Current Events > Fluent Japanese speakers who have also watched Shogun, a question (no spoilers)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Are they speaking what I assume would be modern Japanese? Or are they speaking what might be an older form of japanese (e.g. in older English, one might say "thou" in place of "you")?

It's japanese of the period, more formal and longer winded

they are speaking modern.

also, to be clear, changing a few words isn't "old english"

this is old english:

Hwt. We Gardena in geardagum,
eodcyninga, rym gefrunon,
hu a elingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaena reatum,
monegum mgum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syan rest wear
feasceaft funden, he s frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weormyndum ah,
ot him ghwylc ara ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan. t ws god cyning.

Then there is middle english:

Whan that Aprille with his shoures soote,
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licur
Of which vert engendred is the flour;
Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours y-ronne,
And smale foweles maken melodye,
That slepen al the nyght with open ye,
So priketh hem Natre in hir corages,
Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages,

then there is just changing a few words, like thou and thine, and that's just modern english with a few old words.

being formal and longwinded does not mean they are speaking medieval japanese. they are not speaking medieval japanese.

Yeah in the description of the show it says its specifically a period of that time in all ways and the actors constantly refer to it that way in interviews.

https://screenrant.com/shogun-show-period-language-different-explained/

it's not historically-accurate speech of the time, even if they use some phrases from the time period and strange old-timey ways of says some things.

it'd be like a fantasy show where everyone said "Good day!" instead of "Hello!" And instead of "bank" we say "Coinage vault" or w/e. that doesn't mean im speaking a new language.

"Sensei, I am studying Bushido so diligently."

"Ah, you bring great honor to your daimyo."

Robot2600 posted...

they are speaking modern.

also, to be clear, changing a few words isn't "old english"

this is old english:

Hwt. We Gardena in geardagum,
eodcyninga, rym gefrunon,
hu a elingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaena reatum,
monegum mgum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syan rest wear
feasceaft funden, he s frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weormyndum ah,
ot him ghwylc ara ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan. t ws god cyning.

Then there is middle english:

Whan that Aprille with his shoures soote,
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licur
Of which vert engendred is the flour;
Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours y-ronne,
And smale foweles maken melodye,
That slepen al the nyght with open ye,
So priketh hem Natre in hir corages,
Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages,

then there is just changing a few words, like thou and thine, and that's just modern english with a few old words.

Did not know that. Thanks!

Robot2600 posted...

it's not historically-accurate speech of the time, even if they use some phrases from the time period and strange old-timey ways of says some things.

it'd be like a fantasy show where everyone said "Good day!" instead of "Hello!" And instead of "bank" we say "Coinage vault" or w/e. that doesn't mean im speaking a new language. speaking in a british accent is not speaking in a new language.

I see. So if I'm putting everything together, them being longwinded and formal (post 2) makes it sound a bit more old-timey, but it actually isnt. They're using Japanese words, just in a different way, vs using what would be actual "old-Japanese".

Appreciate it yall!

I would describe it as , Jidaigeki speak. It's like the fake old English as some posters have said. It's sort of this standardized way to pretend you are speaking old Japanese. It isn't always used on period pieces, but most of the time it is. It is much, much, much more similar to modern Japanese than the actual language spoken at the time.

Just to add onto other people's comments. It's not just words (like for instance not using modern loanwords and using more native Japanese words instead of Chinese-style Japanese words formed in the 1800s [using matsurigoto instead of seifu for government]), but much more so grammar. They like to use a fake old school Japanese grammar style, especially for verb conjugations. It's also not accurate to the actual style of the time, but it's the single most noticable aspect and what you mimic if you want to pretend to speak like that for comedy or role-playing.

I assume every language has fake "old" form they use in media to represent old speak but have it still understandable by audiences and able to be pronounced by actors.

Just to emphasize how different it is. Often when reading pieces from the time a modern translation is needed to understand it. This is not needed in shows set during the time because they speak modern Japanese for the most part.

Here is an example text from Tokugawa Ieyasu (the guy Toranaga is based on):

Original text:




Modern translation:

ssjevot posted...

I would describe it as , Jidaigeki speak. It's like the fake old English as some posters have said. It's sort of this standardized way to pretend you are speaking old Japanese. It isn't always used on period pieces, but most of the time it is. It is much, much, much more similar to modern Japanese than the actual language spoken at the time.

Just to add onto other people's comments. It's not just words (like for instance not using modern loanwords and using more native Japanese words instead of Chinese-style Japanese words formed in the 1800s [using matsurigoto instead of seifu for government]), but much more so grammar. They like to use a fake old school Japanese grammar style, especially for verb conjugations. It's also not accurate to the actual style of the time, but it's the single most noticable aspect and what you mimic if you want to pretend to speak like that for comedy or role-playing.

Is the way they're saying "Understood" or "I understand" one of these things? I thought it was "Wakarimashita" but I keep hearing something different whenever our british friend says it and when he was taught to say it. Same with the Gozaimasu honorific (Is that considered an honorific?).

Wondering if these are just a different modern way of saying it, or one of these "old-timey" ways that has been described. Or something else.

DoGCyN posted...

Wakarimas***a

lol at censoring if you have it turned on

I can't imagine there are a ton of people fluent in feudal era Japanese out there that are also actors.

DoGCyN posted...

Is the way they're saying "Understood" or "I understand" one of these things? I thought it was "Wakarimashita" but I keep hearing something different whenever our british friend says it and when he was taught to say it. Same with the Gozaimasu honorific (Is that considered an honorific?).

Wondering if these are just a different modern way of saying it, or one of these "old-timey" ways that has been described. Or something else.

Not really. Things like , and are still used in modern Japanese, just not as often. The biggest one would be the negatives ending in instead of (there was no nn sound in Japanese, it entered to transcribe Chinese loanwords, over time some Japanese words that had n sounds like also started being pronounced as , but it's way more extensive than what these types of shows have where it's only done on negative verbs).