Board 8 > Most Evil Fictional Character: Frieza vs. Pennywise

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Welcome to the 2023 edition of Most Evil Fictional Character, a single-elimination tournament to determine the most evil fictional character of all time!

Here's the bracket:

https://www.bracketmaker.com/tmenu.cfm?tid=477621&tclass=

And here's the discussion topic:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/80568652

And here are the rules:

-First and foremost, YOU MUST BOLD YOUR VOTE FOR IT TO COUNT. The reason for this is that these topics encourage a lot of discussion and debate, and it helps me to distinguish a vote from simple discussion if all votes are bolded. So, I state again, ALL VOTES MUST BE BOLDED FOR THEM TO COUNT. I reserve the right to be lenient in early topics if people just aren't getting it, but for the most part, IF YOUR VOTE ISN'T BOLDED, IT WON'T COUNT.

-You must vote for which of the two characters you honestly believe to be the more evil of the two. You can determine this via any method you like, use your own morals and judgement, read all the arguments made to determine your choice, or however you choose to make your pick, but you must only vote for the one you truly believe is the most evil. This isn't a death battle, or a popularity contest. You're voting ONLY for the most evil character out of the two choices presented.

-While on that subject, remember that because this isn't a death battle or a fighting tournament, do your absolute best to consider the two characters as if their power levels were equal (either the weaker character brought up to the level of the strongest, or vice versa, or both if you want to consider both possibilities). Therefore, just because, for example, one of the characters blew up a planet and the other one merely kicked a puppy, doesn't necessarily mean the planet killer is more evil than the puppy kicker. Consider the characters as if they have the exact same capabilities and what they might do in that scenario.

-You can make any arguments, debates, etc. you want in this topic. Discussion is STRONGLY encouraged, a fun debate about which of the two characters is most evil is exactly what these topics are for. Just don't make it personal, no insults or flaming, keep things civil even if you disagree. Also, no vote rallying, if you want to encourage people to vote for your character you need to at least make some semblance of an argument as to why, even if it's just "Character X did (really dastardly thing), I can't believe no one's voting for them!"

-Voting will continue for exactly 24 hours after the post is made. If there's a tie, there will be a new 24 hour topic. This will continue indefinitely until a winner is determined.

-YOU MUST BOLD YOUR VOTE FOR IT TO COUNT.

-

The following write-ups will contain untagged SPOILERS for Dragonball Z/Super and It.

FRIEZA

Frieza is a major antagonist in the Dragonball anime and manga.

After inheriting Cold's imperialist army and rising to power as the emperor of Universe 7 at a young age, Frieza quickly established himself as a ruthless tyrant, feared across the universe for his unparalleled cruelty and power. After one of the races he subjugated, the Saiyans, attempted to revolt against him, the tyrant retaliated by laughing maniacally with delight as he prepared a Supernova to annihilate their home planet of Vegeta. The attack consumed Bardock and some of his men as it buried itself deep beneath the planet's surface resulting in a massive explosion, eradicating nearly every Saiyan. Frieza tends to handle most situations with a systematic approach. He commonly utilizes dark humor, making twisted jokes and tasteless mockery of his foes before killing them. Frieza is fully aware of his reputation for brutality and makes no effort to deny it, but instead revels in it as evidenced by his introduction to the Namekians. Likewise, he has shown great anger at the idea of his cruel deeds being undone, such as the revival of all his previous victims from the Dragon Balls. Frieza can be best summed up as an intelligent, composed (for the most part), yet extraordinarily sadistic and completely heartless sociopath. He has absolutely no qualms with slaughtering his own forces, no matter how loyal to him, simply for being in his way, as seen from when he destroyed Planet Vegeta despite most of his men being within the trajectory, as well as his reason in the Japanese version for executing a soldier before deciding to personally deal with Future Trunks. In addition, when executing Tagoma by shooting him out into space, he also made no attempt at activating the secondary window to save his forces from being sucked into the vacuum of space. He also reacts violently to criticism or if his plans either fail or if his pride is abashed. At his core, Frieza relishes glory, power, agony, dominance, control, and destruction, as shown in his enjoyment of making his enemies suffer before he kills them. He is one of the most sadistic and megalomaniacal beings in the known universes, without any sympathetic or redeeming traits. When Kikono states that the Frieza Force are criminals, Frieza retorts by saying that they merely overtake planets to sell them to those who need a new planet, viewing the interactions as transactional and demonstrating how he makes excuses for his malicious crimes and feels no responsibility for his actions.

vs.

PENNYWISE

Pennywise the Dancing Clown is the primary antagonist of Stephen King's novel IT.

Pennywise is an ancient, trans-dimensional evil entity who preys upon the children (and sometimes adults) of Derry, Maine, roughly every 27 years, using a variety of powers that include the ability to shapeshift, manipulate reality, and go unnoticed by adults. It is a predator of humans, and prefers children to adults. Most importantly, It desires to consume those it has made terrified of itself. The creature implies that this enhances the flavor. It's preference for children prey may be due to how they taste, but also may be due to the fact that children are easier to scare. It's only goals are to eat and sleep. It will hunt and kill for a year, before entering a 27-year dormancy. It manipulates the awareness and attention of the People in Derry, both to mask its activities and isolate its victims. This enforced apathy and lack of awareness also masks the anomalous murder spikes during its active phase. It manipulates its prey and the town through both mundane and psychic means. In the most grand sense, It uses its power to maintain the prosperity of Derry despite the gruesome murders that regularly occur there, thus securing its food supply. It will manipulate its prey by promising them what they want, but can also determine their psychological fears and utilize them to provoke or cow those it faces. In the guise of Pennywise, it can be disarming, charming and seemingly nice to the kids it hunts, usually to lure them into secluded spots before attacking. It can manipulate weak-willed people, making them indifferent to the horrific events that unfold, or even serve as accomplices. Throughout the novel It, some events are depicted from Pennywise's point of view, describing itself as a "superior" being, with the Turtle as an equal and humans as mere "toys". It's hibernation begins and ends with horrific events, like the mysterious disappearance of Derry Township's 300 settlers in 174043 or the town's later ironworks explosion. It awoke during a great storm that flooded part of the city in 1957, with Bill's younger brother Georgie the first in a line of killings before the Losers Club fight the monster.

frieza

both are really evil at their core so my tiebreaker was frieza killing billions by blowing up planets

The massacre of the saiyans is thrown into a different light in Super, where it's revealed that God of destruction Beerus is the one who told him to blow the planet up. Frieza still clearly enjoyed it though, so yeah frieza

I feel like Super really humanized Frieza to his detriment. Nothing humanizes Pennywise.

Pennywise does literally feed on fear. Its sustenance to it.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFRlEZA

Ultimately while Pennywise is plenty evil I just think Pennywise is really limited in what it can do conceptually. It is dormant 26/27 years and feeds on a more personal fear so at some point you would imagine it would become sated or it wouldn't serve a point to try and terrify more (Pennywise has a pretty small body count all things considered and I don't think that's storytelling as much as how it works)

Frieza ticks all the boxes for evil and has a crazy resume of destruction to back it up.

Pennywise

I think Frieza develops into a less evil character (but still pretty evil) while Pennywise remains the same evil throughout over billions of years, and nothing could change It.

This is a bit of my rehash of my argument yesterday, but it is hard for me to look at Pennywise the same way as he sort of occupies this realm of "beyond human morality" based on what he is. And I think redrocket brings up a good point here - yes he eats children and yes he does everything he can to terrify them, but that's his literal food source. If he doesn't eat, he withers away and dies. You can't get mad for a kid playing with their dinosaur chicken nuggets before they dip them in BBQ sauce to make them tastier, imo.

Frieza

Suprak_the_Stud posted...

This is a bit of my rehash of my argument yesterday, but it is hard for me to look at Pennywise the same way as he sort of occupies this realm of "beyond human morality" based on what he is. And I think redrocket brings up a good point here - yes he eats children and yes he does everything he can to terrify them, but that's his literal food source. If he doesn't eat, he withers away and dies. You can't get mad for a kid playing with their dinosaur chicken nuggets before they dip them in BBQ sauce to make them tastier, imo.

Pennywise slept for millions of years. I'm not sure it actually needs to eat. So this would be more like human children consuming live baby chicks who were capable of feelings and lived in chicken cities as the adult chickens were forced by the kids into not caring about the chicks going missing, then piling up their carcasses. And if children could sleep for many many years hibernating without eating, but doing it anyway.

It has been a long long time since I read the book, so someone may need to correct me here.

But Pennywise is a physical manifestation of the dead lights, right? When "It" was slumbering, It wasn't Pennywise. I'm also pretty sure that Pennywise sort of gained sentience and his personality after interacting with humanity. And I'm almost positive that Pennywise, in its current form, needs to eat. He has a hunger and needs to eat to satiate it. And it isn't like he has a choice of food, iirc. He can't go out and eat candy bars. Why does he do the things he does? Well, to maximize fear and make his food more tasty. It's his food source and the things he's doing are at least partially out of a necessity to survive.

Stephen King experts please clarify or correct as needed.

Pennywise

First of all, Pennywise is much more personally cruel, Frieza doesnt do anything as individually malicious as the way that Pennywise tortures those kids. Secondly, in terms of scale lets not forget that It is in reality an extra-dimensional being in fundamental opposition to the cosmic forces of good, so Its definitely much higher-scale than he appears. Effectively like a Satan-figure in some ways. On the feeding, It doesnt actually need to eat fear, It can just eat people, It chooses to inflict fear and target kids because it tastes better. Lastly, Frieza softens considerably after his initial arc and by the end of Super is working with Goku.

Dancedreamer posted...

Pennywise slept for millions of years. I'm not sure it actually needs to eat. So this would be more like human children consuming live baby chicks who were capable of feelings and lived in chicken cities as the adult chickens were forced by the kids into not caring about the chicks going missing, then piling up their carcasses. And if children could sleep for many many years hibernating without eating, but doing it anyway.

To be clear I agree with this analogy I just don't think it's more evil than Frieza to dip a few live baby chicks into barbecue sauce once every 27 years

You're basically shaming Pennywise for not being an eldritch vegan here. He can't just suffer through bland, flavorless meals over the course of a millennium. Poor guy just wants to snack and sleep.

Pennywise

current Frieza is a gag character who wants the dragon balls to become taller

I feel I accidentally addressed Supraks points before even reading them, but yeah Pennywise doesnt need to eat children and fear, it just wants to. Also Stephen Kings cosmology is based on deontological morality and very clear good and evil cosmic forces with It definitely on the evil side. So its definitely within our moral understanding despite also happening to be a cosmic being.

If Frieza hadn't softened, I might be more inclined to vote for him here. But I think Pennywise has a level of sadism that gets over any blue and orange morality hurdle for me.

Like IT doesn't just scare its victims and eat them. It bullies them.

I'm not a King expert by any means, but didnt IT also effectively poison Derry and create the shitty, miserable and abusive culture that tormented all the kids before Pennywise even started feeding? That feels like it's worth considering, if Pennywise spreads evil just by existing even when he's not active.

Holding my vote until someone more tuned in can address that point, but leaning Pennywise because as others have noted, Frieza has lost a lot of his edge with Super factored in.

Just popping in real quick again to say everyone is pretty spot on about Pennywise so far.

Xiahou_Shake posted...

I'm not a King expert by any means, but didnt IT also effectively poison Derry and create the shitty, miserable and abusive culture that tormented all the kids before Pennywise even started feeding? That feels like it's worth considering, if Pennywise spreads evil just by existing even when he's not active.

Holding my vote until someone more tuned in can address that point, but leaning Pennywise because as others have noted, Frieza has lost a lot of his edge with Super factored in.

Yes thats absolutely right. Even when Pennywise is sleeping Derry is noted as a very violent place where adults are abusive, murderous, or at best turning a blind eye. Thats a big part of what makes It scary at all. So yeah there is definitely that angle of it as well.

Yes thats absolutely right. Even when Pennywise is sleeping Derry is noted as a very violent place where adults are abusive, murderous, or at best turning a blind eye. Thats a big part of what makes It scary at all. So yeah there is definitely that angle of it as well.

That's all part of his feeding though. Creating an environment of fear so his food tastes good.

I did a Google search and everything I'm finding is that Pennywise needs to eat to survive. It isn't a choice for him to eat. He's not doing this every 27 years because he's bored. He will grow weak if he doesn't eat. He scares and eats kids because they taste good and its easy. They're basically the fast food option of the eldritch abomination world.

Yeah its just for taste, ie for fun. Pennywise can eat anything and survived for millions of years before humans. I would say that is more evil not less!

I know everyone has different definitions of evil (which is part of the fun of the contest), but to me if someone commits an evil act, knows that its evil, and doesn't care, that is more evil than someone committing that same evil act and not being able to understand that its evil. That's sort of what I mean by things like Pennywise and It being beyond conventional assessments of morality at times.

If you were able to get Pennywise to admit the absolute truth, like you had Wonder Woman's magic lasso, and you asked him if what he was doing was wrong, I think the response would be "of course not - I need to eat and these things are beneath me." Same sort of justification as we might use to eat beef. "You know how badly they treat cows right? You could live just on this meat substitute and leafy greens and these supplements." And the way we justify it to ourselves is sort of "well, yeah, but those are just cows."

To Pennywise, we're the cows. I don't think a trans-dimensional being, a basic eldritch monstrosity has the ability to understand that we're anything other than a source of food.

Taste is more than just fun, imo. Fun would be killing and not eating. He's allowed to do what he can to enjoy his food!

Suprak_the_Stud posted...

I know everyone has different definitions of evil (which is part of the fun of the contest), but to me if someone commits an evil act, knows that its evil, and doesn't care, that is more evil than someone committing that same evil act and not being able to understand that its evil. That's sort of what I mean by things like Pennywise and It being beyond conventional assessments of morality at times.

If you were able to get Pennywise to admit the absolute truth, like you had Wonder Woman's magic lasso, and you asked him if what he was doing was wrong, I think the response would be "of course not - I need to eat and these things are beneath me." Same sort of justification as we might use to eat beef. "You know how badly they treat cows right? You could live just on this meat substitute and leafy greens and these supplements." And the way we justify it to ourselves is sort of "well, yeah, but those are just cows."

To Pennywise, we're the cows. I don't think a trans-dimensional being, a basic eldritch monstrosity has the ability to understand that we're anything other than a source of food.

I disagree with this a lot.

First, I think you don't see what you're doing is wrong to be 'more evil'. If John goes along raping kids, and thinks there's nothing wrong with it, he's not suddenly less evil.

Second, Pennywise doesn't need to feed. He existed before humans did. Millions of years before. Nothing suggests that he would die if he didn't feed on humans. In fact, the opposite is suggested. If tomorrow a sentient species were discovered, and they were delicious would you eat them? Let's assume for a moment they're capable of communicating with us. I really don't think we're the cows to pennywise.

It also definitely understands that we're more than a source of food. After all: It doesn't feed on adults. It only feeds on children. It even taunts Bill over the death of georgie, and taunts him with the idea georgie is still alive. I don't think we do that with chickens, last I checked. Though we do terrible things to chickens, such as keeping them in cages.

Yeah I'm also pretty firmly against the idea that not considering or "understanding" that something is evil makes whatever someone is doing less evil. I might even argue it makes them moreso, insofar as evil is something truly reprehensible. Tales of Zestiria uses that logic and that's why it has terribly written stuff like "pure of heart" serial killers.

Anywho, this has been a fun one to consider but I'm pretty comfortable in voting Pennywise now.

pennywise

agree wholeheartedly with his defenders here, and i probably would have stepped in myself. frieza is god awful too of course, but there's a chance for some form of redemption? i guess? idk if you could ever be redeemed from killing billions, probably not, but he could possibly reach a point where he'd stop being ok with that. i don't believe it would ever stop being ok with using a township as his personal livestock pen to torture as he please tbqh

Well hes eating for survival, not sexually violating for pleasure. Hes also not John - hes a eldritch monster separate from the species hes consuming. Im also talking about being above the realm of comprehending inherent humanity, not justifying your actions to yourself. We eat cows, not people even though cows are alive and cows feel pain. We do this because, hey, thats the food chain. We kept veal, we eat eggs, some cultures eat balut etc.

And again Im not a Stephen King expert and havent read It since high school. But every Google search Im doing shows he needs to eat. He might not have eaten before his awakening, but his exact mythology is different before and after that point.

He does sometimes eat adults, but kids are easier to scare so its less work to get the food he needs.

I could be wrong but I'd need some sort of source that Pennywise after his awakening can exist unaffected if he just goes on a hunger strike.

Snake5s - youre the resident expert on all things horror - help!

I mean it's hard because I know you're arguing AGAINST Pennywise and I think everything mentioned so far is exactly what makes it the more evil character here.

Haha Im not asking you to agree! Im just asking whats the mythology if you know it. Does Pennywise, after his awakening from the dormant state he existed in for thousands of years, need to eat? Is consumption a need for him or is it entirely superfluous to his existence? I honestly dont remember for sure but Google says it is a need.

skulltrumpets posted...

pennywise

agree wholeheartedly with his defenders here, and i probably would have stepped in myself. frieza is god awful too of course, but there's a chance for some form of redemption? i guess? idk if you could ever be redeemed from killing billions, probably not, but he could possibly reach a point where he'd stop being ok with that. i don't believe it would ever stop being ok with using a township as his personal livestock pen to torture as he please tbqh

Yeah, I dont really care if Frieza feels bad about it after. Sowwy for all the genocide means nothing, and if anything makes it worse. He isnt some sort of weird ethereal monster separate from things hes killing. Hes capable of understanding the magnitude of his crimes, knowing its wrong, but doing it anyway.

(I also havent read anything DBZ related since middle school but if they really tried to give Frieza a redemption arc, thats hilarious.)

Its also not most evil acts - its most evil character.

Does Pennywise, in Friezas position, murder billions? No. I mean he probably had Friezas power level and is happy eating a handful of kids every 27 years.

Anyway Ill stop here. This one is a fun consideration though so thanks for the discussion regardless. Unless theres proof Pennywise doesnt need to eat after hes awakened, Im leaving my vote. Id probably leave it anyway tbqh just for the scope of what Frieza did for so long.

Yes, IT does need to consume fear to survive. IT actively seeks to induce fear in children to feed on.

Suprak_the_Stud posted...

Does Pennywise, in Friezas position, murder billions? No. I mean he probably had Friezas power level and is happy eating a handful of kids every 27 years

Yeah

This is basically why I don't think Pennywise is very high tier here

I agree with this completely. He's evil but I don't see him ever needing nor wanting to escalate beyond traumatizing and then eating a handful of children every 27 years. Which is like, yeah, it sucks but I think something willing to keep things on the down low like that isn't competing with the higher tier entrants here.

As has been discussed, both of them have some pretty big drawbacks for different reasons. Pennywise due to it being more of a food/sustenance thing and being relatively reserved as he just sticks to one town and hibernates for decades after a quick burst rather than being a constant menace. Frieza in that he was kind of amicable at least and softened up a good deal once Super happened with factors like the Beerus thing also entering the mix.

Its a pretty tough call, but I am leaning slightly toward Pennywise right now because as mentioned, he is a fair bit more personal with his bullshit. That and while it is presumably a food thing, he does seem to still take at least some enjoyment in his process of "seasoning" them. The Super stuff kinda screws Frieza a bit here.

LightningStrikes posted...

Pennywise

First of all, Pennywise is much more personally cruel, Frieza doesnt do anything as individually malicious as the way that Pennywise tortures those kids. Secondly, in terms of scale lets not forget that It is in reality an extra-dimensional being in fundamental opposition to the cosmic forces of good, so Its definitely much higher-scale than he appears. Effectively like a Satan-figure in some ways. On the feeding, It doesnt actually need to eat fear, It can just eat people, It chooses to inflict fear and target kids because it tastes better. Lastly, Frieza softens considerably after his initial arc and by the end of Super is working with Goku.

He's working with goku because he doesn't want to die. He even low-key tries to overthrow the top god during the tournament that god is hosting before getting preoccupied with just staying in the ring, it's more of a "I'll help you so that I can rule later" mindset. He even says himself he's not going to stop his ways just because he helped save the universe and whis bringing him back to life. And in the manga, he hasn't.

For me the kicker is swapping positions. I'm not sure if Pennywise does worse in the Frieza slot - does he spread his influence globally, universally even? He's a cosmic entity, but does he stop himself? Does he have a limit? It sounds like he does. Frieza in the Pennywise slot would be an even pickier eater than Pennywise. Whether that's good or bad, I don't know.

Leaning Frieza but this was a fun topic to read.

Emeraldegg posted...

He's working with goku because he doesn't want to die. He even low-key tries to overthrow the top god during the tournament that god is hosting before getting preoccupied with just staying in the ring, it's more of a "I'll help you so that I can rule later" mindset. He even says himself he's not going to stop his ways just because he helped save the universe and whis bringing him back to life. And in the manga, he hasn't.

This is the final straw for me.

Frieza