Poll of the Day > I'm going to replay all the Zelda games in release order this year

(+) Yeah! (+)

Watching this video made me realize why the Water Temple is so hated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42SDc2Fhkm8

It's an interesting video that's worth watching in full, but the takeaway from it for this post is that game puzzles are divided into two phases: The part where you figure out the solution to the puzzle, and the part where you execute the solution to the puzzle, after which the game rewards you. The main sense of satisfaction and accomplishment comes from figuring out the solution, though, so if the execution phase takes too long, you create too much separation between the satisfaction of figuring it out and the satisfaction of having the game validate your achievement. That kind of disjointedness can really take the wind out of the sails of a puzzle game, so it's important to avoid it. Some puzzle games like Portal achieve this by having the execution be entertaining in its own right (it doesn't matter that you figured out how you have to jump 10-15 minutes before you complete the jump, because flying around through the portals is just plain fun and keeps the energy up through that delay), others do it by having smaller puzzles to solve as part of executing the solution (like Factorio has larger-scale logistics puzzles to solve to figure out what items you need to produce at a given moment, but executing that solution consists of a series of small-scale spatial puzzles that are more immediately satisfying to solve), and others do it by just having the execution be quick enough to not lose steam, but however it happens, it's important that the game rewards you in a timely fashion for figuring out the puzzle.

In the case of OoT's Water Temple, the central puzzle for the temple is the changing water level. You have to figure out where to go to get different water levels, then bounce between them as needed to get where you need to go. The problem, however, is that once you've found the adjustment spots, there isn't much of a challenge left. In every instance that follows, whenever you reach an obstacle and ask "what level do I need the water to be?" you solve that puzzle almost immediately. The execution, however, is then to backtrack through areas you've already completed to reach the adjustment spot and change the water level to what you need, which means it's often several minutes of unexciting walking between figuring out the solution and being rewarded with being able to move forward. Get it wrong (the door you thought you had to reach wasn't actually the way to go), and it's a few more minutes of walking to try a different option.

In practice, once you have some idea what you're doing and know what to look for, the Water Temple is actually pretty linear and it naturally guides you to the adjustment points when you need them, but if you don't catch that guidance it can result in quite a bit of backtracking, which is both tedious and can be disorienting in a way that makes it harder to find your way through (made even worse by the fact that it is actually possible to run out of keys and brick the temple if you do things wrong enough).

I don't think I got as far as the water temple.

Where does the Game & Watch game fit in the timeline?

adjl posted...

Words & stuff

Maybe Im missing something. Because even though you solve the puzzle of the temple, each room still has their own puzzle, right? So, wouldnt that be enough to keep you going?

And thats assuming that the water level mechanic is a puzzle. It feels more like a mechanic to move around rather than a puzzle Sortnof similar to how shooting the eye in the forest temple gets you to a different part of the temple That said, I never really hated the water temple, anyway

LinkPizza posted...

Maybe Im missing something. Because even though you solve the puzzle of the temple, each room still has their own puzzle, right? So, wouldnt that be enough to keep you going?

And thats assuming that the water level mechanic is a puzzle. It feels more like a mechanic to move around rather than a puzzle Sortnof similar to how shooting the eye in the forest temple gets you to a different part of the temple That said, I never really hated the water temple, anyway

There are puzzles in each room, but getting around the temple relies on the core water level puzzle. It's just not much of a puzzle. I'd venture a guess that whether or not somebody hated the Water Temple will have depended mostly on how often they got the water level wrong and had to backtrack to fix it. If you get into the groove of things, there isn't much backtracking and it's fine, but if you don't end up in that groove and have to fix your mistakes frequently, I can see it becoming a pain.

Yeah. I can see it getting somewhat tedious if you keep choosing the wrong level I usually would check to figure out where I needed to still go earlier, so I didnt have much trouble

FrozenBananas posted...

the rewind feature is the only way I can beat the DKC games, holy shot theyre difficult

maybe 2 and 3, but 1 is very easy

The only issue I had with the water temple was the key behind the longshot. The block was just perfectly hidden behind the chest.

Ogurisama posted...

The only issue I had with the water temple was the key behind the longshot. The block was just perfectly hidden behind the chest.

Not exactly a key, but under the block there was a hole that dropped you into a room that was a long winding route that ended with a key chest. I think I remember having that issue, too.

I'm in the Spirit Temple right now. I have all the Heart Pieces, I only need the Heart Container from this dungeon to have the full 20 hearts (I doubt I'll bother doing that for any other Zelda game, but this one is pretty special to me, so it gets that extra level of treatment).

I just got the Mirror Shield. The Spirit Temple is probably my favourite dungeon in the game, and the connection between the past and the future was a great touch.

I know this isn't the most unique perspective, but good God the owl is annoying. I don't know how or why they greenlit that character, it's totally out of place and he never provides advice that wouldn't be better off figured out on your own. At least in Link's Awakening it sort of fit the bizarre dreamland vibe the game had.

It's bittersweet to be coming to the end of this game. What an absolute treasure this game is, even with its flaws, and even with the N64 crappiness that comes with it (the last time I saw the owl, he flew away straight through the Spirit Temple exterior wall). Despite how simple it is compared to modern games, the differences between the past and the future always strike an emotional note with me. The brief dialogue with Saria after the Forest Temple, saving Lon Lon Ranch (and Malon remembering you after all those years), seeing Darunia's son, all these things were such awesome world building details that outmatch most of what the previous games put forward.

I'll likely finish the game by Friday (there really isn't much left to do), and I'll hopefully get a start on Majora's Mask this weekend. I've been slower in my progress lately, but that isn't to say I'm not enjoying this goal! I'm trying to savour every bit of these games; I'd say the games released from ALttP to WW were the golden era of the Zelda series.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/e/e845b2e0.jpg

faramir77 posted...

I'm in the Spirit Temple right now. I have all the Heart Pieces, I only need the Heart Container from this dungeon to have the full 20 hearts (I doubt I'll bother doing that for any other Zelda game, but this one is pretty special to me, so it gets that extra level of treatment).

I would say you should also do it for MM

LinkPizza posted...

I would say you should also do it for MM

I'm considering it, I'll definitely be doing a lot of the sidequests in MM because that's what really sets that game apart. I might even aim to get all the masks.

I pretty much never beat MM that I don't get all the masks. All heart pieces is another story, since that's a lot (and it requires a restart after completing the Anju-Kafei sidequest so you can get the one from the mayor with the Couple's Mask, and restarting after that quest just feels wrong), but I definitely get all the masks whether I plan on cheesing the final boss with the FD mask or not.

Yeah. Im not sure I ever beat the game without all masks

Yeah MM is all about the side quests in my opinion

Not only is it all about the side quests, it's one of the best side questing experiences in gaming full stop. More so than any other game I've played, MM captures the feeling of "this town and this world existed before me and will exist after me. I'm just dropping in, observing everyone's day-to-day lives and reactions to the events of the game, and helping out with the problems they have as part of those lives." It's such a magnificently organic experience that makes it so easy to care about the people that are being helped out by the side quests and feel that you're making a real difference in the world, which is everything side questing should be.

They aren't all super-important and compelling, and there are certainly a few side quests that are more transparently just "complete this minigame please" (getting the Bunny Hood, for example), but there's some really amazing stuff in there.

I've finished Ocarina of Time. Wow. This game was easily the best so far, which wasn't surprising in the least. This game was a masterpiece. We knew when it released that we'd still be talking about it 10 or even 20 years later, but now over 25 years after it released I can boldly but confidently say people will still mention how significant this game was even 100 years after its release.

By modern standards, it might not seem significant. But compared to its predecessors, especially when played in sequential order, it absolutely shines. The gameplay is solid, the dungeons are unique and require little backtracking, the world is beautiful, the characters are diverse and meaningful, and the changes between the past and future times have a subtle emotional shift that is hard to put into words.

There are also small lore connections to previous games, especially ALttP. They reference the creation of the Dark World during the events of this game, which somehow never clicked with me before. The fact that Ganondorf didn't have a strong and righteous mind was what prevented him from becoming the full King of Evil through the use of the Triforce, which ALttP established as well though the Triforce's purposefully weak interpretation of Ganondorf's wish to "rule the world".

Ocarina of Time was what I considered the best Zelda game for nearly 20 years, until Breath of the Wild released. I'd like to see if that impression stays as I continue through the series. I'll likely start Majora's Mask tomorrow. As I mentioned yesterday, I'm sad to see this game end. The N64 era of Zelda means a huge amount to me. I'll do my best to enjoy every bit of what Majora's Mask has to offer.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/a/ad7de45f.jpg

Eh. Breath of the Wild is good but not THAT good. It's a very different genre change. Like how Assassin's Creed went from a stealth genre to an action genre.

Did you get all the heart pieces? Damn you did that fast

OoT is a contender for my favorite game of all time tbh. yeah i guess it's dated but it does so much so well with what it had. i've almost certainly replayed it more than i have any other game.

linkxmalon forever <3

adjl posted...

I pretty much never beat MM that I don't get all the masks. All heart pieces is another story, since that's a lot (and it requires a restart after completing the Anju-Kafei sidequest so you can get the one from the mayor with the Couple's Mask, and restarting after that quest just feels wrong)

maybe i remember wrong but i don't think there's anything saying link doesn't stick around for a little bit to fix things up before he leaves. i'd imagine if you've done all the sidequests and have the masks that link would probably remember what he did to get the and could act accordingly, or even possibly get help from redeemed skull kid.

it's also been years and years since i've beaten the game though so my memory of how things went at the end is likely iffy.

I did that with the Mario games and boy did I have a blast. It brought back all of my childhood memories of the NES, SNES, and N64 games I had as a kid.

FrozenBananas posted...

Did you get all the heart pieces? Damn you did that fast

My total play time was probably around 10 hours (I didn't actually time it though). I know the game through and through, so not much time was wasted.

I started Majora's Mask last night. I made it to the first dungeon but I want to complete some sidequests before I actually do the dungeon.

One of the heart pieces is obtained from the Postman by pressing the A button after exactly 10 seconds. You're supposed to do this with the Bunny Hood (which reveals an on screen timer for you to watch), but I did it on my FIRST try without it, lmao. Absolute boss moment.

I'm impressed with how much more polished Majora's Mask feels compared to Ocarina of Time. It also has a much more defined personality as a game. I don't know if I'll bother getting all heart pieces in this one (I remember one of them required you to deposit something like 5000 rupees in the bank, good lord that takes forever). However, I have already obtained the one from completing the Deku Playground minigame on each of the three days, which I used to think was one of the toughest heart pieces in the game to get.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/0fd68ef4.jpg

The. Eat time for side quest in MM is after the second dungeon, IIRC I usually do a lot before that. But thats when I get a ton of stuff done

Nade_Duck posted...

maybe i remember wrong but i don't think there's anything saying link doesn't stick around for a little bit to fix things up before he leaves. i'd imagine if you've done all the sidequests and have the masks that link would probably remember what he did to get the and could act accordingly, or even possibly get help from redeemed skull kid.

It's not impossible, and the credits strongly imply that Anju's wedding happens despite not actually showing Kafei being there such that I'm sure everything works out in the long run, but it still just feels wrong to listen to them say "We will greet the morning together" and then say "jk I'm just gonna rewind time so none of this happened bye." They're greeting the morning together, and it's up to me to make sure they have a morning to greet, dammit.

faramir77 posted...

However, I have already obtained the one from completing the Deku Playground minigame on each of the three days, which I used to think was one of the toughest heart pieces in the game to get.

I usually end up getting that one early simply because there's very little else to do in the first cycle if you know what you're doing. If the choice is between sitting around and waiting for the clock tower to open or bashing my head against the playground, I'll take the playground (though it is indeed much easier now than I remember it being as a kid. Funny how that works).

adjl posted...

I usually end up getting that one early simply because there's very little else to do in the first cycle if you know what you're doing. If the choice is between sitting around and waiting for the clock tower to open or bashing my head against the playground, I'll take the playground (though it is indeed much easier now than I remember it being as a kid. Funny how that works).

That's exactly what I did! In the past I used to just spam the scarecrow dance to get to the final night but this time I chose to just get this over with. It was the first heart piece I got, followed closely by the nearly unavoidable one on the platform on the Clock Tower.

I always tried to get a bunch of rupees from the moving bushes. So,
9 every time I left and came back. That got me the adult wallet and heart piece. I would also do the deku minigame. I have kind of a system Id do for the first night cycle