Current Events > If existential fear won't get you to vote against Trump, then nothing will.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Anteaterking posted...

Personally I see my vote as being for harm minimization and not my enthusiastic support for a candidate, but not everyone does and a lot of people itt seem to be thinking that the trolley problem has been "morally decided".

I imagine most people see it that way. I'm not looking at everyone like, "You fucking murderer."

EPR-radar posted...

I don't want your goddamn vote. I want you to shut up about not voting to reduce the amount of defeatist GOP-serving drivel out there.

Has there been a single post in which I've told others that they shouldn't vote? If they want to engage me in conversation, I'm going to converse with them.

Not much longer. I'm pretty much over this conversation and I think I've said all that there is to say.

Cemith posted...

Making decent decisions 4 and 8 years ago do not absolve you of not doing the same thing this year. I held the door open for someone this morning, doesn't mean I get to punch someone in the face tonight.

You are either against the rise in fascism, or you are complacent and culpable.

I'm complacent and culpable in the reelection of Joe Biden then because that's what's going to happen.

FortuneCookie posted...

I'm complacent and culpable in the reelection of Joe Biden then because that's what's going to happen.

Let's fucking hope so.

DrizztLink posted...

Do you think nobody here does that?

That comment was not just about the people on CE, it's a response to the overall state of the Democratic Party. The vast majority of the people who believe that democracy is at stake don't do much more than vote. That's why all our democratic institutions like our unions, media, many local parties, etc are all broken and corporatized compared to what they used to be. Whenever they speak about their own vision of what fighting fascism entails, it starts and ends at electoral politics, at most voter registration and GOTV/phone banking. To permanently win over fascism, it'll take a lot more than that.

Cemith posted...

Telling people to vote against fascism isn't helpful?

You said a bunch of shit that means nothing.

I've never said that. Because I don't believe that. Voting is necessary, but it's just one part of a larger constellation of strategies. Simply talking about voting alone creates a disengaged citizen that can't really influence or exercise power because voting is a one time act every few years, it doesn't build organizations that influence elected officials or the media, it can be blocked or ignored by those very officials or the courts, or the the military or the police etc, it can be influenced by historical events, and without the other strategies, it's not sufficient to sustain a working democracy.

legendary_zell posted...

...working democracy.

I agree, but I'm not the one that apparently needs to be convinced that voting is good.

Change is granular and short of a revolution does not happen overnight.

legendary_zell posted...

Voting is necessary, but it's just one part of a larger constellation of strategies. Simply talking about voting alone creates a disengaged citizen that can't really influence or exercise power because voting is a one time act every few years, it doesn't build organizations that influence elected officials or the media, it can be blocked or ignored by those very officials or the courts, or the the military or the police etc, it can be influenced by historical events, and without the other strategies, it's not sufficient to sustain a working democracy.

This I agree with. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that voting D in general elections isn't even a political act -- it's just self-preservation and the bare minimum to expect of a civilized person. Some people don't have the time or energy for more than the bare minimum, and that's OK, as long as they don't presume to dictate how people that are doing more should do their activism.

legendary_zell posted...

. Do something to hold the President accountable so he gets more votes, go start a democratic union, go protest, organize a boycott, organize a political education or study group, gather signatures for an initiative or recall, picket, give a speech

Out of the things you listed, gathering signatures for a ballot initiative or a recall are the only things that are on par with the efficacy of voting.

Cemith posted...

I agree, but I'm not the one that apparently needs to be convinced that voting is good.

Change is granular and short of a revolution does not happen overnight.

You don't convince someone that voting is good by simply telling them that, especially when they don't believe any options that actually represent them or will improve their lives are on the table.

You do it by getting them involved in a social/economic project to transform things, they have to believe that better things are possible and that they have a role in securing those better things. That they can join with other people to influence the conditions of their lives. Then voting becomes a matter of course as part of that larger project. That's orders of magnitude more effective than telling someone to vote so their life doesn't get 80% worse instead of 20% worse.

That doesn't have to be revolutionary, but you can't always fight through well justified apathy with fear. There has to be something better and a way to achieve it that's different from what people are already doing.

Cemith posted...

Let's fucking hope so.

Oddly enough, DBZ Abridged covered it pretty well.

You think you're better than everyone else, but there you stand: the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs and your rigid pacifism crumbles into bloodstained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns. You were a coward to your last whimper.

People acting high and mighty for not voting for Biden but letting Trump win are basically just ignorant hypocrites who dont really believe they are doing the right thing or holding onto their values / principles.

if they cared about people at all, theyd vote for Biden. They know this. They dont care.

justaguy3492 posted...

Out of the things you listed, gathering signatures for a ballot initiative or a recall are the only things that are on par with the efficacy of voting.

Those things are electoral, and just like voting, they're not effective or reliable without those other forms of organizing. But they're more useful as ways to encourage small d democratic behavior than voting because they require fewer people and more active participation/organization.

Those other things I mentioned aren't good just because of their direct effect, which may be minimal, or even negative in some instances. They're necessary because they build democratic habits and solidarity. They let people practice democracy.

The limited efficacy of voting alone should be very apparent in a world with an unelected, stacked, right wing judiciary allowing gerrymandering, dismantling the regulatory state, and striking down voter protections and popular laws/policies. Without those other strategies, that's the end of the story and apathy is increased because anything good that's passed will be struck down with no recourse anyway. That reality trains lawmakers and voters to think smaller and smaller and problems become impossible to solve, making politics less relevant to your average person who doesn't base their identity in being a Democratic Voting Antifascist.

"I care about Gaza, so I'm gonna let Trump win and fuck them over harder. Also, fuck America and everyone in it. PS I care about everyone and want no one hurt."

legendary_zell posted...

making politics less relevant to your average person who doesn't base their identity in being a Democratic Voting Antifascist.

What I'm hoping for is a sea change, where enough average people finally realize "oh shit, if we don't vote Republicans into oblivion, we'll turn into Nazi Germany". And to get there, we will need an "all of the above" strategy including unions, various flavors of activists, and an improved and more energetic Democratic Party.

But that points right at the central problem -- this is a large set of cats, and herding cats is tough. Republicans are much, much easier to lead.

hockeybabe89 posted...

"I care about Gaza, so I'm gonna let Trump win and fuck them over harder. Also, fuck America and everyone in it. PS I care about everyone and want no one hurt."

You left off the best part -- "I will broadcast my wonderful attitude online, and get all pissy when called out on it."

legendary_zell posted...

That doesn't have to be revolutionary, but you can't always fight through well justified apathy with fear. There has to be something better and a way to achieve it that's different from what people are already doing

When a bomb is about to explode and kill a bunch of people you scream "Run! Get the fuck out! There's a bomb!", not consider the ineffectiveness of fear tactics and form a measured and personalized response that will present people with the benefits of running away.

Thats the one thing I hate about being a liberal.

Our party is just a snake eating its own tail.

Meanwhile republicans are operating off a playbook, project 2025

legendary_zell posted...

You don't convince someone that voting is good by simply telling them that, especially when they don't believe any options that actually represent them or will improve their lives are on the table.

Between you and me, any adult that doesn't already understand the immense consequences of Republicans winning another election right now is not someone that acts on good faith, or could be relied on to make the right decision when the time comes. It is either complacency or willful ignorance. With FortuneCookie, it's clearly both.

legendary_zell posted...

That doesn't have to be revolutionary, but you can't always fight through well justified apathy with fear. There has to be something better and a way to achieve it that's different from what people are already doing.

I do what I can. No one can tell me that apathy is ever justified when literal lives are on the line. Never. Same thing with fearmongering.

Here's a reason based argument.

Trump won in 2016 and installed three lifetime appointees and now girls that have been raped have to travel state lines to get a rape baby aborted.

I'm sorry if you think this is fearmongering.
I don't call it fearmongering if someone tells me to leave a building that's on fire. That's just common sense.

If the "fear" I'm fighting apathy with is actual unalienable fact, then I would hope that would chill any sane person from the Republican party.

But it's clearly not enough.

hockeybabe89 posted...

When a bomb is about to explode and kill a bunch of people you scream "Run! Get the fuck out! There's a bomb!", not consider the ineffectiveness of fear tactics and form a measured and personalized response that will present people with the benefits of running away.

I tell you fear doesn't always work and you respond with "but fear!!!"

You're refusing to get it. You SEE that it's not working and yet you insist that it will. You have never convinced anyone on this board or elsewhere with this tactic and yet it seems to be your only play.

If you see that people are not running away from the bomb when you yell bomb, then YES you must do something different at that point.

The bomb analogy is overly reductive, but let's complicate it to make it more accurate. Some people in the room love bombs and wanna die, some don't believe there's a bomb at all, some are paralyzed by the prospect of death, but most believe the room is locked and there's no way out whether they stay or go, or that they can't get enough people to pull the heavy door with them. People have been promised that they'd be saved from previous bombs, but they weren't. The people who are supposed to save them are not promising them complete safety from the bomb, only that it'll take only an arm or leg off, rather than killing them outright. Some people want to know why they're in a room with a bomb and how they can prevent that from happening in the future.

I could go on.

In that circumstance, you can't expect yelling run alone to be effective. That's far closer to the circumstance we're in.

Yazarogi posted...

Thats the one thing I hate about being a liberal.

Our party is just a snake eating its own tail.

Meanwhile republicans are operating off a playbook, project 2025

This. If I wanted to make a career in political activism, and could stomach the open sewer of GOP politics, I'd work for team R because it's so goddamn much easier.

Just find entertaining ways to appeal to the absolute worst in human nature, and you're golden.

Meanwhile team D can't even agree on basics like "vote against Republicans all the time every time". Everything is split up into specific issues, always with enough true-believing single-issue fucknuts ready and willing to amplify the inevitable GOP ratfucking to make things a shit show.

And since the GOP has become a landfill fire, everyone with any actual positions on policy tends to end up more or less on team D, so there's precious little agreement on policy. E.g., to pick a not so random example, there is a significant fraction of the Democratic party that views aid to Israel as untouchable, no matter what Israel does. IMO they are wrong, but it's not like we should (or even can) kick them out.

DrizztLink posted...

Oddly enough, DBZ Abridged covered it pretty well.

That's a banger line actually

legendary_zell posted...

In that circumstance, you can't expect yelling run alone to be effective. That's far closer to the circumstance we're in.

Unfortunately the people that love bombs will kill everyone, even the ones that aren't in the same building.

You can not reason with people that willingly burn their hands on the stove.

hockeybabe89 posted...

"I care about Gaza, so I'm gonna let Trump win and fuck them over harder. Also, fuck America and everyone in it. PS I care about everyone and want no one hurt."

"It's too late to save Gaza, but you can still vote to save me."

EPR-radar posted...

You left off the best part -- "I will broadcast my wonderful attitude online, and get all pissy when called out on it."

Defending my stance is getting pissy about it?

FortuneCookie posted...

"It's too late to save Gaza, but you can still vote to save me."

Damn now where have I heard that before?

Oh yeah.

You. In this topic. Your own perceived moral superiority.

EPR-radar posted...

This. If I wanted to make a career in political activism, and could stomach the open sewer of GOP politics, I'd work for team R because it's so goddamn much easier.

Just find entertaining ways to appeal to the absolute worst in human nature, and you're golden.

Meanwhile team D can't even agree on basics like "vote against Republicans all the time every time". Everything is split up into specific issues, always with enough true-believing single-issue fucknuts ready and willing to amplify the inevitable GOP ratfucking to make things a shit show.

And since the GOP has become a landfill fire, everyone with any actual positions on policy tends to end up more or less on team D, so there's precious little agreement on policy. E.g., to pick a not so random example, there is a significant fraction of the Democratic party that views aid to Israel as untouchable, no matter what Israel does. IMO they are wrong, but it's not like we should (or even can) kick them out.

the sad thing is I know liberals in real life who refused to vote for Hilary in 2016 because they were team bernie.

I too am team Bernie but even pleading with them to please vote against Trump they didnt give a fuck. Then they whined for 4 years after trump was elected like they didnt help that.

its infuriating.

FortuneCookie posted...

"It's too late to save Gaza, but you can still vote to save me."

Defending my stance is getting pissy about it?

defending your stance will cause more bloodshed then Biden ever will. Stay on that high horse.

FortuneCookie posted...

"It's too late to save Gaza, but you can still vote to save me."

dismissive wanking gesture

Cemith posted...

Unfortunately the people that love bombs will kill everyone, even the ones that aren't in the same building.

You can not reason with people that willingly burn their hands on the stove.

You can't keep infantilizing people like this if you want to convince them. I'm not even sure what your goal is here. Do you want to dunk on them and call them children? Or do you want to change their minds? Pick one and go with it.

I'm trying to get you to understand that most of the people who are reluctant aren't "willingly burning their hand on the stove", they think that their hand will be forced on the stove regardless of what they do. They tend to think decisions are made in the backrooms of power and aren't up for debate anyway. That it's downhill either way and that people are just yelling at them to choose their version of downhill that ends up in the same place. I know you don't think that, but understand that they genuinely genuinely do, it's not a bit, it's not something they do to spite you, they're not secret Republicans/fascists. People on all ends of the political spectrum reach that conclusion.

That's why fear and harm reduction messages don't work on them. They've already deadened themselves/been deadened to any possibility of anything better. They've given up on agency. The only thing that would change that is getting involved in a project to change that fundamental reality.

Yazarogi posted...

Thats the one thing I hate about being a liberal.

Our party is just a snake eating its own tail.

Meanwhile republicans are operating off a playbook, project 2025

Don't worry, they're eating their own tail too.

The local news can have as many as six political ads within a five minute stretch. All of them conservative ads. One individual says that he's an "Americans first" (i.e. "whites only") politician. The next ad is another Republican attacking the first one for being woke and supporting companies that approve of diversity. And they all flash pictures of themselves standing next to Trump like a bunch of kids having their picture taken with Santa Claus.

This election is a race to the bottom.

legendary_zell posted...

That's why fear and harm reduction messages don't work on them. They've already deadened themselves/been deadened to any possibility of anything better. They've given up on agency. The only thing that would change that is getting involved in a project to change that fundamental reality.

The fuck do you want us to do about that here?

DrizztLink posted...

The fuck do you want us to do about that here?

Basically, this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGEiK9StSfQ

DrizztLink posted...

The fuck do you want us to do about that here?

Nothing much, there's nothing you can do about it on CE. That's why I said to go outside and get involved in things that build democracy and can break people out of that attitude. Instead of spending inordinate amounts of time online telling people they're personally killing democracy and every LGBT person in America if they don't vote for Biden or by so much as saying they don't intend to vote for him.

Well I guess FortuneCookie doesn't want to continue the conversation so I guess we'll see what happens.

Chainsaw man kills the babies. Fortune's loved ones, and then Fortune. I choose not to shoot the Chainsaw man because my morals dictate "Thou shall not kill".

I'm a good person because I'm a pacifist.

...right?

The point I was trying to convey, is that sometimes you have to do things you don't enjoy out of necessity. To 'stick to your guns no matter what' isn't, in this context doesn't speak to your integrity.

It says "The lives of others are secondary to MY comfort".

It's crazy how politically illiterate some of these people are. Absolutely wild.

Umbreon posted...

Chainsaw man kills the babies. Fortune's loved ones, and then Fortune. I choose not to shoot the Chainsaw man because my morals dictate "Thou shall not kill".

I'm a good person because I'm a pacifist.

I am not a pacifist.

It's just that, whatever the consequences, I don't believe in strategies that result in the loss of innocent life. If talking about or confronting genocide strengthens the GOP, then it's the Democrats' responsibility to do something about it. I don't have a moral obligation to side with the lesser of two evils.

If you feel that's your responsibility, stick with your conviction. This is mine.

legendary_zell posted...

Nothing much, there's nothing you can do about it on CE. That's why I said to go outside and get involved in things that build democracy and can break people out of that attitude. Instead of spending inordinate amounts of time online telling people they're personally killing democracy and every LGBT person in America if they don't vote for Biden or by so much as saying they don't intend to vote for him.

Which brings us back to:

What makes you think people here aren't?

Other than you just deciding that.

FortuneCookie posted...

If you feel that's your responsibility, stick with your conviction. This is mine.

The corpses your convictions bring will think you're just so brave.

FortuneCookie posted...

I am not a pacifist.

It's just that, whatever the consequences, I don't believe in strategies that result in the loss of innocent life. If talking about or confronting genocide strengthens the GOP, then it's the Democrats' responsibility to do something about it. I don't have a moral obligation to side with the lesser of two evils.

If you feel that's your responsibility, stick with your conviction. This is mine.

Except your moral obligations are actually worse than those of us that will vote Biden because you stand by and do nothing while someone worse will be voted in, and then use that power to do even more evil things. Even for the people you're holding your moral obligations for.

FortuneCookie posted...

I am not a pacifist.

It's just that, whatever the consequences, I don't believe in strategies that result in the loss of innocent life. If talking about or confronting genocide strengthens the GOP, then it's the Democrats' responsibility to do something about it. I don't have a moral obligation to side with the lesser of two evils.

If you feel that's your responsibility, stick with your conviction. This is mine.

I just want to know what your response will be when Trump wins and tells Israel to indiscriminately kill everyone in Gaza. Or will you say "I didn't vote for that so my conscious is clear"? If that is what you'll say, then that's why I accused you of not actually caring about what's going on there. You just want to pretend you have a moral high ground.

Umbreon posted...

Well I guess FortuneCookie doesn't want to continue the conversation so I guess we'll see what happens.

Chainsaw man kills the babies. Fortune's loved ones, and then Fortune. I choose not to shoot the Chainsaw man because my morals dictate "Thou shall not kill".

I'm a good person because I'm a pacifist.

...right?

The point I was trying to convey, is that sometimes you have to do things you don't enjoy out of necessity. To 'stick to your guns no matter what' isn't, in this context doesn't speak to your integrity.

It says "The lives of others are secondary to MY comfort".

The thing is, your stance doesn't make sense. If you combined voting for Biden with using each and every means at your disposal to get him to stop arming and caping for Israel, that'd be a reasonable stance. By voting for Biden reflexively and without an attempt to push him in any meaningful sense and advocating for others to do so, that IS sacrificing the lives of Gazans and Palestinians for your comfort and the comfort of Americans. We know what the outcome of that will be, he's clearly not going to change without pressure, and things are currently on a course for genocide for Palestinians and safety for Americans. Yes, that's objectively better, but it's exactly what you're accusing him of.

One such method is threatening not to vote for him unless he changes his stance, seems to me that's one of the few things that could change his mind, one of our most powerful tools as individuals and as a collective. As long as you don't actually vote for Trump or sit out, it seems like that's the moral thing to do.

legendary_zell posted...

You can't keep infantilizing people like this if you want to convince them.

I'm not the person that's upset that Biden won't tickle their genitals about the one single issue that upsets them and not the literal dozens of other issues that he's helped out forward. Don't get it twisted. Remember -

Cemith posted...

any adult that doesn't already understand the immense consequences of Republicans winning another election right now is not someone that acts on good faith, or could be relied on to make the right decision when the time comes.

No one should need convincing. It is self evident just how fucking awful and miserable this country would be with another Trump candidacy.

Although I appreciate Umbreons more careful approach, I'm sick of abstainers claiming that they both understand how much worse Trump is but also that they still can't vote for Biden. That isn't something that can be squared with reason. It is selfish moral grandstanding. It is vain and disgusting.

I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. What I want is for people like Cookie and BM to see their gross, incongruous stance in a mirror and reflect that they are culpable, even indirectly, by abstaining.

"But Umbreon, I don't like how Biden is handling the war!"

Shit, you think I do? You think anyone in this topic wants this war? The thing I like even less though is Republicans wanting to turn Gaza into a parking lot. Trump will happily and actively facilitate genocide. He's a madman who worship other genocidal dictators.

Biden? We can reason with Biden?

Third option? That shit ain't happening, not unless both candidates drop dead before November and we're not even entertaining that scenario because FBI agents are already side eyeing this post.

"But people will die"

Yeah, and it's fucking bullshit.

Chooing everyone to die over less people dying makes no fucking sense though. No fucking sense.

Yazarogi posted...

It's crazy how politically illiterate some of these people are. Absolutely wild.

Hot take: voting being allowed for everyone is a mistake, and the biggest flaw of democracy, especially in the current age.

DrizztLink posted...

Which brings us back to:

What makes you think people here aren't?

Other than you just deciding that.

If you do personally, that's good, keep doing that, I commend you and I'll try do the same. I'm talking to the people who simply say "vote" in response to every question and who think the exclusive/sufficient condition for victory is a Democratic Supermajority that's somehow supposed to appear because reasons. As if that's possible or would even be effective under current conditions.

We see that the people who just vote or simply tell others to vote are not doing the other things that need to be done. If even a quarter did, our democratic institutions would be immeasurably stronger and you wouldn't have to spend time failing to convince people to vote.

CyborgSage00x0 posted...

Hot take: voting being allowed for everyone is a mistake, and the biggest flaw of democracy, especially in the current age.

that is a hot take, this whole thing with these people would be alleviated with ranked choice voting. But that makes to much sense.

Cemith posted...

I'm not the person that's upset that Biden won't tickle their genitals about the one single issue that upsets them and not the literal dozens of other issues that he's helped out forward. Don't get it twisted. Remember -

No one should need convincing. It is self evident just how fucking awful and miserable this country would be with another Trump candidacy.

Although I appreciate Umbreons more careful approach, I'm sick of abstainers claiming that they both understand how much worse Trump is but also that they still can't vote for Biden. That isn't something that can be squared with reason. It is selfish moral grandstanding. It is vain and disgusting.

I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. What I want is for people like Cookie and BM to see their gross, incongruous stance in a mirror and reflect that they are culpable, even indirectly, by abstaining.

It's disgusting for you to present not facilitating a genocide as tickling our balls as if that's some frivolous, unreasonable, wishlist request. It's the bare fucking minimum for a decent human being! You can never ever deal with the reality of what's going on head on because then you'd be forced to reckon with the moral abhorrence of everything going on and what you're really asking of people.

You clearly just want to vent at your political and cultural inferiors, go ahead. But don't think you're fighting for freedom/democracy by doing so. You're not going to see anything and they're not going to see anything. And we're all going to pay for that, potentially.

Yazarogi posted...

Except your moral obligations are actually worse than those of us that will vote Biden because you stand by and do nothing while someone worse will be voted in, and then use that power to do even more evil things. Even for the people you're holding your moral obligations for.

I'm not parading around on a white horse telling others what they should do. My conscience won't let me vote for someone who stands in support of genocide. Everyone has to act according to their own convictions.

legendary_zell posted...

One such method is threatening not to vote for him unless he changes his stance, seems to me that's one of the few things that could change his mind, one of our most powerful tools as individuals and as a collective. As long as you don't actually vote for Trump or sit out, it seems like that's the moral thing to do.

I would absolutely vote for Biden again if he changed his stance. I'm not anti-Israel or anti-Palestine. I'm anti-Netanyahu and anti-genocide.

Yazarogi posted...

that is a hot take, this whole thing with these people would be alleviated with ranked choice voting. But that makes to much sense.

Ranked voting would be nice.

legendary_zell posted...

It's disgusting for you to present not facilitating a genocide as tickling our balls as if that's some frivolous, unreasonable, wishlist request.

No one is preventing a genocide by abstaining, I'll fucking tell you that much. If anyone claims to abstain because they care about Gaza, they are fucking lying to themselves. They don't give a fuck about Gaza. Why would they? They can't be fucked to do the absolute bare minimum to prevent similar atrocities happening domestically. You expect me to believe that they care about Palestinians overseas? Give me a fucking break. I can claim I hate illegal dogfighting till I'm blue in the face, but saying that while I'm actively breeding and abusing dogs kinda muddies the message, don't you think?

But please do tell me how Trump winning is so much better for the people that feel for Gaza.

Please.

I'm fucking begging you.

legendary_zell posted...

You clearly just want to vent at your political and cultural inferiors, go ahead. But don't think you're fighting for freedom/democracy by doing so.

I'm going to vote against Trump for the sake of democracy. Not something some on this forum can say.

legendary_zell posted...

You can never ever deal with the reality of what's going on head on because then you'd be forced to reckon with the moral abhorrence of everything going on and what you're really asking of people.

Here's the rub. The election is a binary. One side will win. One side will lose. If you facilitate the loss to fascism, you are just as culpable as those Maga psychopaths. I'm sorry you needed Big Uncle Cemith to tell you the reality of the US Election System, but here it is.

They won't answer that question, they'll sidestep and say we're "telling them what to do"

At the end of the day it's their choice. No matter how wrong it is, or how selfish they actually are.

Cemith posted...

No one is preventing a genocide by abstaining, I'll fucking tell you that much. If anyone claims to abstain because they care about Gaza, they are fucking lying to themselves. They don't give a fuck about Gaza. Why would they? They can't be fucked to do the absolute bare minimum to prevent similar atrocities happening domestically. You expect me to believe that they care about Palestinians overseas? Give me a fucking break. I can claim I hate illegal dogfighting till I'm blue in the face, but saying that while I'm actively breeding and abusing dogs kinda muddies the message, don't you think?

I don't advocate abstaining. I've made that clear in every topic. But the irreducible truth is that some people are not going to leave their home, hop in their car and pull the lever for someone currently facilitating a genocide in November. You must grapple with that reality and your current approach won't change it. The exact problem that blackpills people is that there's no option not to facilitate a genocide. That's not a system that inspires participation.

You're gonna have to tell my Jewish and Palestinian friends who are organizing relief efforts, trying to evacuate family, and organizing protests across the US to pressure the government and other institutions that they actually don't care about Gaza because they don't feel comfortable voting for the guy supplying the bombs killing their family. They'll be surprised to hear that they don't care and that what they're doing is equivalent to breeding fighting dogs!

But please do tell me how Trump winning is so much better for the people that feel for Gaza.

No one has said this. Trump would be worse. That's why some of us are doing everything we can to stop Biden from doing anything that could make him lose and others are trying to shout those people down and get Biden to just bulldoze through and hope for the best.

Please.

I'm fucking begging you.

I'm going to vote against Trump for the sake of democracy. Not something some on this forum can say.

Here's the rub. The election is a binary. One side will win. One side will lose. If you facilitate the loss to fascism, you are just as culpable as those Maga psychopaths. I'm sorry you needed Big Uncle Cemith to tell you the reality of the US Election System, but here it is.

Smugness seems to be far more important to you than anything else. Biden will be responsible for blackpilling his own base if it comes to that. But I don't think that's actually what will happen. I think Biden will squeak by due to the collapse of Republican infrastructure and approval and the genocide will continue and that's nothing to be proud of, even if it's better for us.