Current Events > What's wrong with Magic: The Gathering?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I've been wanting to get into card games, and found a lot of people playing either One Piece or Lorcana have jumped to it from MtG, and it's probably the worst time to get into it. What did Wizards do this time?

Prices for cards can be quite high.

It's fun if you're just playing with friends and don't give a shit about whatever the meta is. Cards are pretty pricey nowadays tho.

Smashingpmkns posted...

It's fun if you're just playing with friends and don't give a shit about whatever the meta is. Cards are pretty pricey nowadays tho.

I built a party box with a bunch of left over cards. It's a ton of fun.

Too many new sets every year, huge power creep.

Hasbro owns Wizards and is trying to wring every single cent they can out of the game by flooding the market with new sets, going all-in on appealing to speculators by making 10 versions of the same card, and charging murder prices for what should be essential cards. I believe you can still have a good time playing Magic if you stick to Commander and find a playgroup that isn't SUPER competitive, but it's definitely harder than it was before.

They went all in with crossover packs because they sell well, so the game's identity has kind of been destroyed. There's something weird about sitting down for a game of magic the gathering only to watch starscream get played to attack Minsc and boo from baldur's gate, but the attack gets blocked by aragorn and a tyranid.

This has made playing standard more complicated since only a handful of the most recent sets are tournament legal, drastically accelerating the rate at which people who want to play competitively need to spend money.

Meanwhile, the commander format has more or less taken over casual play to the point where wizards is starting to focus more and more on cards that are appropriate for that set which is created a giant rift in the player base.

Then to top it all off, they got caught recently using AI generated art in there advertising on social media.

Mostly the developer. They pushed out so many products that it became a struggle to keep up with it (and I strongly believe there isn't actually anyone that did keep up with everything) leading to extreme fatigue. Then you have the massive drama bits, such as them sending the Pinkertons at someone who got a box early and the $250 pack of non-usable proxies, that really soured people even beyond the fatigue.

They also supposedly put out some less fun product, but I suspect that it has a lot more to do with people getting tired of it all more than the cards being meh. Even the supposedly bland sets are a blast and it is more about not being able to get attached to any due to 2 more sets being out almost immediately afterwards.

As someone who only played commander, everything was being designed for commander was dumb. The fun part of commander was finding pieces in the sea of existing cards. When so much was designed with commander in mind, not just standard but even commander products, it completely warped too many formats for the worse.

1. Cost
2. Power Creep
3. Content Bloat
4. Really Really Terrible Developers (they hired Pinkertons to steal from someone and threaten them)

I got into them a long time ago. If you have some friends to play it with that don't take it so seriously it is more than fine.

The President of WOTC just got fired so atleast they are aware of the state of the game

refmon posted...

The President of WOTC just got fired so atleast they are aware of the state of the game

1. She left, she wasn't fired.
2. It is absolutely not going to get better as it is Hasbro that was making the bad calls for the most part.

I have thousands and thousands of cards but generally the newer the cards are the more powerful they are and thats annoying

but its still a great game

It's fun to play casually with friends that don't have over powered decks that can combo you to death in one turn. The most fun I had with commander was with friends who used the base commander sets because of all the politics involved. The moment someone brings in an overpowered deck, you know you have no chance of winning except for everyone to gang up on that player.

s0nicfan posted...

This has made playing standard more complicated since only a handful of the most recent sets are tournament legal, drastically accelerating the rate at which people who want to play competitively need to spend money.

??

they made standard longer recently, which means cards will not rotate out as fast. so the rate is slowed down, not accelerated. But honestly I think this was a generally poor idea since it came at a time when everyone was getting extremely tired with standard, and then their big standard announcement was a surprise +1 year to a format many people were already sick of

Its fun, but my group we dont take it serious and use proxys to avoid high cost.

Relient_K posted...

As someone who only played commander, everything was being designed for commander was dumb. The fun part of commander was finding pieces in the sea of existing cards. When so much was designed with commander in mind, not just standard but even commander products, it completely warped too many formats for the worse.

There are some new fan formats out there worth trying if you're looking for something fresh. I recommend "Wacky races" where you attack a "finish line" by crewing vehicles and the first player to 10 "laps" wins.
https://blog.cardkingdom.com/fringe-format-wacky-races/

Because everything is driven by crewing vehicles and blocking opponent attempts at getting a lap, you're back to that "classic" commander feel of trying random shit to see what works.

LSGW_Zephyra posted...

4. Really Really Terrible Developers (they hired Pinkertons to steal from someone and threaten them)

And that was an aftermath set, which were booster packs containing five cards selling for the same price as a regular booster pack.

s0nicfan posted...

They went all in with crossover packs because they sell well, so the game's identity has kind of been destroyed.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=2KcFKj14cYo

I actually remember liking the PS1 game. The card game though is a hard pass

Yeah, lol. I keep thinking of this whenever I see CE raging about whoever the hell this MTG chick is.

The same thing happened to me with George Zimmerman. Overnight there were a thousand new topics about Zimmerman and I'm like... The guy who sent the telegram?

Rising costs and most formats being a mess.

Last I heard, they sent some Pinkertons to a customer who got their stuff too early, no fault of his own. Just some fun card game stuff.

Seaman_Prime posted...

Last I heard, they sent some Pinkertons to a customer who got their stuff too early, no fault of his own. Just some fun card game stuff.

Worse then that, the guy gave it to his friend so they went after his friend and threatened him and then stole his stuff.

EDH killed Magic.

The biggest problems w/ MTG is that they apparently ran out of decent ideas and just moved onto insane shit and pumping out limited content for shit tons of money. I was mostly done w/ it the moment that Planeswalkers dropped, but I still play a few times a year w/ friends, but I don't even have my own decks anymore.

TheDurinator posted...

EDH killed Magic.

this is either the exact truth or completely incorrect, depending on how you look at it

it's the most popular format by far and is probably a big reason the game is still alive as a thing at all. but at the same time, heavier and heavier leaning into the EDH side of magic when creating new sets and cards and etc is what sort of killed the game for everyone who doesn't want to play it

$80+ booster packs

I'm really old. First played around the time Arabian Nights came out, stopped after Fallen Empires where I felt it was just getting too bloated. About 10 years ago went to a little instore tournament with my brother and his brother in law. I had no idea what was going on anymore. Every card had something special it could do. Graveyard seemed to be treated like another draw pile. Found out mana burn wasn't a thing anymore. And for a draft style set-up, a few players had some really worn cards, almost like they didn't come out of an unopened pack.

What bugged me the most was constantly hearing that after I ended my turn, opponents start going "right before you end your turn, I tap all this crap and do this stuff, and you can't react to it since you said your turn was over."

kirbymuncher posted...

this is either the exact truth or completely incorrect, depending on how you look at it

it's the most popular format by far and is probably a big reason the game is still alive as a thing at all. but at the same time, heavier and heavier leaning into the EDH side of magic when creating new sets and cards and etc is what sort of killed the game for everyone who doesn't want to play it

Naw, it's either not understanding what they're talking about or completely wrong. EDH has gotten some development time, certainly, but it's all a perspective thing for 99.9% of the complained about cards as to whether or not any change actually occurred. Most of the time it's just those ~30 "pack filler rares" turned into "EDH cards" as a mental hurdle. Their their power never got proportionally better, they never changed any format, etc. The design space didn't change in the slightest and it's the same as it always has been: cards that are bad and played in no non-casual format. Only now people treat EDH like it's a real thing. As for the "actually designed for EDH" cards you pretty much are left with stuff that no one actually complains about: Command Tower, all of the "Join Together" cards, etc. Instead it's the actually completely garbage in EDH cards (like True-Name Nemesis) and bulk "absolutely unplayable in every non-EDH format" cards (like Doubling Season) that get the moniker for what has "ruined Magic".

EDH certainly gets a lot of development time compared to what it was before, but the big change has been them no longer making garbage starter decks in favor of making mixed-bag EDH decks: hardly a doom-and-gloom affair. It is absolutely not because of this change, however, that any of the poor reception of modern Magic has happened: it is purely grasping at straws about the change in perception and misrelating it to bulk rares. Like, right now Double Down is worth basic ally nothing as a preorder (ie. it's absolutely trash in non-EDH formats) in the exact same way as all of the other garbage bulk rares/mytics were in the past. And just like Parallel Lives it's going to be an easy $20-30 card in a couple of years after leaving print because it's an obvious card that will be abusable in EDH.

It's all the same crap with the same smell, but now people hate the toilet cover so everything is wrong.

loafy013 posted...

What bugged me the most was constantly hearing that after I ended my turn, opponents start going "right before you end your turn, I tap all this crap and do this stuff, and you can't react to it since you said your turn was over."

That was them pulling one over you/cheating. You absolutely could react to anything they did barring something weird going on (which really wouldn't have been a thing during that time period barring Interrupts).

people keep confusing it with Marjorie Taylor Greene

ellis123 posted...

EDH certainly gets a lot of development time compared to what it was before

This is definitely part of what I'm saying - they only have a finite amount of development and testing time, and more towards EDH means less for other formats and I don't think it's too much of a stretch to blame the poor reception of standard for a long time on this. it feels like a second-class citizen (and it is). But also the EDH-centric style has impacts on normal set design too. things like the absolute flood of board wipes and the massive number of legendary creatures are from printing to get cards into EDH, and I also feel like the power creep of standard is a result of trying to make things people will care about in larger formats (again, EDH)

The other point I have is more of a personal thing and it's sort of hazy in my mind but I feel like MtG is becoming increasingly superhero-ified. I guess in some sense that started way back with planeswalkers (I like planeswalkers! they're a cool design space and fun to play with) but it's gotten more extreme in recent years and I just sorta don't like the vibe it gives off

mono blue

kirbymuncher posted...

The other point I have is more of a personal thing and it's sort of hazy in my mind but I feel like MtG is becoming increasingly superhero-ified. I guess in some sense that started way back with planeswalkers (I like planeswalkers! they're a cool design space and fun to play with) but it's gotten more extreme in recent years and I just sorta don't like the vibe it gives off

To sort of elaborate on this: the most recent set, outlaws at thunder junction, has 80 rares/mythics. 41 of these are legendary. If you don't count lands (because there's always cycles of rare dual lands), there are 63 rare/mythic permanents total of which 41 are legendary. That's like two thirds. it's insane.

compare to, say, kaladesh, from late 2016 (I just picked an older set kinda at random). It has 72 rares, of which 53 are non-land permanents and only 15 of those (less than one third!) are legendary

kirbymuncher posted...

This is definitely part of what I'm saying - they only have a finite amount of development and testing time, and more towards EDH means less for other formats and I don't think it's too much of a stretch to blame the poor reception of standard for a long time on this. it feels like a second-class citizen (and it is). But also the EDH-centric style has impacts on normal set design too. things like the absolute flood of board wipes and the massive number of legendary creatures are from printing to get cards into EDH, and I also feel like the power creep of standard is a result of trying to make things people will care about in larger formats (again, EDH)

The other point I have is more of a personal thing and it's sort of hazy in my mind but I feel like MtG is becoming increasingly superhero-ified. I guess in some sense that started way back with planeswalkers (I like planeswalkers! they're a cool design space and fun to play with) but it's gotten more extreme in recent years and I just sorta don't like the vibe it gives off.

It is, yes. Basically none of the changes in development time have been explicitly about EDH beyond "there are now a lot of EDH decks." None of the changes have been about actually altering the power level, none of them have been about changing the card styles, etc. At no point have they actually lowered the quality of Standard in favor of EDH. There are a lot of board wipes? That has nothing to do with EDH at all as they have put in the average amount per set and everything to do with them basically removing rotation due to the sales struggling. There are a load of Legendary creatures? That only has tangential relationship to EDH has Legendary has long since been a super under utilized mechanic, has always been extremely popular, and is filled to the brim with a bunch of cards that are beyond trash in EDH (or are the same "this is garbage in non-EDH formats" like we've had since Legends). Power creep is a problem? That has nothing to do with EDH. All of the best EDH cards printed have had basically no relation to other formats and vice-versa. Like, Ramunap Red was a top contender in the "which is the best standard deck ever" because of power creep, but it had jack to do with EDH: by definition literally none of the cards in the deck are ever going to be usable in EDH beyond the basics. Power creep definitely is a problem, but EDH absolutely is not the culprit and any complaints about it always come across as a complaint about them trying to make a Modern playable card and acting like EDH is the culprit (Ragavan is a Legendary creature, but he is absolutely not an EDH sin).

So yeah, saying that EDH is the culprit at basically any level is just full of it and grasping at ways to explicitly make it the boogieman for whatever reason. Problems exist in Magic, but they absolutely do not come from any changes made for EDH purposes.

As for the personal reason... I can get behind that. MtG definitely had a vibe that it has since changed and if you don't like the new one then the game is not going to do you favors. The only relevant comment I would make there is that it has done it multiples of times so it's very much not a recent thing at all. Having a period that was your jam is a thing, but it is definitely not a new shift beyond the current theming being very pop-fantasy (in your words "superhero-ified") and thus you are not a fan of the current thing rather than it actually being something that they changed on the development side of things. They've had a multitude of eras and you are not a fan of the current one, not that they have actually changed the way that they design the game on a fundamental level (though they have done that, it has little to do with your complaint in actual context and is a separate issue).

kirbymuncher posted...

To sort of elaborate on this: the most recent set, outlaws at thunder junction, has 80 rares/mythics. 41 of these are legendary. If you don't count lands (because there's always cycles of rare dual lands), there are 63 rare/mythic permanents total of which 41 are legendary. That's like two thirds. it's insane.

compare to, say, kaladesh, from late 2016 (I just picked an older set kinda at random). It has 72 rares, of which 53 are non-land permanents and only 15 of those (less than one third!) are legendary

And Legends had 61 Legendaries, so clearly they are backing up on the Legedaries!

Thunder Junction is specifically a Legendary heavy set as a thing. Pointing out that it specifically has more legendaries than a set that isn't based around that is just disingenuous. You can easily just go to the last non-Legendary focused sets, Murders at Karlov Manor, and end up with 27 Legendary: not exactly a super high number for the supposed take over. Yes it's more than Kaladash, but as I mentioned before it's a bit silly to act like the act of Legendary stuff existing at all is because of EDH as almost none of the cards in question are even slightly playable in EDH. All that has happened is that they are putting out more Legendary dank because it is a highly underutilized space and they can put out more interesting/powerful stuff if they make it legendary.

ellis123 posted...

always come across as a complaint about them trying to make a Modern playable card and acting like EDH is the culprit

I guess this part is not really great either.

I just personally do not like the idea of specifically printing cards into eternal formats (this includes EDH). full stop. they are fun and interesting because they are an accumulation of cards over time that were not really supposed to be together, opening up space for interesting emergent synergies and whatnot. while they're targetted at entirely different sorts of players, both things like modern horizons and EDH precon sets bypass this entirely and are just super lame imo

The biggest issue with the game is the popularity of commander.

It's a truly wretched format that has been hurting the game since the very first precon.

kirbymuncher posted...

I guess this part is not really great either.

I just personally do not like the idea of specifically printing cards into eternal formats (this includes EDH). full stop. they are fun and interesting because they are an accumulation of cards over time that were not really supposed to be together, opening up space for interesting emergent synergies and whatnot. while they're targetted at entirely different sorts of players, both things like modern horizons and EDH precon sets bypass this entirely and are just super lame imo

Yet that has always been the since those sets came into existence. Like, once they came out with Type 2 (ie. Standard) they already were printing cards explicitly for Type 1 (ie. Legacy). Like, Force of Will was made to stop Type 1 combos from being a thing and was kind of meh in Standard: literally nothing that is out now comes anywhere close to that level of flagrant "this is for another format."

Nothing has changed.

BewmHedshot posted...

Too many new sets every year, huge power creep.

This. They destroyed standard which used to be the main way of playing the game in favor of the popular commander, cause they could sell more. So now every set has a lot of commander catering cards along with 4 commander decks. Then there universe beyond sets which are bringing lot of pop culture universes into magic and some dont like having to play gandalf equipped with a fallout powersuit against a defending ironman (this is not a made up scenario btw).