work. Byakuren's pretty good. 4 out of 5 bosses are her weird cultists, you have the whole stage 6 where it's a really quiet song and you feel like the game's just giving you a chance to refuel. Then she shows up at the end with the ominous sunset background and the two-color hair and the big laser scroll, that song and a pretty difficult (imo) final boss fight. It's great.

I see, this is more about characters like Remilia, Kanako, Utsuho (although Satori is the leader of their group) and Byakuren having multiple stage bosses under their command whereas characters like Sukuna, Junko, and Okina only having a single stage boss associated with them. I can see how there's a difference there. Although tbf IN is also like that, with the first 4 bosses not related to Kaguya and the moon people at all.
ViewtifulJoe posted...

This has just made me remember how inexplicable it was when Byakuren showed up on a bike in one of these games.

Bike Byakuren is great lol. The fighting games had some really innovative stuff in the later games, fleshed out some of the characters a bit more too like Nitori originally just being some shy kappa to being very tech savvy and Futo... kind of just being there to being a goofball and throwing plates. Or Doremy using dreams to turn into a sheep mech or something.

GiftedACIII posted...

Most of the final boss themes are slower and more grandiose though, ie Septette, Border of Life, Lunatic Princess, Emotional Skyscraper. Utsuho's Nuclear Fusion, Miko's and Kanako's being the exception there. I like Sukuna's theme because it does sound like she's the underdog there and the section in the middle is very beautiful before getting to a strong climax. I also like that the stage theme builds up to it. I actually like the new trend of the stage 6 theme being a slower build up remix of the final boss theme. Most of the previous stage 6 themes are generally a bit middling with only PCB's stage 6 being one I really like.

That's true. Maybe I get less of an underdog vibe and it's more like I'm hearing a big grandiose song in a fight where I don't really buy it as the song.
As for stage 6 themes I always really liked Hellfire Mantle. It's a nice middle between stage 5's theme and the final boss theme.

GiftedACIII posted...

Do they? Seems kind of weird to have 3 numbered games being 1 era and around 9 games being the 2nd lol. But yeah, the MoF and SA bombs were pretty lame. Glad UFO went back to the screen clearing bombs although I'm not really a fan of UFO and TD's 2 bomb per life system either. I like DDC bringing it back to the classic method.

Yeah, I definitely used to see this. I don't know what they're doing now that there's a bunch more games, but people used to draw a line between 6/7/8 and 10/11/12.

I'll actually go to bat for one of SA's. My favorite loadout was the Reimu/Suika one. It had that bomb where it creates a portal and if any projectiles hit it, they turn into homing shots and fire back. I don't know if it's just me but that thing actually made me want to turn the difficulty up so I could get more mileage out of it.
The Alice one isn't great or flashy either but having 8 of them on hand is kind of nice.

I didn't mind how UFO handled it. My old strat was to only go for green UFOs, hoard bombs since they accumulated faster than lives and count on myself to use them instead of dying. I deliberately never looked up any optimal UFO collection strategies because I wanted to keep it interesting.

GiftedACIII posted...

I see, this is more about characters like Remilia, Kanako, Utsuho (although Satori is the leader of their group) and Byakuren having multiple stage bosses under their command whereas characters like Sukuna, Junko, and Okina only having a single stage boss associated with them. I can see how there's a difference there. Although tbf IN is also like that, with the first 4 bosses not related to Kaguya and the moon people at all.

Something like that. IN is its own beast though, has more than enough characters. Three local crazy people, one of two player characters as a boss. Reisen/Tewi/Eirin/Kaguya and you might not count it but I'd put Mokou in that group. I don't think I'd go as far as to group Keine in just because she's in the extra stage but it's cool she comes back powered up. It's like a supervillain team where they all have their own thing that makes them stand out.
More memorable than maybe 1 minion and being briefly assured that the final boss is a very important and powerful deity.

GiftedACIII posted...

Bike Byakuren is great lol. The fighting games had some really innovative stuff in the later games, fleshed out some of the characters a bit more too like Nitori originally just being some shy kappa to being very tech savvy and Futo... kind of just being there to being a goofball and throwing plates. Or Doremy using dreams to turn into a sheep mech or something.

Yeah everyone who gets into these gets a little zanier. Sometimes I wonder what would happen if Kogasa got into one of these. Would they give her so much weird, unexpected stuff that suddenly the rest of the characters don't seem as special?

ViewtifulJoe posted...

That's true. Maybe I get less of an underdog vibe and it's more like I'm hearing a big grandiose song in a fight where I don't really buy it as the song.
As for stage 6 themes I always really liked Hellfire Mantle. It's a nice middle between stage 5's theme and the final boss theme.

I can see that lol, the song becomes much better if you take it as Sukuna making her last stand since the climatic melody has a sense of beautiful melancholy and urgency. The entire song is pretty melancholic actually while staying fast paced as a boss song (unlike Heian alien, my least favorite Extra boss theme).
Hellfire mantle is up there, yeah. It seem stage 6 themes are just shorter and less thought out because stage 6s are the shortest levels after stage 1. I think most are even shorter than stage 2. It's why the "boss buildup" themes are better imo.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

Yeah, I definitely used to see this. I don't know what they're doing now that there's a bunch more games, but people used to draw a line between 6/7/8 and 10/11/12.

I'll actually go to bat for one of SA's. My favorite loadout was the Reimu/Suika one. It had that bomb where it creates a portal and if any projectiles hit it, they turn into homing shots and fire back. I don't know if it's just me but that thing actually made me want to turn the difficulty up so I could get more mileage out of it.
The Alice one isn't great or flashy either but having 8 of them on hand is kind of nice.

I didn't mind how UFO handled it. My old strat was to only go for green UFOs, hoard bombs since they accumulated faster than lives and count on myself to use them instead of dying. I deliberately never looked up any optimal UFO collection strategies because I wanted to keep it interesting.

I've seen people separate them as story arcs. Like the first windows trilogy has the characters all reappear together (a bit similar with the PC-98 games. 10-13 is mostly related to Moriya and the aftermath of Kanako's incident. 14-17 is semi connected to the mangas and started bringing back stage 5 bosses again. Not sure about 18 since I haven't played it.

SA's was very fun and gimmicky once you finally get invested into the system but it's definitely not very accessible. iirc Reimu/Yukari is the one most people just default to.
UFO I collected lives because they were more reliable than bombs. Although the fact that I usually try to capture cards instead of just bombing away the ones I know I generally can't do might play a part so it's probably just a me thing here.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

That's true. Maybe I get less of an underdog vibe and it's more like I'm hearing a big grandiose song in a fight where I don't really buy it as the song.
As for stage 6 themes I always really liked Hellfire Mantle. It's a nice middle between stage 5's theme and the final boss theme.

I can see that lol, the song becomes much better if you take it as Sukuna making her last stand since the climatic melody has a sense of beautiful melancholy and urgency. The entire song is pretty melancholic actually while staying fast paced as a boss song (unlike Heian alien, my least favorite Extra boss theme).
Hellfire mantle is up there, yeah. It seem stage 6 themes are just shorter and less thought out because stage 6s are the shortest levels after stage 1. I think most are even shorter than stage 2. It's why the "boss buildup" themes are better imo.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

Yeah, I definitely used to see this. I don't know what they're doing now that there's a bunch more games, but people used to draw a line between 6/7/8 and 10/11/12.

I'll actually go to bat for one of SA's. My favorite loadout was the Reimu/Suika one. It had that bomb where it creates a portal and if any projectiles hit it, they turn into homing shots and fire back. I don't know if it's just me but that thing actually made me want to turn the difficulty up so I could get more mileage out of it.
The Alice one isn't great or flashy either but having 8 of them on hand is kind of nice.

I didn't mind how UFO handled it. My old strat was to only go for green UFOs, hoard bombs since they accumulated faster than lives and count on myself to use them instead of dying. I deliberately never looked up any optimal UFO collection strategies because I wanted to keep it interesting.

I've seen people separate them as story arcs. Like the first windows trilogy has the characters all reappear together (a bit similar with the PC-98 games. 10-13 is mostly related to Moriya and the aftermath of Kanako's incident. 14-17 is semi connected to the mangas and started bringing back stage 5 bosses again. Not sure about 18 since I haven't played it.

SA's was very fun and gimmicky once you finally get invested into the system but it's definitely not very accessible. iirc Reimu/Yukari is the one most people just default to.
UFO I collected lives because they were more reliable than bombs. Although the fact that I usually try to capture cards instead of just bombing away the ones I know I generally can't do might play a part so it's probably just a me thing here.
ViewtifulJoe posted...

Something like that. IN is its own beast though, has more than enough characters. Three local crazy people, one of two player characters as a boss. Reisen/Tewi/Eirin/Kaguya and you might not count it but I'd put Mokou in that group. I don't think I'd go as far as to group Keine in just because she's in the extra stage but it's cool she comes back powered up. It's like a supervillain team where they all have their own thing that makes them stand out.
More memorable than maybe 1 minion and being briefly assured that the final boss is a very important and powerful deity.

tbf most of the characters are the returning playable characters. If IN only had Reimu/Marisa/Youmu I'd actually probably find the incident to be a bit middling myself. It doesn't help that I'm really not a fan of Kaguya/Eirin. I forget Tewi exists half the time too.
Most extra bosses are connected somehow. Junko also has Hecatia with her along with Clownpiece. But they're usually removed enough from the initial impressions from the main game. Okina (TH16) is definitely a bit lacking there though having only 1 (duo) subordinate and then taking the spot of both final boss and extra boss lol.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

Yeah everyone who gets into these gets a little zanier. Sometimes I wonder what would happen if Kogasa got into one of these. Would they give her so much weird, unexpected stuff that suddenly the rest of the characters don't seem as special?

She does appear in 17.5! Not as wacky as the fighting games but still something fun. I haven't played that one either though other than the demo. I hear Flandre returns for the first time in an actual speaking role since EoSD.

GiftedACIII posted...

I can see that lol, the song becomes much better if you take it as Sukuna making her last stand since the climatic melody has a sense of beautiful melancholy and urgency. The entire song is pretty melancholic actually while staying fast paced as a boss song (unlike Heian alien, my least favorite Extra boss theme).
Hellfire mantle is up there, yeah. It seem stage 6 themes are just shorter and less thought out because stage 6s are the shortest levels after stage 1. I think most are even shorter than stage 2. It's why the "boss buildup" themes are better imo.

I like when Heian Alien slows down, weirdly enough.
Middle of nowhere up in the sky at night. Nue isn't really a huge threat, local nuisance at best. Even her spellcards aren't that strong. It sounds like what it's probably meant to be, less of a threat and more of a fight with a weirdo to tie up the last loose end. I like stuff like that.
Whenever I think of that fight, the first two things I think of are the timeout card while the music slows down then gradually builds back up, and how inexplicably bad I am at capturing Undefined Darkness.

If I had to pick a least favorite between 6-15, that's kinda hard. I'd probably go with both Ran and Yukari from 7, the songs just never clicked.

GiftedACIII posted...

I've seen people separate them as story arcs. Like the first windows trilogy has the characters all reappear together (a bit similar with the PC-98 games. 10-13 is mostly related to Moriya and the aftermath of Kanako's incident. 14-17 is semi connected to the mangas and started bringing back stage 5 bosses again. Not sure about 18 since I haven't played it.

SA's was very fun and gimmicky once you finally get invested into the system but it's definitely not very accessible. iirc Reimu/Yukari is the one most people just default to.
UFO I collected lives because they were more reliable than bombs. Although the fact that I usually try to capture cards instead of just bombing away the ones I know I generally can't do might play a part so it's probably just a me thing here.

That's probably the best way of looking at it. 13.5 does sort of feel like the culmination of those few games, with 12 and 13's characters facing off and everyone else showing up to fill level backgrounds.
Makes me feel cheated a little, like we should have a had a playable character from SA in a mainline game sooner.
I noticed that about 11 too. I'd rather have buffs than nerfs so instead of pulling Reimu/Yukari down I'd like if they made Aya and Nitori's shot types better.

GiftedACIII posted...

tbf most of the characters are the returning playable characters. If IN only had Reimu/Marisa/Youmu I'd actually probably find the incident to be a bit middling myself. It doesn't help that I'm really not a fan of Kaguya/Eirin. I forget Tewi exists half the time too.
Most extra bosses are connected somehow. Junko also has Hecatia with her along with Clownpiece. But they're usually removed enough from the initial impressions from the main game. Okina (TH16) is definitely a bit lacking there though having only 1 (duo) subordinate and then taking the spot of both final boss and extra boss lol.

I think I'd still be happy with IN as a game under those circumstances, but it'd definitely lose some gravitas if two previous final bosses didn't get up and personally go to deal with Kaguya. Still, eternal night time + a decoy final boss + the local crazies. It's something.

There's no real rule book on extras, but I like something unusual. Okina's gotta be the worst offender, even if occupying both positions was unprecedented. The best thing Mamizou has going for her is probably her tenuous connection to the rest of the game. Shows up, is late for the video game, has probably been drinking, is certain she could beat up the protagonist though. I get a kick out of that.

GiftedACIII posted...

She does appear in 17.5! Not as wacky as the fighting games but still something fun. I haven't played that one either though other than the demo. I hear Flandre returns for the first time in an actual speaking role since EoSD.

Looked it up. They stuck to the water attacks, which is kind of a shame.
I like that take on her theme though.
Game reminds me of that 2D Castlevania fighter someone made more than the other Touhou fighters..

ViewtifulJoe posted...

I like when Heian Alien slows down, weirdly enough.
Middle of nowhere up in the sky at night. Nue isn't really a huge threat, local nuisance at best. Even her spellcards aren't that strong. It sounds like what it's probably meant to be, less of a threat and more of a fight with a weirdo to tie up the last loose end. I like stuff like that.
Whenever I think of that fight, the first two things I think of are the timeout card while the music slows down then gradually builds back up, and how inexplicably bad I am at capturing Undefined Darkness.

If I had to pick a least favorite between 6-15, that's kinda hard. I'd probably go with both Ran and Yukari from 7, the songs just never clicked.

Interesting. Raiko's is also like that I believe. I like Primordial Beat's melody and beat (heh) a lot more though. One of the other things about Heian Alien for me is that a section of it is exactly the Fire Emblem Fates Lost in Thoughts theme and that was used so much it became my least favorite FE leitmotif. Necrofantasy/Necrofantasia are one of of my favorite tracks in the series though. It's really just the quintessential Touhou theme imo with the fast paced piano, synths, zunpets, and strings.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

That's probably the best way of looking at it. 13.5 does sort of feel like the culmination of those few games, with 12 and 13's characters facing off and everyone else showing up to fill level backgrounds.
Makes me feel cheated a little, like we should have a had a playable character from SA in a mainline game sooner.
I noticed that about 11 too. I'd rather have buffs than nerfs so instead of pulling Reimu/Yukari down I'd like if they made Aya and Nitori's shot types better.

For some reason ZUN stopped with the stage 5 boss being a new Player Character after SA. Sanae became the last recurring player character. It even took awhile until Sakuya and Youmu started returning. 15 unexpectantly had Reisen but then it went back to Youmu and Sakuya. 16 did have Cirno and Aya as amusing gimmicks though lol.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

I think I'd still be happy with IN as a game under those circumstances, but it'd definitely lose some gravitas if two previous final bosses didn't get up and personally go to deal with Kaguya. Still, eternal night time + a decoy final boss + the local crazies. It's something.

There's no real rule book on extras, but I like something unusual. Okina's gotta be the worst offender, even if occupying both positions was unprecedented. The best thing Mamizou has going for her is probably her tenuous connection to the rest of the game. Shows up, is late for the video game, has probably been drinking, is certain she could beat up the protagonist though. I get a kick out of that.

Agreed. How does UM do it? I haven't spoiled myself much on UM. Although maybe you haven't checked out anything of it either? In WBaWC, it's a bit unique in that the stage 1-4 and extra bosses are both against the final boss who has a single subordinate. However the stage 4 boss is like Satori in being very relevant to the game unlike many other stage 4s.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

Looked it up. They stuck to the water attacks, which is kind of a shame.
I like that take on her theme though.
Game reminds me of that 2D Castlevania fighter someone made more than the other Touhou fighters..

Yeah, it isn't a fighter. It's a beat-em-up. It's single player only last I checked.

Amusing.

Fandom is also amusing. Speaking of, anyone know where that 10-15 year old video is of one of the characters, or maybe an early Miku Hatsune clone, where they wake up, and go on an adventure in a hybrid post-apocalypse/super mario land world with some random powerups and a hot air balloon, only to find their former master's grave and then cry, which then revives the world?

I seem to have lost it.

Havent 1cced any on Normal yet, but I did complete Mountain of Faith Extra somehow

Rika_Furude posted...

Havent 1cced any on Normal yet, but I did complete Mountain of Faith Extra somehow

Were you using that glitch?

GiftedACIII posted...

Interesting. Raiko's is also like that I believe. I like Primordial Beat's melody and beat (heh) a lot more though. One of the other things about Heian Alien for me is that a section of it is exactly the Fire Emblem Fates Lost in Thoughts theme and that was used so much it became my least favorite FE leitmotif. Necrofantasy/Necrofantasia are one of of my favorite tracks in the series though. It's really just the quintessential Touhou theme imo with the fast paced piano, synths, zunpets, and strings.

Yeah Raiko has that as well. It has the whole middle of nowhere, disconnected from the rest of the plot sound down. Doesn't feel very conclusive or important though, I do like it but similar to Utsuho being before Satori in Double Spoiler, it sometimes makes me wonder if any time Raiko shows up again, she'll be demoted.

I don't know exactly what I'd pick for a most ZUN sounding song, but it'd probably come from the middle of Mountain of Faith. Stage 3 or stage 4's themes maybe.

GiftedACIII posted...

For some reason ZUN stopped with the stage 5 boss being a new Player Character after SA. Sanae became the last recurring player character. It even took awhile until Sakuya and Youmu started returning. 15 unexpectantly had Reisen but then it went back to Youmu and Sakuya. 16 did have Cirno and Aya as amusing gimmicks though lol.

Maybe it's just the clearest way of announcing the story's changing direction again. Start out small, go back to two characters.

GiftedACIII posted...

Agreed. How does UM do it? I haven't spoiled myself much on UM. Although maybe you haven't checked out anything of it either? In WBaWC, it's a bit unique in that the stage 1-4 and extra bosses are both against the final boss who has a single subordinate. However the stage 4 boss is like Satori in being very relevant to the game unlike many other stage 4s.

I actually do kind of remember UM's arcade mode. It's something like you do a few fights, then in the middle you fight either Byakuren or Miko depending on who you picked. Then it turns out it was Mamizou in disguise, Mamizou gives you a time and places and challenges you to a real fight. You win that and move on to the final boss with all the masks.
The WBaWC one sounds more like something I'd like. Local nuisance antagonizes everyone including protagonist.

GiftedACIII posted...

Yeah, it isn't a fighter. It's a beat-em-up. It's single player only last I checked.

A beat em up in which Reimu now does the Sonic the Hedgehog spin jump apparently. Didn't see that coming.

My spicy take in all of this, is that I feel DDC has the weakest soundtrack out of all the main numbered games (outside of a few bangers like Thunderclouds of Magical Power and Raiko's theme)

FL81 posted...

My spicy take in all of this, is that I feel DDC has the weakest soundtrack out of all the main numbered games (outside of a few bangers like Thunderclouds of Magical Power and Raiko's theme)

I give it to 13.
With 14, I remember stages 1, 5 and extra pretty easily. Even if the stages felt disconnected at least the characters stuck out, which helps.
13, I really have to sit down and remember which characters were in that one and what their songs were.

With the newer games' music, I'm never terribly impressed on first listen, but going back later I realize "wow this is brilliant"

FL81 posted...

With the newer games' music, I'm never terribly impressed on first listen, but going back later I realize "wow this is brilliant"

What're the best songs from the newer games?

ViewtifulJoe posted...

Yeah Raiko has that as well. It has the whole middle of nowhere, disconnected from the rest of the plot sound down. Doesn't feel very conclusive or important though, I do like it but similar to Utsuho being before Satori in Double Spoiler, it sometimes makes me wonder if any time Raiko shows up again, she'll be demoted.

I don't know exactly what I'd pick for a most ZUN sounding song, but it'd probably come from the middle of Mountain of Faith. Stage 3 or stage 4's themes maybe.

Oh yeah, the gensokyo the gods loved is an iconic stage theme. I think it's more representative of an "early-midgame game feel" though. Cirno's theme and Shanghai Teahouse is another. I find Necrofantasia being the most emblematic of the fast-paced chaotic and high pitched final/extra boss themes. UN Owen is obviously another. Although I can understand if you may find them overrated due to just how saturated they are in the fandom lol.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

Maybe it's just the clearest way of announcing the story's changing direction again. Start out small, go back to two characters.

True, but I find just Reimu and Marisa pretty boring honestly. They haven't done that since MoF actually, every game since then had some form of third or fourth character, even after the "Moriya arc" DDC and up. Sanae basically became a main recurring character though (she sat out 16 and 17)

ViewtifulJoe posted...

I actually do kind of remember UM's arcade mode. It's something like you do a few fights, then in the middle you fight either Byakuren or Miko depending on who you picked. Then it turns out it was Mamizou in disguise, Mamizou gives you a time and places and challenges you to a real fight. You win that and move on to the final boss with all the masks.
The WBaWC one sounds more like something I'd like. Local nuisance antagonizes everyone including protagonist.

I was about to say, I'm very surprised to hear that you fight two stage 6 bosses from previous games in the middle of the game but then I realized you were talking about HM, Hopeless Masquerade the 13.5 fighting game, not UM, Unconnected Marketeers- Touhou 18 lol.
I actually played HM fully with every character. It was a lot of fun, actually, this was when the fighting games started getting really creative. When you say you remember it does that mean you played it too?

ViewtifulJoe posted...

A beat em up in which Reimu now does the Sonic the Hedgehog spin jump apparently. Didn't see that coming.

ZUN can be pretty unpredictable. One of the things I like about him.

FL81 posted...

My spicy take in all of this, is that I feel DDC has the weakest soundtrack out of all the main numbered games (outside of a few bangers like Thunderclouds of Magical Power and Raiko's theme)

I don't think it's that spicy of a take since I've heard it quite a few times but I never got it. I like all the tracks in that game except the stage 1 themes. As I mentioned I think Sukuna has one of the best final boss themes too.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

I give it to 13.
With 14, I remember stages 1, 5 and extra pretty easily. Even if the stages felt disconnected at least the characters stuck out, which helps.
13, I really have to sit down and remember which characters were in that one and what their songs were.

Yeah, 13 is very slow-paced and is a bit experimental. The best and most iconic track from that game is actually the stage 4 theme, Desire Drive.
Here are two remixes I like of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10xIOSlNaiM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtTYQuO1j6w

GiftedACIII posted...

Oh yeah, the gensokyo the gods loved is an iconic stage theme. I think it's more representative of an "early-midgame game feel" though. Cirno's theme and Shanghai Teahouse is another. I find Necrofantasia being the most emblematic of the fast-paced chaotic and high pitched final/extra boss themes. UN Owen is obviously another. Although I can understand if you may find them overrated due to just how saturated they are in the fandom lol.

I don't really mind those songs. Sometimes people tell you the themes' owners are their favorite characters and you realise they don't play the games really fast, though. U.N. Owen like it or not is the Touhou song. And Touhou achieved that by riding Ronald McDonald's coattails. I'm not crazy about Native Faith but that's a real all rounder as far as Touhou music goes too.

GiftedACIII posted...

True, but I find just Reimu and Marisa pretty boring honestly. They haven't done that since MoF actually, every game since then had some form of third or fourth character, even after the "Moriya arc" DDC and up. Sanae basically became a main recurring character though (she sat out 16 and 17)

Reimu and Marisa are blank slates for people to make things up about. I don't dislike either, but if someone asked me which I preferred, I'd immediately assume it was a gameplay question. Homing shots vs piercing lasers. There's not a whole lot there, character-wise.
Doesn't really have to be though. Something I used to enjoy in games but rarely encounter now because of diverging interests is in-jokes amplifying characters and stories. Nowadays people all go online, find out what the big accepted joke for a game is and all just repeat that. No spontaneity. Touhou used have a lot of people making dumb things up about the characters.

GiftedACIII posted...

I was about to say, I'm very surprised to hear that you fight two stage 6 bosses from previous games in the middle of the game but then I realized you were talking about HM, Hopeless Masquerade the 13.5 fighting game, not UM, Unconnected Marketeers- Touhou 18 lol.
I actually played HM fully with every character. It was a lot of fun, actually, this was when the fighting games started getting really creative. When you say you remember it does that mean you played it too?

Oh my bad, I only have the abbreviations memorised up to LoLK. I call the subsequent ones by their number.
I played 13.5 very briefly, mostly curious to see what it was like since it was so different from the grounded fighters. I never tried the follow up with more characters though. Music was good.

GiftedACIII posted...

Yeah, 13 is very slow-paced and is a bit experimental. The best and most iconic track from that game is actually the stage 4 theme, Desire Drive.
Here are two remixes I like of it.

That one definitely feels like the favorite. Puts Seiga right with Nitori and Keine in the stage theme better than boss theme club. I feel like people remember the stage 3 graveyard theme over the zombie boss' theme too.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

I don't really mind those songs. Sometimes people tell you the themes' owners are their favorite characters and you realise they don't play the games really fast, though. U.N. Owen like it or not is the Touhou song. And Touhou achieved that by riding Ronald McDonald's coattails. I'm not crazy about Native Faith but that's a real all rounder as far as Touhou music goes too.

There was also that little Death Waltz stint too. I actually knew somebody in real life who recognized the song as "Death Waltz" when I played it on piano but not its actual origin.
Native Faith is pretty good too, I think the piano is one of the best parts about Touhou songs, particularly the earlier ones. Speaking of piano, Reimu's main theme, Maiden's Capriccio is one of the premier examples. I didn't really like Wind God Girl, Aya's theme from Touhou 9 in the game but the full version from one of the music albums is so much better due to the long piano solo after the "game" part was done.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

Reimu and Marisa are blank slates for people to make things up about. I don't dislike either, but if someone asked me which I preferred, I'd immediately assume it was a gameplay question. Homing shots vs piercing lasers. There's not a whole lot there, character-wise.
Doesn't really have to be though. Something I used to enjoy in games but rarely encounter now because of diverging interests is in-jokes amplifying characters and stories. Nowadays people all go online, find out what the big accepted joke for a game is and all just repeat that. No spontaneity. Touhou used have a lot of people making dumb things up about the characters.

Oh, I absolutely like them as characters. They're pretty fun in the official mangas that I've seen too. I just think it's way more interesting when having multiple characters. Touhou 5 was multiple characters all the way since PC-98 days. Reimu and Marisa is basically the difference between reliability and power. Although ever since Reimu lost her smaller hitbox in TH16 and up it seems Marisa is actually the more rounded and reliable choice.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

Oh my bad, I only have the abbreviations memorised up to LoLK. I call the subsequent ones by their number.
I played 13.5 very briefly, mostly curious to see what it was like since it was so different from the grounded fighters. I never tried the follow up with more characters though. Music was good.

Oh for some reason I thought you'd recognize the abbreviations more than the numbers. Yeah, I think the numbers would be easier to remember from now on. The follow ups are even better I believe. The characters get more moves and the portraits are drawn by Forbidden Scrollery's decent art instead of 13.5's weird portraits. Yeah, Kokoro's music is pretty good. I like it more than the previous two fighter bosses, Suika, and Tenshi's.

ViewtifulJoe posted...

That one definitely feels like the favorite. Puts Seiga right with Nitori and Keine in the stage theme better than boss theme club. I feel like people remember the stage 3 graveyard theme over the zombie boss' theme too.

I think most of TD's stage theme is seen as better than the boss. Stage 5 is also much nicer to listen to than Futo's theme (which isn't that good, I think the remixes in the fighters are much better). Kyouko also has one of the blandest boss themes in the series. Miko and Mamizou are the exception.

Outside of those games, Shanghai Teahouse and Mystic Oriental Dream seem to be more iconic than their respective boss themes as well, the latter is most notable since Youmu is one of the most popular characters so it's interesting how her stage theme is the one that she's most associated with. Especially since Nitori still uses her boss theme in the fighting games.
Also Clownpiece's stage 5 theme and Unlocated Hell, the stage 4 theme of Touhou 17 are much better than the boss theme too.

My hottest take is that the mainline titles should get console releases.

GiftedACIII posted...

There was also that little Death Waltz stint too. I actually knew somebody in real life who recognized the song as "Death Waltz" when I played it on piano but not its actual origin.
Native Faith is pretty good too, I think the piano is one of the best parts about Touhou songs, particularly the earlier ones. Speaking of piano, Reimu's main theme, Maiden's Capriccio is one of the premier examples. I didn't really like Wind God Girl, Aya's theme from Touhou 9 in the game but the full version from one of the music albums is so much better due to the long piano solo after the "game" part was done.

When I was really into the games, whenever I found a song I liked I'd immediately go see if any of the usual suspects had made a good metal/rock version. There used to be a guy on Youtube who would upload multi-hour compilations of arranges for each Touhou 10-12 character and stage. It disappeared at some point. Some of those were peak comfort and it was a great way to find rare arranges.
Maiden's Capriccio was one of those songs where for some reason it was always really difficult to find a lot of versions of it I liked. Something about it made people want to experiment and go crazy I guess.

GiftedACIII posted...

Oh, I absolutely like them as characters. They're pretty fun in the official mangas that I've seen too. I just think it's way more interesting when having multiple characters. Touhou 5 was multiple characters all the way since PC-98 days. Reimu and Marisa is basically the difference between reliability and power. Although ever since Reimu lost her smaller hitbox in TH16 and up it seems Marisa is actually the more rounded and reliable choice.

That smaller hitbox was there for a long time, taking it away just seems wrong. Reimu is still the default until the homing shots are taken away. If that happens then I have no idea what ZUN's doing.

GiftedACIII posted...

Oh for some reason I thought you'd recognize the abbreviations more than the numbers. Yeah, I think the numbers would be easier to remember from now on. The follow ups are even better I believe. The characters get more moves and the portraits are drawn by Forbidden Scrollery's decent art instead of 13.5's weird portraits. Yeah, Kokoro's music is pretty good. I like it more than the previous two fighter bosses, Suika, and Tenshi's.

I liked Tenshi's more than the other two. That was another song that was hard to find good arranges of. Which is kind of messed up because even though it's a side game, it's still a final boss theme.

GiftedACIII posted...

I think most of TD's stage theme is seen as better than the boss. Stage 5 is also much nicer to listen to than Futo's theme (which isn't that good, I think the remixes in the fighters are much better). Kyouko also has one of the blandest boss themes in the series. Miko and Mamizou are the exception.

Outside of those games, Shanghai Teahouse and Mystic Oriental Dream seem to be more iconic than their respective boss themes as well, the latter is most notable since Youmu is one of the most popular characters so it's interesting how her stage theme is the one that she's most associated with. Especially since Nitori still uses her boss theme in the fighting games.
Also Clownpiece's stage 5 theme and Unlocated Hell, the stage 4 theme of Touhou 17 are much better than the boss theme too.

Every now and then I see people try to put Byakuren down with these. Like sure Fires of Hokkai is different and some people like that but did they even hear the final boss theme it's competing with?

Orin kind of has this. Her stage theme is a lot more distinct at least. Maybe Yuugi earlier in 11 as well?
Aya's a weird case. See I think her stage theme in 10 stomps her boss theme (Which isn't even bad) but then she technically has a bunch of other themes in different games and spinoffs making up for it.

I think Keine's far and away the most severe case though. Old World might be the best song in that game meanwhile I struggle to remember what Plain Asia sounds like. And then she's in the extra stage so it's like she has a whole other stage theme for good measure.