Board 8 > Playing Tyrion Cuthbert, the best non-ace attorney ace attorney game

(+) Yeah! (+)

i couldn't quite recall if the structure of case 4 started with trial or investigation, tbh.

It starts with trial for like... 2 minutes. But it segues into the second portion of trial, which is still technically the same trial day. I just rolled them together.

Ruh Roh.

Ain't no rule that says the monkey can't go testify!

OK the fact that we were reading the monkey's thoughts every time we were speaking with Harold is a really awesome plot point.

Can a monkey be arrested for perjury?

MrSmartGuy posted...

OK the fact that we were reading the monkey's thoughts every time we were speaking with Harold is a really awesome plot point.

Yeah I love this

So, case 4 kind of fucks imo

The default option this starts on for this reasoning section is metal as fuck.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/2/22909bc1.png

Man, as great as that whole case was, it kinda has the same feeling as AA 1-2. You're not really bringing them down yourself. A dead lady is coming back momentarily to win the case for you.

That said, I was about to be really mad when Tyrion pushed Celeste away after winning. I'm sure Tyrion had other things to process at the time, but surely he should've at least been somewhat aware that Eris was fuckin' omniscient when she was breaking his will in the alleyway. He still used the push he got from her to lay into Tymora, but was at least able to tell the truth from the lies in her speech to trust Celeste.

So at least I'm not leaving this case with a really sour taste in my mouth.

Started case 5. That woman von Sanctus was talking to was Rika, huh. She really is an archmage, good for her.

One of these days, my suspecting of Rika will be right.

THIS lS SO MANY SPELLS

Oh good good good. I had a running theory that the thing everyone was there at the cathedral to attend was some kind of ritualistic sacrifice of Aster. Everyone was super quiet about it, and they kept being like "if you aren't aware, I shouldn't be the one to tell you". It was freaking me out. I went, like, 40 minutes of gameplay without anyone saying anything about Aster's whereabouts, or how he was doing.

But here he is. We're fiiiiine.

How great is it that the gesture to cast the House Steelwind ultimate spell is the "ROCK ON BROTHER" sign.

If anything happens to Tyrion or Celeste in this trial, I'm pulling a Rosa from Brooklyn Nine-Nine.

OK hang on here.

Tyrion said he was just gonna go alphabetically, so he started with Aster.

But Alaric exists....

So either he's just excluding children from his list of suspects for whatever reason, the writers just forgot about him, or something fucky's going on here. The writers have been pretty on the ball about that kind of stuff so far, so surely it's either the first or the third option here.

Eris! It's clear that your testimony is contradictory!

Sorry, that wasn't the correct answer.
Did you notice how the music didn't stop?

I.... What?

Fucking amazing.

"too many meta jokes" is another thing i associate with low quality fangames, but this game didn't overdo it and really made it land when they did them

Yeah, they pulled that one out at the exact right time, and it fit Eris' demeanor really well.

lol yeah, this game toes the line on meta humor just carefully enough

I'll go over more detailed thoughts when I'm done, but as I'm going through it currently, I only wanna give either some discrepancies or quirks I'm noticing.

And right after the owner of the Blood Contract is revealed and why they signed it, I think I already know something. I don't know how I'm gonna use it, but it's clear to me that while Eris used Beatrice, she cast Feign Death on Tyrion to make it look like he was dead. That's why Eris still had to revive him after he fucked up the Edict with Aster.

That said, the contract states that after Celeste kills Pierce, Tyrion's consciousness will be restored. I mean, she did that. I don't see a loophole here. I guess I'll find out where we're going with this soon enough.

This is taking me a while because this game is too open-ended in its evidence. I've spent no fewer than 20 times trying to contradict Celeste's statements about her timeline with the fact that Aria's timeline doesn't match up because she went sicko mode before 1:45, and even got a game over in the Asmodeus/Horus battle because of it. Turned out they specifically wanted me to present von Sanctus's death because he was killed too early for it to be from Aria signing a contract after Celeste signing one.

This is extremely frustrating.

I beat the game. I only have one thing to say.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/a/a3e9c821.jpg

MrSmartGuy posted...

This is taking me a while because this game is too open-ended in its evidence. I've spent no fewer than 20 times trying to contradict Celeste's statements about her timeline with the fact that Aria's timeline doesn't match up because she went sicko mode before 1:45, and even got a game over in the Asmodeus/Horus battle because of it. Turned out they specifically wanted me to present von Sanctus's death because he was killed too early for it to be from Aria signing a contract after Celeste signing one.

This is extremely frustrating.

I do recall getting stuck on something frustrating around that point.

MrSmartGuy posted...

I beat the game. I only have one thing to say.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/a/a3e9c821.jpg

lol

That sums it up pretty well!

I really think case 5 had the potential to be a showstopper finale like AA's finale cases but boy it does not stick the landing imo, it really feels like it bit off more than it could chew and they just didn't have time to iron out its issues and had to leave a bunch of threads hanging

In all seriousness, that does kinda sum up my true feelings about the game. It tries really hard to get you to think the stakes couldn't be higher and that the fate of the kingdom rests on you successfully getting through this ordeal, and yet.... the way it actually ends just kinda lands with a plop. In a vacuum, I like the idea of the leader of the military just casually slashing the king and being like "whoops my bad", but no one around seems to care all that much, so I didn't either. Whatever.

Sucks for Aria, cuz she was my second-favorite character in the game behind Celeste. After thinking back on the ending as a whole, I guess it makes sense for her character to act the way she was, but it undersold the shit out of the gravitas of it all, and only perpetuated the overarching feeling of "que sera sera" everyone had.

I dunno. This is one of those cases that loses a lot of points from me in that, because it's in a mystery game, it has to have all these wacky twists and turns for the player to figure out so it's exciting. Aster can't just kill some nobles on his own time some other time, gotta get his fiance that legitimately loves him to death involved for some reason???? Instead of the actual head of the noble familly????????

The Eris part was great (minus the infuriating nonsense I went through with the evidence presenting), and everything involving Celeste was super interesting and fun to tear down. Just really wish they could've stuck the landing, and I'd have nothing but praise to sing for this game.

I saw in the credits all the instruments were listed. That's awesome they got a legit orchestra to do the soundtrack; never would've expected that.

Anyway, yeah, guess everyone can dump whatever they've been waiting to contribute now.

MrSmartGuy posted...

Anyway, yeah, guess everyone can dump whatever they've been waiting to contribute now.

I just really like Aria and Celeste.

Case 5 > 4 > 2 > 1 > 3

Case 5 would be, like, mid-tier in AA and case 3 would be bottom 10.

Overall, they're OK, not great.

That said, that only takes the cases themselves into account. The character-building, especially around specifically Tyrion and Celeste, was SUPER good, and that's not included in my rankings. Their overall plot was fantastic, and is the main reason I'm still happy I went through this experience.

AND THEY KISSED AHHHHHHHHHHH

In seriousness, I mean, yeah, I basically agree that case 5 doesn't quite reach the peaks it should, but the segment involving Celeste and Pierce and the contract was genuinely intriguing in a way that lots of late-era Ace Attorney games never managed to be (Even good games like the GAA duology never really had you shocked about the circumstances of specific events like the original trilogy did back in the day) so it has that in its favor, and it works well for the character arcs which, as I said, is the main thing I'm invested in, so, whatever. Case 4 is probably the tightest ("best") case when it comes to just the mechanics of the murder mystery. They did want to do more with case 5 I think but had to wrap it up for budget reasons (this is why Alaric being polymorphed goes literally nowhere) so oh well but hopefully the sequel will have more room to work with.

I was wondering about Alaric the entire time from going into demon world onward.

Was suspicious of the poor kid clear up until Aster flat out admitted everything.

Oh, that's one more thing I wasn't a huge fan of: naming Celeste as the "murderer".

I get what you're trying do, game, but making me select her name 5 times in a row to make sure I understand how hard it is for Tyrion to actually say it is not having the effect you're going for.

The soundtrack of this game is absolutely stellar. The guy they got, insaneintherain, does a bunch of jazz remixes of game music on youtube and he went all out here. I didn't know if he could compose - turns out he can! He played most of the instruments himself but there were a few other guest artists who contributed. The production value here is just out of this world - this game just sounds better than Ace Attorney soundtracks.

Yeah, all the stuff with Eris/Celeste in case 5 works really well and that's where the case shines. The stuff with Aster and the overall politics don't work as well - like I said, feels like some stuff basically just got cut either for time or because there was just too much shit to juggle. The game ends on such a weak note - the Eris thing feels like the game's actual climax but it feels like taking out Aster should be really satisfying and it just isn't. There are lots of flourishes in the case that look like they WOULD have made a good mystery, but it doesn't really work or make sense. Like, why would Aster have even made the mistake he did with the timing when his whole goal was to give himself an alibi by making it look like he couldn't move around? It's silly. And he gives up more easily than Redd White. It sucks. It should've been great.

Aria Steelwind is such a shockingly good character. Like, I've seen people try to make prosecutor characters before and they always come off like bad deviantart OCs, and she SEEMS like that at first - 18 year old prodigy prosecutor who doesn't initially seem like she has a personality, yeah, seen it all before. I never saw it coming by the end of the game that she'd be such a complex and developed character. She's honestly sort of a breath of fresh air compared to some of the prosecutors in AA in that she's like, actually reasonable and just doing her best, but they avoided making her a mary sue. I love the reversal they did in case 4 where Ruby's the von Karma-esque lawyer who has total control over the case and Aria's the one who's desperately trying to prove her case but unable to see it through. Her relationship with Aster is brilliant in how heartbreaking it is.

The main cast of this game in general is great. Tyrion's fine, but Celeste is such a fantastic sidekick character that she really elevates the two of them together. This might be one of the most believable romances I've seen in a game! I actually got invested in these two working things out! This is one of the throughlines that I think does stick the landing and I was satisfied with where these two end up at the end.

I really rooted for this game a lot and I think the characters and writing were really good for what the game is, but some of the plot and mystery design just barely fell short of being superb, and it sucks - this game is SO CLOSE, imo. I still like it better than like, AA4, lol, but the fact that it's even close to stacking up to an Ace Attorney game is a miracle in its own right for which I have to applaud the game, despite its faults.

I would basically rank this game higher than AJ, DD, and AA1 by default just for making me actually care about the characters, which is a decent accomplishment for what is only a few steps up from a fangame. (And I don't think any other AA fangame has done that, certainly not aviary attorney)

And I like Celeste more than basically any of the non-Maya sidekicks (other than Susato) and Aria more than like half the prosecutors. And Ruby is a refreshing take on the mentor angle as well, I wish she'd done a bit more in the end but maybe it got cut as well, I hope she gets some redemption in the sequel. And even Tyrion himself, I mean, I feel he's a more coherent and relatable character than Apollo is, even with how hard DD and SoJ tried to salvage his character.

Oh and the music is actually really good. It doesn't always fit the moment and themes tend to start/end awkwardly, but the Objection, Pursuit, etc themes are great and Celeste's theme is lovely.

I like Celeste even more than Maya there I said it.

The music when you're doing the in-courtroom arguments turns my underwear into slightly whiter underwear.

Oh and let's not forget our favourite detective, Orym White, whose character arc rivals fan-favourites Dick Gumshoe and Ema Skye and... whose character development was... is... um, his greatest moments - oh sorry, these were my notes for if his character arc didn't get left on the cutting board. But it sounds like it would've been great!

FUCKIN LISTEN TO THIS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPOHRsCvCw8

I wrote that before seeing what you said about Tyrion and Celeste lol. Yeah I just think the character writing in this game is so excellently done - probably better than most Ace Attorney games in a lot of ways, honestly - that the game kinda ends up better than the sum of its parts. Like, none of the cases by themselves are spectacular, but the character arcs are really, really good and that counts for a lot.

4 > 5 > 2 > 3 > 1

I really really liked case 4 a lot, more than you did I think. The whole reversal with Tyrion being prosecutor against Ruby was super fun and was pulled off well despite obviously being a little forced - no worse than what 6-5 did with Apollo and Phoenix though. I really liked Beatrice as the case's 'villain' - she's got that satisfying moment where you finally get that crack in her demeanor that makes an AA villain fun and I enjoy her whole tragic backstory that makes you feel bad for taking her down. The creeping sense of dread with which you realize she has to be the killer kind of reminds me of Engarde in a good way, too. The case still has some issues but it feels like the most cohesive product to me.

Case 5 is partially brilliant and partially a total mess. The way the game sets the board for this case is spectacular - Tyrion and Celeste and Aria are all in really interesting places arc-wise at this point and the stakes that get set, with the simultaneous plots of the wedding and with Garrick's callout make for a really good canvas. Unfortunately, like I said, it feels like the game ran out of budget and just bit off more than it could chew, and a lot of parts of this case feel half baked and contrived. The part that DOES work well is everything with Eris - the climactic battle with her in which you figure out that Garrick Pierce killed himself and Celeste signed the contract fraudulently is like, top-tier classic AA stuff (although obviously done in a completely different style). I just wish everything came together in the end. I'm really mad about it because it's THIS CLOSE to transcendence.

Case 2 is just pretty solid all around, the side characters aren't very good but the murder mystery is rock solid and executes well on its premise. I don't have a ton to say about it - it's just good. It works. It got the job done. The scene with Tyrion and Celeste subtly interrogating Miriam was brilliant.

Case 3 fell a little bit short - the mystery starts out really promising but then the answer just becomes "oh it's more arcane construct bullshit" and it kind of lost me at that point. Von Sanctus was a fun but kind of predictable villain. I did like a lot of character development in this case but the whole thing doesn't really come together as a compelling mystery.

Case 1 felt very tutorial case, I do like the early development of Tyrion and Celeste's relationship (reminds me a little bit of Phoenix and Maya in 1-2) but the murder mystery wasn't that great. Felt like the game really hit its stride in case 2. It did show some strengths here but it did feel a little bit pilot-episode.

Yeah this game's soundtrack is so good that it breaks my brain a little bit

Dels posted...

Oh and let's not forget our favourite detective, Orym White, whose character arc rivals fan-favourites Dick Gumshoe and Ema Skye and... whose character development was... is... um, his greatest moments - oh sorry, these were my notes for if his character arc didn't get left on the cutting board. But it sounds like it would've been great!

It is telling that since the start of this topic, and until you made this post, I had not even once thought about Orym White

He could have been a really cool character, they just forgot to give him an arc or any development at all, oops

GAA2 > AAI2 > T&T > SoJ > DD > AA1 > TC > JFA > GAA1 > AJ > AAI2

I'd need some time to let this sit, but this is where I think it'd go as of right now for me. Like I said, the cases themselves aren't that great, but I'm left with an even better impression of Tyrion and Celeste's story wrap-up than Phoenix and Maya's after 2-4, and Aria's is WAAAAAAY better than Franzy's.

Yeah if I really had to do a ranking where I put TC in with the other AA games I'd probably go:

3 > 6 > 2 > 1 > GAA2 > AAI2 > 5 > TC > GAA1 > AAI1 > LvW > 4

I guess? 5 vs TC is a really tough call for me because TC hits higher highs but 5 just has a really steady floor and has all the fundamentals. It's a little hard for TC to compete in a lot of ways, especially in the visual department where it just doesn't have the budget

But I do honestly think that the strength of its character writing propels it above the lower-tier AA games

Needless to say, I do believe it has lived up to the topic title.

MrSmartGuy posted...

Needless to say, I do believe it has lived up to the topic title.

Yeah I'm glad you liked it as much as I did, seems like you came away with a pretty similar opinion on it as I had. It's... really good! Easily exceeded my expectations for what an indie AA tribute was gonna be able to pull off. I'm forgiving of some of its flaws because the stuff it does pull off is legitimately impressive.

About to start playing this again after needing to stop mid-Case 4 for a bit. Haven't read any of the new posts.

One thing I've noticed that people might have missed is that there's a good amount of important characterization dialogue 'hidden' behind presenting evidence to people during investigations. Feels like more than in AA.

I don't know why modern AA games / fan-made games haven't yet implemented some way to just highlight which pieces of evidence/profiles will give dialogue. Going through every single one individually and getting the default response 80% of the time just to find the few with real dialogue is not fun. It's 2024, guys, come on!

We did it for every single person, every single piece/spell/profile though every time.

Case 4 beated. That was maybe my favorite non-epic AA case...and there's still one more to go? Not bad, game.

Actual question: how long is Case 5 compared to 4? I need to know so I can carve out a chunk of my schedule and play it all in one go.

A decent bit longer? But not super long.