Poll of the Day > HAMAS invades Israel

(+) Yeah! (+)

Quoting a modded post is not automatically modworthy

Lokarin posted...

A government has a right to defend themselves, and even attack, from terrorists; However, that government also has the responsibility to protect civilians even in hostile environments.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/29/hamas-israel-war-palestinian-civilians-jake-sullivan-comments?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

So basically the ones that attack Israel are not Palestinians and the ones that are attacked by Israel are Palestinians?

Lobomoon posted...

So basically the ones that attack Israel are not Palestinians and the ones that are attacked by Israel are Palestinians?

when people say that not all palestinians are hamas doesn't mean that hamas isn't also palestinian

Lokarin posted...

when people say that not all palestinians are hamas doesn't mean that hamas isn't also palestinian

So to be on the safe side we should both defend and attack them?

let me put it another way for you

Does France have the right to come to America and kill KKK members?

Lobomoon posted...

So basically the ones that attack Israel are not Palestinians and the ones that are attacked by Israel are Palestinians?

Uhh, no. The ones that attacked Israel are not civilians. The ones that are being slaughtered by Israel are civilians. Sharing a nationality with a terrorist doesn't mean you're responsible for that terrorism.

Seriously, what is the trouble you're having understanding this? The civilians being massacred by Israel are not Hamas. Why are you insisting that Hamas' actions justify massacring Palestinian civilians? Or is this all just a thinly-veiled way to say that you don't see a problem with murdering large numbers of Arabs?

Lobomoon posted...

So to be on the safe side we should both defend and attack them?

This is straight-up ignorant

Lobomoon posted...

That's weird - the mods deleted my post but not all the instances of people quoting it. At least someone here "picked a side". OK, I'll bite - what's the "proper way" to respond to a thousand Israelis killed by "not Palestinians"?

No, I don't have to choose between supporting terrorist attacks against Isreal citizens, or a full ground invasion of a crumbling "country" (concentration camp).

The Isreal government has to concede land, money, reparations, and cease their genocide of the Palastine people immediately. They won't do this, so the US has to pressure them. The US won't do that unless people mobilize massively on the issue. Most likely the only people who will win is Isreal, who will seige Gaza first chance they get.

Free Palastinian people = no terrorist group weaponizing hopelessness. This is a situation caused directly by Isreal.

These are just things that should happen. The world sucks and things won't happen, many people will die.

adjl posted...

Uhh, no. The ones that attacked Israel are not civilians. The ones that are being slaughtered by Israel are civilians. Sharing a nationality with a terrorist doesn't mean you're responsible for that terrorism.

Seriously, what is the trouble you're having understanding this? The civilians being massacred by Israel are not Hamas. Why are you insisting that Hamas' actions justify massacring Palestinian civilians? Or is this all just a thinly-veiled way to say that you don't see a problem with murdering large numbers of Arabs?

OK, let me put this in simpler terms. Those are considered crimes in US justice system:

• aiding and abetting
• accessory after the fact
• concealing a felon
• harboring a fugitive
• obstruction of justice

Correct?

Lobomoon posted...

OK, let me put this in simpler terms. Those are considered crimes in US justice system:

* aiding and abetting
* accessory after the fact
* concealing a felon
* harboring a fugitive
* obstruction of justice
Correct?

you know that requires the entities be, y'know, charged with a crime and not summarily executed

Lobomoon posted...

OK, let me put this in simpler terms. Those are considered crimes in US justice system:

* aiding and abetting
* accessory after the fact
* concealing a felon
* harboring a fugitive
* obstruction of justice
Correct?

By your logic every American is guilty of every crime of the US government XD

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2014-07-28/ty-article/we-can-never-forgive-them/0000017f-e587-da9b-a1ff-edefe0bd0000

Lokarin posted...

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2014-07-28/ty-article/we-can-never-forgive-them/0000017f-e587-da9b-a1ff-edefe0bd0000

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Lobomoon posted...

OK, let me put this in simpler terms. Those are considered crimes in US justice system:

aiding and abetting
accessory after the fact
concealing a felon
harboring a fugitive
obstruction of justice

Correct?

How many crimes on that list are capital offences? Moreover, is every single American guilty of those crimes because Americans exist who have committed crimes that could be aided/abetted? And do none of them deserve a trial in which their guilt of those crimes is proven before they're executed for them (again, crimes which are not capital offences in any jurisdiction in the US)?

The idea that every Palestinian deserves to be killed because they haven't done enough to hold Hamas accountable for their terrorist actions is horrific even at face value. When you take a moment to think about it for a moment and realize that half of the country's population is under 18 and therefore you're suggesting that goddamn children deserve to be executed without trial for said "crimes," you cross the line into fucking lunatic territory. So stahp.

For bonus points: The logic you're presenting here is exactly the same logic that flew planes into the World Trade Centre. Don't you just hate when you accidentally a whole Al'Qaeda?

Lokarin posted...

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2014-07-28/ty-article/we-can-never-forgive-them/0000017f-e587-da9b-a1ff-edefe0bd0000

Why did you make me hurt you, baby? Can't you see that I love you?

Am I a terrible person for wanting the Palestinians to move into the USA. It is clear there can never be a two state solution as long as Hamas is there.

We need to protect as much life as possible.

Devil_May_Cry posted...

Am I a terrible person for wanting the Palestinians to move into the USA. It is clear there can never be a two state solution as long as Hamas is there.

We need to protect as much life as possible.

displace the israelis that support what is going on there instead

Devil_May_Cry posted...

Am I a terrible person for wanting the Palestinians to move into the USA. It is clear there can never be a two state solution as long as Hamas is there.

We need to protect as much life as possible.

It is kinda suspicious that NONE of the neighbouring Muslim countries want to help.

Northern Palestine could become a Jordan province and Western Palestine could become an Egyptian province and Israel wouldn't be able to do anything about it

Jen0125 posted...

displace the israelis that support what is going on there instead

Look I am not saying Israel is perfect but they are a lot more concerned about collateral damage than many western nations such as my home country of the USA.

What is happening to the Israelis and Palestinians is unfair.

Lokarin posted...

It is kinda suspicious that NONE of the neighbouring Muslim countries want to help.

Northern Palestine could become a Jordan province and Western Palestine could become an Egyptian province and Israel wouldn't be able to do anything about it

Hell if I was in charge of the USA I would let the Palestinians come here. No idea why other Muslim countries don't welcome them.

Israel is such a small country and the only way to prevent stuff like this is to secure the state of Israel and move Palestinians to a place where Hamas can't use them as shields. I am not Jewish but I have watched the Israeli arguments about Hamas and they make sense. They drop leaflets to get people to evacuate but Hamas probably forces civilians to remain in targeted areas to further their propaganda campaign.

In WW2 Dresden, Tokyo, and Italian cities were bombed and civilians died. Civilian loss is always tragic but necessary to fight a greater evil.

Devil_May_Cry posted...

Look I am not saying Israel is perfect but they are a lot more concerned about collateral damage than many western nations such as my home country of the USA.

What is happening to the Israelis and Palestinians is unfair.

Hell if I was in charge of the USA I would let the Palestinians come here. No idea why other Muslim countries don't welcome them.

Israel is such a small country and the only way to prevent stuff like this is to secure the state of Israel and move Palestinians to a place where Hamas can't use them as shields. I am not Jewish but I have watched the Israeli arguments about Hamas and they make sense. They drop leaflets to get people to evacuate but Hamas probably forces civilians to remain in targeted areas to further their propaganda campaign.

In WW2 Dresden, Tokyo, and Italian cities were bombed and civilians died. Civilian loss is always tragic but necessary to fight a greater evil.

Might want to brush up on WWII history and ascertain if dropping 2 atomic bombs was necessary for Japan to surrender.

https://youtu.be/RCRTgtpC-Go?si=9sgWqGtaiMRtstq2

Also worth brushing up on Dresden. The high civilian casualty count was popuralized by Slaughterhouse Five, aka fiction.

Devil_May_Cry posted...

Look I am not saying Israel is perfect but they are a lot more concerned about collateral damage

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/31/jabalya-refugee-camp-deaths-strikes-israel/

oh yeah, real concerned

Devil_May_Cry posted...

Look I am not saying Israel is perfect but they are a lot more concerned about collateral damage than many western nations such as my home country of the USA.

What is happening to the Israelis and Palestinians is unfair.

Hell if I was in charge of the USA I would let the Palestinians come here. No idea why other Muslim countries don't welcome them.

Israel is such a small country and the only way to prevent stuff like this is to secure the state of Israel and move Palestinians to a place where Hamas can't use them as shields. I am not Jewish but I have watched the Israeli arguments about Hamas and they make sense. They drop leaflets to get people to evacuate but Hamas probably forces civilians to remain in targeted areas to further their propaganda campaign.

In WW2 Dresden, Tokyo, and Italian cities were bombed and civilians died. Civilian loss is always tragic but necessary to fight a greater evil.

More to note. There has already been a dispora of Palestinians, nearly a million in 1948 when they were forcefully displaced. This was through no fault of their own, and was a direct result of not their own violence, but violence brought upon them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_diaspora

Which 'other Muslim countries' don't accept them? Some do, some don't. Jordan is a Muslim country. Syria too. Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Egypt also have large Palestinian populations. Most of them accept Palestinians. There are large refugee camps in all these countries. It's a bit of a common misnomer to state that Muslim countries don't accept Muslim refugees. They also generally support the right of Palestine to exist, so they don't necessarily want to be complicit in shipping them all off their land.

Why can't it be Palestinian territory that is 'secured'? They had a secure homeland until Britain decided to plop a new state there. I still support Jewish right to live there - if you look at history, it's pretty split between Muslim and Jewish rule. Still, it's odd that you suggest that "Israeli" territory needs securing when it has been Palestinian territory that has been constantly eroded since Israel's inception. Hell, the West Bank is filled with neighborhoods where Palestinians were forcefully moved and then Israelis set up in those neighborhoods.

I also keep hearing extensive usage of the 'human shields' claim as it has existed for decades now. What are the present examples in the current conflict? It's like when Israel says there's a Hamas base under a refugee camp. Is there? Can you show me how you ascertained this? Was it not discovered through technical means that could be demonstrated? Was the civilian population notified? Were the best military tactics used to accomplish the intended goal? We are never given this data when other countries provide it readily.

You say that Hamas 'probably forces civilians to remain in targeted areas'. We can't rest claims on 'probably'.

Devil_May_Cry posted...

Civilian loss is always tragic but necessary to fight a greater evil.

Even before this most recent escalation, Palestinian civilian casualties outnumbered Israeli ones 20 to 1, and it's very likely that that ratio has only grown with the massive scale of Israel's retaliation. Can you really claim that whatever evil is being fought is so much greater that it is in fact necessary to kill that many civilians? Or is the person murdering the most civilians actually the greater evil?

https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1719745919011213714

I will be the first to admit that this is probably an extremely biased source, but there's video footage of the same thing happening from different angles on twitter, and I first saw this hours ago and there's no notes/it's still up. Which means not very much on elon's twitter but...

It falls in line with their recent hard crackdown on protests during wartime though. There's some other videos that are less straightforward as to whats going on but what you can make out just visually just looks... really bad

Yeah, that video blew me away. Fucking coward moves from Mr. Big Cop there.

Don't you understand, those Jewish Nazis had to be punished!

/s

You all simplify and react just like Hamas wants. I stand by Israel even though I might get banned and its not the cool thing to do.

"Palestine" has rejected a 2 state solution at every turn. Israel has agreed to it since before Israel existed, accepting the UN proposal in 1947 and others since.

Callmege posted...

"Palestine" has rejected a 2 state solution at every turn. Israel has agreed to it since before Israel existed, accepting the UN proposal in 1947 and others since.

They just want Jews to live in diaspora and be accused of things and eternally persecuted.

Antisemitism is a sickness

Devil_May_Cry posted...

You all simplify and react just like Hamas wants.

By all means, please share the nuance that justifies Israel inflicting civilian casualties that outnumber those inflicted by Hamas by more than an order of magnitude, if you feel this is a "simplification." Moreover, "we all" also condemn Hamas for blowing up civilians. Blowing up civilians is bad, regardless of who's doing it.

Callmege posted...

"Palestine" has rejected a 2 state solution at every turn.

You mean people don't like having a new country plopped on top of theirs with no regard for how they've been living their lives for centuries? Who knew?

Callmege posted...

Israel has agreed to it since before Israel existed,

You mean people do like being given a free country? Who knew?

Whatever agreements they've made on paper, suggesting that Israel has "agreed" to a two-state solution misses most of the reality of the situation. They've "agreed" to let Palestine exist (though there are ample quotes from high-ranking Israeli officials that treat that as a considerable concession, many of which indicate a desire to simply wipe out all Palestinians), but do so through an oppressive apartheid government that treats Palestinians as second-class citizens and continuously erodes their rights, available land, services, and quality of life, all of which is before considering the number of Palestinians they've outright murdered and the laundry list of human rights violations that have been documented (which I expect is a tiny fraction of the actual number, given the kiddie gloves the West routinely uses in dealing with Israel). Israel has not agreed to let Palestine exist freely. Suggesting they have is either a deliberate lie or suggests that you've failed to put even the barest modicum of thought into understanding the situation and just latched on to the first piece of information you saw that lined up with your preconceived bias of "Jews>Arabs." Neither's a good look.

Devil_May_Cry posted...

They just want Jews to live in diaspora and be accused of things and eternally persecuted.

Antisemitism is a sickness

It's not antisemitism to want Israel to stop committing genocide. There's a significant number of Jewish civilians even within Israel that have nothing to do with this, let alone the Jews elsewhere in the world which there is absolutely zero justification for blaming. Those responding to this war with broader antisemitism are no better than those that responded to 9/11 by harassing random brown people (which is to say, they're shit), but just as it's not Islamophobic to have an issue with Saudi Arabia's government funding Al'Qaeda, it's not antisemitic to have an issue with Israel blowing up Palestinian schools, hospitals, and water treatment plants.

Devil_May_Cry posted...

its not the cool thing to do.

When stuff like this is happening it's understandable that unconditionally supporting the IDF/Iraeli government is considered "not the cool thing to do".

Analysis finds and verifies 3 instances in which Palestinians are being told to evacuate to some areas only for those areas and/or areas nearby to get bombed/striked later.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703

Dont destroy Gaza: Families of Israelis killed or taken hostage by Hamas make emotional pleas for peace
https://news.yahoo.com/don-t-destroy-gaza-families-134537012.html

Evidence of Israels unlawful use of white phosphorus in southern Lebanon
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/lebanon-evidence-of-israels-unlawful-u
se-of-white-phosphorus-in-southern-lebanon-as-cross-border-hostilities-escalate/

Zionist forces brutally assault Orthodox Jews in the streets of Jerusalem for opposing genocide in Gaza.
https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1719752311684071469

Videos and pictures arise of IDF soldiers abusing/humiliating Palestinians in West Bank.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-soldiers-film-themselves-abusing-humiliating-west-bank-palestinians/

Verified number of Palestinian civilians killed/wounded in 25 days, compared to Ukrainian civilians in 563 days.
https://i.imgur.com/RFZgdZs.jpg

Obligatory 'Hamas bad' disclaimer, because apparently that is needed.

Devil_May_Cry posted...

They just want Jews to live in diaspora and be accused of things and eternally persecuted.

Antisemitism is a sickness

I guess it's only okay when Zionists do it to others. You believe that Palestinians deserve to live in diaspora and that's okay?

Jen0125 posted...

You believe that Palestinians deserve to live in diaspora and that's okay?

Don't you know, Jen? That's not really diaspora because they can just go live with all the other brown people. Everyone knows brown people aren't ethnically distinct from each other, so it doesn't count.

/s, because there are enough people who actually feel this way that I need to clarify

Devil_May_Cry posted...

You all simplify and react just like Hamas wants. I stand by Israel even though I might get banned and its not the cool thing to do.

You're the one that just simplified all of our discussion into one sentence.

Apparently explicitly identifying it as sarcastic mockery of racist dinglemuffins isn't enough for the mod team to leave my last post up, so let's try this again:

Jen0125 posted...

You believe that Palestinians deserve to live in diaspora and that's okay?

Perhaps this individual doesn't recognize that there are ethnic differences between different populations of Arabic people and therefore doesn't believe it would count as diaspora to make one Arabic population go live with a bunch of other Arabic populations. That would, of course, be racist and stupid, but there are many stupid racists in the world.

Clear enough?

have you guys seen the whole Amy Schumer drama lol

DirtBasedSoap posted...

have you guys seen the whole Amy Schumer drama lol

Yes. She is in a frenzy rn.

Jen0125 posted...

Yes. She is in a frenzy rn.

making the whole thing about herself is the funniest thing shes ever done

I guess she didn't disappear forever like I suspected

i was born wealthy and i worked hard to stay that way!!!

DirtBasedSoap posted...

i was born wealthy and i worked hard to stay that way!!!

She's literally using "only Jewish children matter" rhetoric and then calling people antisemitic when they say, "I'm sorry what now?"

adjl posted...

#130

Ah so the "Palestinians" who are really just colonisers from the Ottoman Empire are entitled to a state but the Jews who can trace their roots there back over 3500 years aren't. Hmmm. I wonder why you think the Jews shouldn't have a state of their own. Tough one that.

Also, gotta say you should drop the whole "genocide" lie. Genociders don't tell their victims where to evacuate from and where they will be safer when the genocider conducts military operations. Also a population that has grown consistently for decades, as the "Palestinian" population has, isn't one that's being genocided. Do better with your propaganda.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/07b50b73.jpg

Callmege posted...

Ah so the "Palestinians" who are really just colonisers from the Ottoman Empire are entitled to a state but the Jews who can trace their roots there back over 3500 years aren't. Hmmm. I wonder why you think the Jews shouldn't have a state of their own. Tough one that.

Also, gotta say you should drop the whole "genocide" lie. Genociders don't tell their victims where to evacuate from and where they will be safer when the genocider conducts military operations. Also a population that has grown consistently for decades, as the "Palestinian" population has, isn't one that's being genocided. Do better with your propaganda.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/07b50b73.jpg

They both deserve homelands in the region. The 1947 map (plus the Negev region) was an amicable deal

I like how we're referring to the ottoman empire to justify current events

Lokarin posted...

They both deserve homelands in the region. The 1947 map (plus the Negev region) was an amicable deal

They should have accepted it in 1947 then. They didn't. They chose to set the borders with a (genocidal) war. They got what they wanted in that respect but not the victor they expected. Too late to take the 1947 deal now because BREAKING NEWS: it's not 1947 anymore.

Don't start wars and you won't lose territory. Ask Germany.

Callmege posted...

They should have accepted it in 1947 then. They didn't. They chose to set the borders with a (genocidal) war. They got what they wanted in that respect but not the victor they expected. Too late to take the 1947 deal now because BREAKING NEWS: it's not 1947 anymore.

Don't start wars and you won't lose territory. Ask Germany.

they were mad and angry in the 40s since the UN betrayed them and the wars caused them to lose the north and negev regions. That doesn't justify a modern CURRENT genocide against them

Lokarin posted...

they were mad and angry in the 40s since the UN betrayed them and the wars caused them to lose the north and negev regions. That doesn't justify a modern CURRENT genocide against them

Seriously stop with the genocide lie lolhttps://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/07b50b73.jpg

This is what a population looks like when it's being genocided. Notice that sudden drop of over 6 million that begins in 1939? That's the "destruction of a population in part" required for it to be genocide. Fighting and killing terrorists that keep doing terrorism to you isn't genocide. It's self defense.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/5/51c2cc4e.jpg

Callmege posted...

This is what a population looks like when it's being genocided. Notice that sudden drop of over 6 million that begins in 1939? That's the "destruction of a population in part" required for it to be genocide. Fighting and killing terrorists that keep doing terrorism to you isn't genocide. It's self defense.

First of all, there are tiers of genocide - extermination is stage 9 genocide, 1 away from total extinction. Stage 7 (preparation) and Stage 8 (persecution) were clearly crossed

Secondly, Israel already has their pound of flesh for the HAMAS attack... they don't get a free pass on committing futher war crimes

Callmege posted...

Seriously stop with the genocide lie lolhttps://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/07b50b73.jpg

This graph stops at 2020. What year are we currently in?

Callmege posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/5/51c2cc4e.jpg

Note that not only does this graph show the precipitous loss that occurred throughout WWII, but it also shows population growth prior to the war. Similar to that first graph you keep posting...

Wonder what a graph would look like if this war stretches on for 6 years and no one attempts to push back against Israel annihilating all of Gaza?

https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-gaza-hamas-civilian-casualties-children-deaths-airstrikes-palestinian-2023-10?op=1

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/009404ff.jpg

Note that the current Israel-Palestine conflict is less than a month old, while the war in Ukraine has been going on for 20 months.