Current Events > Since it's Politic season, anybody here still upset about the DNC...

(+) Yeah! (+)

moderates in 2020 all dropping out before SC?

It was just superdelagates with extra steps.

Yea. They all suddenly caved

I'm not mad about everyone dropping out.

I'm mad about them and half the Dem. party leaders all specifically endorsing Biden at the same time, despite him still being in 2nd place when they did so. Talk about trying to drown out your own party's voters.

If they hadn't all rallied behind Biden at a point where he didn't deserve the honor then their supporters would've split between him, Bloomberg, Warren, and Bernie. The race would've remained competitive.

Thats why you have to support Trump. You have to show them.

Bernie had every advantage going into the 2020 primary and the best strategy he could come up with was "let's bank on the field being split several ways until the convention"

I'm mad he wasn't a better candidate

Doom_Art posted...

Bernie had every advantage going into the 2020 primary and the best strategy he could come up with was "let's bank on the field being split several ways until the convention"

I'm mad he wasn't a better candidate

Yeah Bernie's 2020 campaign was so much worse than his 2016 one for some reason.

Proto_Spark posted...

Yeah Bernie's 2020 campaign was so much worse than his 2016 one for some reason.

The thing that gets me is the issues that held him back in 2016 and the solutions to them were obvious.

• Develop better relationships with party members
• Develop better outreach to black and Hispanic voters
• Prove you can legislate and govern

He didn't do any of those things. Fucking guy wouldn't even run as a Democrat in 2018 after pledging to and he wonders why the party's voters don't particularly like him.

Doom_Art posted...

The thing that gets me is the issues that held him back in 2016 and the solutions to them were obvious.

* Develop better relationships with party members
* Develop better outreach to black and Hispanic voters
* Prove you can legislate and govern

He didn't do any of those things. Fucking guy wouldn't even run as a Democrat in 2018 after pledging to and he wonders why the party's voters don't particularly like him.

This shit here is why I don't like Sanders. Bro wants to be all progressive and shit and he's had literal decades of making inroads towards a progressive Democratic party and what does he do? Be Independent until it suits him to use the Dem party apparatus to run for president. Like, no shit the party isn't just going to welcome you with open arms.

Unknown5uspect posted...

This shit here is why I don't like Sanders. Bro wants to be all progressive and shit and he's had literal decades of making inroads towards a progressive Democratic party and what does he do? Be Independent until it suits him to use the Dem party apparatus to run for president. Like, no shit the party isn't just going to welcome you with open arms.

I remember in 2016 not just progressive Dems like Barney Frank but also progressive independents like Ralph Nader dumping on Bernie for this exact reason.

He's been in Congress since the early 90s and had nothing to show for it

He's a man who prefers to talk about the problems he cares about as opposed to actually getting his hands dirty and fixing them.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

The fact that he doubled down on the socialism branding was so stupid and such bad politics.

Because he's not really a socialist. He's a social democrat.

"I am a social demcorat in the vein of FDR, one of the greatest men to have ever held the presidency" how hard is that?

Doom_Art posted...

Bernie had every advantage going into the 2020 primary and the best strategy he could come up with was "let's bank on the field being split several ways until the convention"

I'm mad he wasn't a better candidate

What?

Going into the 2020 primary Bernie:

- Consistently polled behind Biden, and sometimes also behind Warren.
- Had less name recognition than Biden.
- Had far less endorsements than Biden the whole time.
- Was a mere Senator up against a former Vice President.
- Was only 2nd place in day 1 donations, behind O'Rourke.
- Couldn't campaign in Iowa because Dems held Trump's impeachment trials at an inconvenient time, leading to Buttigieg winning the state.

He didn't start the race ahead in in any metric whatsoever. Even without considering anything he did wrong he was still the underdog here and it was impressive he ever gained the lead at all.

Then go into how he had a divisive campaign against the prior nominee, who ended up losing the general (thus keeping the bad blood alive), and how he's a literal independent socialist with few Democratic allies and it's obvious why he got nowhere. There was no repairing those burned bridges. Come on now.

I'll never understand being mad at Biden forming a successful coaliton. You know... the thing that politicians are supposed to do.

Proto_Spark posted...

Yeah Bernie's 2020 campaign was so much worse than his 2016 one for some reason.

He wasn't running against Hillary. All there is to it.

Surprise, when the center united behind a single candidate that wasn't widely hated, he fizzled out.

Wow, what a fucking great time to bring this up, coming up to an election where primaries are irrelevant for Democrats. Definitely doesnt call to question the incentives of people bitching about this right now.

Really, are you guys trying to support Republicans or do you just want to make sure the rest of the country shares your bitterness? You guys seem to be doing a great job at both.

K181 posted...

I'll never understand being mad at Biden forming a successful coaliton. You know... the thing that politicians are supposed to do.

Because in this case Biden didn't really do anything special himself.

Hillary is an example of someone who built a coalition. She aggressively courted endorsements, convinced rivals not to run against her, heavily fundraised for allies, and established a symbiotic financial relationship with the Democratic apparatus (pulling the DNC out of poverty after it lost its donation flow to Obama individually in 2008 and suffered brutal midterms losses in 2010), and tailored her campaign tone and messaging on a per state basis. As a result she maintained a polling lead for the entirety of her primary and a delegate lead for 99% of it. I highly dislike her and I still have to recognize her strength as a primary candidate. Her problems came exclusively in the general.

Biden... Was just kinda floundering until the party coalesced around him. He somehow turned an initial polling lead into 4th, 5th, and 2nd place finishes in the first 3 states, which destroyed that polling lead. He had no idea what to do in certain states and just fled to SC where the demographics were favorable to him to court endorsements there specifically. By his own admission his campaign was going broke before Super Tuesday. By his own admission he didn't actually ask the other candidates to endorse him himself. It was donors who pressured them to drop out and Obama who spoke to them afterwards with encouragement to rally behind the last mainstream Dem. still running. It was also Obama who sent the signals out to the rest of the party that it was time to "accelerate the endgame". Again, by Biden's own admission he didn't expect the party to unite so early; he had no part in building this massive moderate Voltron himself, he was just the lucky beneficiary.

Basically you leave Hillary to her own devices and she still crushes you. You leave Biden to his own devices and he kinda gets spanked; he needs extensive support from independent actors to actually beat other Democrats (which he mainly got for his past work as VP, by default, instead of for anything he did during his campaign). I can't be mad at the former but the latter comes off as the party artificially propping up the candidate they like over the ones more effective at actual primary campaigning.

K181 posted...

Or mad that mainline Democrats aligned with the lifelong Democrat that was a former vice president rather than the independent.

Tbh I would've taken some other Democrat, someone at least slightly younger with less of a centrist record, but unfortunately the VP takes priority when you're just defaulting to the most established Democrat.

No. They won the Presidency in 2020 against Donald Trump. Why would I be mad?

Doom_Art posted...

Bernie had every advantage going into the 2020 primary and the best strategy he could come up with was "let's bank on the field being split several ways until the convention"

I'm mad he wasn't a better candidate

Yeah his team in 2020 was far worse than his team in 2016. He was inspiring in 2016, pretty meh in 2020.

the pandemic didn't help. bernie said that he could do more as a senator then he could running for office. He's right in a way, lets say he got all the way to the primary and lost. People could use that to say he was selfishly running for office instead of passing covid legislation.

I know that is a bit twisted but bernie is a guy that wants to help people and he did what he thought was right, even if we really do need someone like him as president.

Good faith topic for sure.

It's of note how nobody is actually articulating what specifically Bernie did worse in 2020 than 2016. >_>

Simple fact is something that's new and exciting 4 years ago can get stale 4 years later.

SecretBase posted...

It's of note how nobody is actually articulating what specifically Bernie did worse in 2020 than 2016. >_>

His media team was far shittier. In 2016 he had Anita Sanders, I think her name was. She had great outreach and focused on trying to court non-white support for Sanders. In 2020 he had Briana Joy Gray and all she did (at least from what I remember) was talk shit about the Dem establishment and those who support it. She just wanted to stir shit and cause drama, which she still does as that's just who she is, and that was either toxic for Sander's campaign or didn't make the impact they were hoping for.

Her name escapes me at the moment, however it felt similar to that black female progressive candidate in one of the midwest states who predictably lost her election because all she did was shit on the Dem party and those who have traditionally supported it.

There's definitely a way to provide constructive criticism on the Democratic Party that opens people up to progressive candidates when they've traditionally supported the establishment, being a shittalker and constantly insulting the party like how Republicans do to other Republican does not seem like an effective strategy for progressives trying to court traditionally Dem establishment voters.

If I'm not mistaken Ocasio-Cortez, in contrast, won her election by talking to people honestly about issues and what she'd do for them. Not constantly shittalking the dude whose job she ended up taking (and he certainly did not return the favor when he lost).

SecretBase posted...

It's of note how nobody is actually articulating what specifically Bernie did worse in 2020 than 2016. >_>

Simple fact is something that's new and exciting 4 years ago can get stale 4 years later.

He doesn't have to do anything wrong for another candidate to be preferable because their political positions are more realistically achievable as president and because the latter candidate is more realistically electable, given the same political positions.

But you're right, this was 4 years ago and there is absolutely no good faith reason for a Democrat to bring specific attention to this issue in 2024 when there is no primary to further cement any party divide.

Kradek posted...

His media team was far shittier. In 2016 he had Anita Sanders, I think her name was.

Good point. But it was hardly preventable. The people he hired were the best people he could hire. 2020's primary was a lot more active than 2016's, and thus there was stiffer competition for staff hires. Many progressives drifted to Warren and younger candidates. Symone Sanders switched to Biden's of all campaigns. He was basically left with aggressive progressive, dirtbag left types who were out of touch with the silent majority.

He can't just magically get unavailable talent to work with him. So while this is a metric where one could solidly claim he declined I'm not sure how personally at fault he was.

Kradek posted...

She had great outreach and focused on trying to court non-white support for Sanders.

According to his performance in the early states (and polling, though many don't count it) his 2020 base was slightly more diverse than his 2016 base. ( https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/31/us/politics/latest-democratic-polls.html ) Thing is the rise in minority support coincided with a drop in white support.

This created an issue for him. While he was able to win in 2020 a couple of states with large minority populations (Nevada and California) that he lost in 2016, he was never going to be able to win similar states after the party united behind Biden. While the white states Bernie had in 2016 are more prone to flipping off the Democratic party and voting for outsiders, allowing Bernie to keep winning states even after he lost Super Tuesday to Hillary. Minority states don't often do that, so after Bernie lost Super Tuesday to Biden he also lost basically every other state that votes too.

You can adjust your messaging to make inroads with minorities, but I'm not sure how to do so without also losing whites.

LoZguy709 posted...

He doesn't have to do anything wrong for another candidate to be preferable

Yes, that was my point in the quoted post. The political climate shifted to one where his brand was even less preferable than before. I don't actually see any road for Bernie to have put together a majority coalition in the 2020 particular primary. Even gaining a plurality lead at all was a miracle.

My post wasn't intended to question a "I don't like Bernie" stance but specifically a "Bernie fucked up" stance. I think his perfornance closely matched the tools available to him.

LoZguy709 posted...

because their political positions are more realistically achievable as president and because the latter candidate is more realistically electable, given the same political positions

Subjective, but I understand why some might make those assumptions.

SecretBase posted...

Yes, that was my point in the quoted post. The political climate shifted to one where his brand was even less preferable than before. I don't actually see any road for Bernie to have put together a majority coalition in the 2020 particular primary. Even gaining a plurality lead at all was a miracle.

My post wasn't intended to question a "I don't like Bernie" stance but specifically a "Bernie fucked up" stance. I think his perfornance closely matched the tools available to him.

Fair enough. I think people were warmer on the socialism association the second go-around, but any possible shifting there was outweighed by not wanting to underestimate the likelihood of a Trump presidency again. He definitely did better than I'd expect for someone embracing any association with socialism only 8 (or 12) years after it was used against Obama (now considered a corporatist-type time to time) and a big part of that was the charisma behind his campaigns.

Subjective, but I understand why some might make those assumptions.

I think it nominating him in 2020 was a risk Democratic primary voters very understandably didn't want to take.

LoZguy709 posted...

I think people were warmer on the socialism association the second go-around,

The whole Democratic socialism thing is an odd case. On one hand mainstream Dems became more tolerant of it as continued exposure established it as harmless, yet still weren't willing to take up that fight while the focus was on beating Trump. And on the other hand, a lot of the populist whites who were originally fine with it backed off after persistent propaganda from Trump, Venezuela's economy collapsing reaffirming it, and the very socially liberal young women of the Squad becoming a public face of the movement (it was never gonna last with these guys once the debate expanded beyond class issues).

Basically the only real gain over those 4 years was more young voters, but they don't vote lol. (at least not in primaries)

LoZguy709 posted...

but any possible shifting there was outweighed by not wanting to underestimate the likelihood of a Trump presidency again.

And also a lot of moderate voters who previously didn't vote were energized specifically to toss out Trump after 2016.

The 2018 midterms showed a smaller progressive awakening in blue states and a larger moderate awakening in purple states. Just looking at those numbers observant pundits could determine the moderate end would have the advantage in the 2020 primaries.

Bernie himself probably did, hence why he went for a plurality strategy; there was no way ever he was getting a majority with that electorate.

LoZguy709 posted...

I think it nominating him in 2020 was a risk Democratic primary voters very understandably didn't want to take.

Based on conventional wisdom it's understandable. Additionally Bernie constantly being at war with his own party was another liability to consider. Biden was considered safe in part because his party actually liked and supported him. Nobody's bothering with a revolution when they just want everyone united against Trump.

What's a superdelegate?

Honestly, not really. What Biden has accomplished with a slim majority has been absolutely astonishing. I've said countless times that Biden is the best President we could have gotten. I liked Bernie more, but what could Bernie have accomplished that Biden did not?

Yes we can complain about his handling of Israel, but that's just about it.

SecretBase posted...

The whole Democratic socialism thing is an odd case. On one hand mainstream Dems became more tolerant of it as continued exposure established it as harmless, yet still weren't willing to take up that fight while the focus was on beating Trump. And on the other hand, a lot of the populist whites who were originally fine with it backed off after persistent propaganda from Trump, Venezuela's economy collapsing reaffirming it, and the very socially liberal young women of the Squad becoming a public face of the movement (it was never gonna last with these guys once the debate expanded beyond class issues).

Basically the only real gain over those 4 years was more young voters, but they don't vote lol. (at least not in primaries)

Yeah I'm skeptical of outright socialism as someone who did a political science - economics bridge major, but there's more and more reason to oppose unregulated capitalism as negative externalities become undeniably apparent. But I'm pretty sure most people are still looking at which party is going to look out for their own economic interests.

And also a lot of moderate voters who previously didn't vote were energized specifically to toss out Trump after 2016.

The 2018 midterms showed a smaller progressive awakening in blue states and a larger moderate awakening in purple states. Just looking at those numbers observant pundits could determine the moderate end would have the advantage in the 2020 primaries.

Bernie himself probably did, hence why he went for a plurality strategy; there was no way ever he was getting a majority with that electorate.

With that kind of breakdown of the populace, it's impressive that two progressive candidates even held their ground so long.

Based on conventional wisdom it's understandable. Additionally Bernie constantly being at war with his own party was another liability to consider. Biden was considered safe in part because his party actually liked and supported him. Nobody's bothering with a revolution when they just want everyone united against Trump.

Unfortunately, political connections seem to play a big part when it comes to actually getting things passed through a divided government. And stopping corrupt Republican schemes really should take priority above all other squabbles, honestly.