Board 8 > Board 8 Watches and Ranks Art Films: The Results

(+) Yeah! (+)

Absolute boo to that elimination and justification.

Evillordexdeath posted...

Let me just express how glad I am personally that neither of these last two drops won.

Were you shaking like a shitting dog?

shit I missed my chance to change my guess

Evillordexdeath posted...

Let me just express how glad I am personally that neither of these last two drops won. I think the sentiment Johnbobb expressed about the idea of Kane winning is how I would've felt if I put together this list of classics just for one of these two fuckin' movies to take the top spot. Seginus helped me keep them both out of the top 5 which has resulted in the outlier scoreboard you see here.

bad
terrible
shame

I can see not being blown away by Grand Budapest (even though it is to date one of the first movies I even associate with the word "cinematography") but Pan's Labyrinth is a masterpiece

I'm a fan of Pan's Labyrinth and a hater of The Grand Budapest Hotel, but I can agree with the sentiment of not wanting either to top an art film ranking. Still, last place seems... extreme!

I'm doing my part! I mean I generally like Pan's Labyrinth and Grand Budapest but no way am I gonna have them topping a list like this

Rooting for Ikiru at this point.

I still have my #3 and #5 in; I'd be ecstatic to have my #3 win (though I doubt it will) and happy with my #5 (which I could see happening)

past that I've got 11, 13 and 14

No one heeds the boy who cried Wes, but Karo gets a point by staying on Grand Budapest from last round.

Scoreboard
1. Karo: 9 (The Holy Mountain, Jeanne Dielman, Tokyo Story, The Passion of Joan of Arc, The Battle of Algiers, Eraserhead, Aguirre, Synecdoche, The Grand Budapest Hotel)
2. Johnbobb: 8 (Ordet, The Holy Mountain, Tokyo Story, Persona, The Passion of Joan of Arc, Eraserhead, Aguirre, Synecdoche)
3. PunishedJeezy: 6 (The Conformist, The Holy Mountain, Jeanne Dielman, The Passion of Joan of Arc, Eraserhead, Synecdoche)
4. Inviso: 3 (The Holy Mountain, The Battle of Algiers, Eraserhead)
5. Seginus: 2 (Persona, The Battle of Algiers)
6. LightningStrikes: 1 (The Holy Mountain)

Current guesses:
sergiocornaga: Amlie
Seginus: Amlie
Inviso: Amlie
PunishedJeezy: Amlie
Johnbobb: Amlie

Next up: The loser of the list's last tiebreaker

5. Portrait of a Lady on Fire
Originally released as Portrait de la jeune fille en feu, 2019, France
Director: Cline Sciamma

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/d/d99be2a3.jpg
Perhaps he makes a choice. He chooses the memory of her. Thats why he turns. He doesnt make the lovers choice, but the poets.

Rankings:

Karo: 1
Seginus: 9
Exdeath: 12
Johnbobb: 14
Inviso: 20
Total: 56 (tiebreaker score: 21)

Karo:

A female artist is sent to commission the portrait of a bride to be, only to discover that her subject's reluctance to be painted stems from her distaste towards the idea of marriage. As no painter can finish her portrait, her husband-to-be has no way of knowing that she has all the requisite number of eyes and noses and thus cannot give his approval of the marriage.
Thus she begins to surreptitiously paint the young woman without her knowledge, and our story begins. What starts as insincere trickery turns to friendship. That friendship soon turns to romance. But such a pairing sadly cannot be in world where love takes a backseat to propriety and the female is naught be a commodity to be traded away for political clout.
The beauty of their relationship is juxtaposed with cruelty of a society that cannot accept their feelings, and although they cannot be together they forever left a little piece of themselves behind on that remote island.
I could truly feel what the characters are feeling, both their deep love and their deep pain. This is how you write a romance, and this is how you make a movie.
Simply wonderful.

Seginus:

Fawlessly executed, a high benchmark for forbidden romance period dramas. Each scene is considerately measured and choreographed, every shot designed as a moving painting, it packs so much tension beneath the surface without descending to cheap melodrama. The leads chemistry leaps off the screen, I know this is partly the male gaze talking (these ladies are unfairly gorgeous) but its one of the best romances Ive seen in a movie.

For a period piece, I love the decision to have no incidental music whatsoever. This really helps transport the viewer to back there was no recorded music, no proverbial soundtrack to our lives running in the background. Music was rare and ephemeral. For most of the runtime, the soundtrack emphasizes waves on the shore and brushes on canvas and consequently, the three scenes of diegetic music (which develop in intensity - harpsichord, choir, orchestra) are charged with significance and potency. When we see Heloise overwhelmed at the end, its not just because Vivaldi reminds of her Marianne, its also that shes never heard an orchestra before.

One teeny little nitpick is that sometimes I think the digital photography fudges the shadows in the darker scenes, and I cant help but wonder how it would look if it were shot on film. I only say this because I saw it in theaters and have the 4k blu-ray, its not a streaming quality thing. But its so minor, most of the movie is in bright daylight and looks immaculate anyways.

Exdeath:

Often considered one of the greatest films of this century so far, Cline Sciamma's period piece drama mostly carries itself through the excellent performances and richly realized characters, but the big narrative tricks are the metaphor of Orpheus and Eurydice introduced around halfway and an interesting framing device years after the main events, which is the only place where we actually see the titular painting. Marianne raises the notion that Orpheus might have looked back at Eurydice to choose the memory of her over her living self, which sets up the girls' final encounter where Heloise in her white wedding dress commands her to take one last look back at her, but perhaps moreso it foreshadows the ending where Heloise is so enraptured by the Vivaldi concerto Marianne told her about that she doesn't notice Marianne herself is in the room watching her.

For me, given how acclaimed this film is I was a little surprised how straight of a period piece/drama it was. I found myself wishing for a little more art film je ne sais quoi, like a Holy Mountain "this is a film" ending or some Mirror-style crazy nonlinear editing - or at least a Beau Travail dance scene. Without that I almost feel lost trying to provide a better writeup, all I can think to say is that I liked it and found it emotionally resonant but I don't know that I would call it one of the greatest films of all time.

Johnbobb:

wait I thought I already watched The Passion of Joan of Arc! a lot of portrait, a lot of lady, and a decent amount of fire. gotta appreciate a movie that delivers on its promises. it's a lot like killer klowns from outer space in that way.

Favorite line from a 1/2 star Letterboxd review:
It's actually a landscape of a lady on fire

Inviso:

On the one hand, I do grasp the concept behind this movie. Everything about it is about the life of a woman in a certain era of history: namely how women were conditioned at that time to be seen and not heard. It almost feels like a womens story in which the characters themselves are aware in-universe that its a womens story. There are effectively three major female characters, and a fourth who pops in and out from time to time. Ironically enough, the only times we see men during the course of the film are at the beginning (dropping our protagonist off at this remote mansion which is meant to represent a form of liberation) and then towards the end when the protagonist arrives in the dining hall to find a man waiting to collect her painting for transporteffectively jolting her back to the real world, where she and her (at that point) lover are side characters in the story of a mans world.

I say all of that with the understanding that this film seems to be a form of empowerment. Marianne wants to be respected for her work, but as were shown by her painting of Orpheus/Eurydice at the end, she still has to paint under the name of a male painter. Heloise doesnt want to just get married off to some guy she doesnt know, all because her sister died and SOMEONE has to take her place. And Sophie is all about women in the working class, complete with her obtaining of an abortion. These three women are the main characters of the film, bonding with one another and feeling that level of liberation until everything returns to the status quo at the end. In that regard, the movie has some important things to say about sisterhood and lesbian romance.

With that out of the way though, I didnt enjoy this. I found it extremely slow and extremely boring, and the problem with slow and boring is that when you are going for a metaphor (Orpheus & Eurydice is being relayed to the trio around the middle of the movie, and afterwards there are images of Marianne refusing to look back at Heloise in a wedding dress, lest she lose her forever, culminating in Heloise FORCING Marianne to look back before she departs). Thats a good metaphor, except the Orpheus & Eurydice stuff comes way too late in the film and doesnt feel like a running themeand its so bogged down by slow pacing that I didnt even notice the imagery until the films essentially says it out loud in the art gallery during the ending. It's just SO slow and subtle that it drags and doesnt do enough to truly make me invested in the film overall.

Outlier:

Seginus: 195
Exdeath: 187
Inviso: 179
Johnbobb: 162
Karo: 148

Here's a portrait of some male outliers

Only top tenners remain for me.

While I forgot to update the scoreboard to reflect this, Inviso did switch to Portrait after the Grand Budapest hint

Scoreboard
1. Karo: 9 (The Holy Mountain, Jeanne Dielman, Tokyo Story, The Passion of Joan of Arc, The Battle of Algiers, Eraserhead, Aguirre, Synecdoche, The Grand Budapest Hotel)
2. Johnbobb: 8 (Ordet, The Holy Mountain, Tokyo Story, Persona, The Passion of Joan of Arc, Eraserhead, Aguirre, Synecdoche)
3. PunishedJeezy: 6 (The Conformist, The Holy Mountain, Jeanne Dielman, The Passion of Joan of Arc, Eraserhead, Synecdoche)
4. Inviso: 4 (The Holy Mountain, The Battle of Algiers, Eraserhead, Portrait of a Lady on Fire)
5. Seginus: 2 (Persona, The Battle of Algiers)
6. LightningStrikes: 1 (The Holy Mountain)

Current guesses:
sergiocornaga: Amlie
Seginus: Amlie
Inviso: Amlie
PunishedJeezy: Amlie
Johnbobb: Amlie

Next up: An elimination I bet no one will see coming.

Guessing Citizen Kane

I can't believe Amelie is the top French film, fuckin' sacre bleu guys

Guessing Amelie again.

4. Amlie
Originally released as Le Fabuleux Destin d'Amlie Poulain, 2001, France
Director: Jean-Pierre Jeunet

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/3/3430b00a.jpg
If Amlie chooses to live in a dream-world and remain an introverted young woman, she has every right to mess up her life! Missing one's life is a national right!

Rankings:

Johnbobb: 3
Karo: 4
Exdeath: 10
Inviso: 10
Seginus: 29
Total: 56 (tiebreaker score 32)

Johnbobb:

Amelie may just be the cutest movie ever made. It's interesting watching this one so soon after rewatching Eraserhead; both are movies where sex is a major theme, but neither movie is ever portrayed as a particularly sexual movie. In Amelie, there are sex scenes, there's nudity, there are dirty jokes, one of the main romantic leads even works in a sex shop. And yet the movie never portrays these things, or Amelie herself, as overtly desireable. They're just silly, fanciful parts of what makes life interesting. That perspective of life is a big part of what really draws me to Amelie (the movie, not the woman, but okay also kind of the woman). It has a view of life as something with infinite possibilities to be explored, physically (via the traveling gnome), emotionally (through various complicated relationships), intellectually (through the puzzle of the torn pictures) and artistically (through the recreation of a painting in an attempt to recapture something the painting captured beneath the surface). It's a smartly crafted movie that seems to want to avoid seeming smart. I plan to run a magical realism list sometime down the line, and the plan was always to include Amelie there, but I'm happy we had the chance to watch it earlier because it's just an absolute joy.

Favorite line from a 1/2 star Letterboxd review:
Is this feminism? I cant tell its in Spanish

Karo:

A strange and lonely French girl with a penchant for surreptitiously helping other people goes throughout her odd life, eventually falling in love herself.
After much delightfully awkward flirting with her object of affection via scavenger hunt and some weird photobooth detective work they finally get together and it is precious.
I just.. adore this so much. From the quirky tone to Amelie herself and the wonderful way she sees the world and all who live in it... it just males me feel good.
It is a joy to watch from start to finish, and proves that yes, there are actually French movies out there that end happily. Who knew?

Exdeath:

A fun little movie about learning to face the fears and hardships that you must face in order to live a worthwhile life. I hope people don't take the message that you should act like Amlie in real life, and I probably wouldn't want to date her if I were the main guy and she started our relationship with all these schenanigans, but as drama it works well. There are so many creative film devices to appreciate in this movie. I especially liked the scene where Amlie cuts up old letters to make a fake profession of love from her concierge's ex and the narration of the letter is also spliced together from different voice clips. It really flows fast and feels like a fun, concise love story even though it gets up toward 2 hours.

Inviso:

I like this movie a lot more in concept than perhaps I do in execution. I like the idea of a quirky girl who works in a coffee shop, who observes the same group of people day after day, going out of her way to change their lives for the better (or worse, in the case of one douchebag). And watching her execute these scarily-complex plans to force personal growth was interesting to me, especially because were introduced to all of these characters early on in the movie and then get to see how their various quirks all play off one another. This, in turn, makes Amelie more interesting, because theres an underlying theme of her meddling to help other people, while being too introverted to better her own life (and perhaps viewing her aid to others as bettering her life in and of itself).

The main thing that holds this movie back for me though (and its still going to end up pretty high with only five movies left to watch) is that the central romantic plot isnot great. Like, Amelies shenanigans are fun when you see her playing these characters off one another, but the quirkiness and whimsy just get to be too much when shes planning these elaborate schemes to flirt with a guy that shes too shy to talk to in person. It just wasnt my cup of tea, and a relationship based entirely off of whimsy is one that makes me feel less inclined to care about the couple themselves. Nino just feels like such a listless guy, and hes like a diet version of Amelies quirkiness. Im sure they work well together, but not enough to carry the film to a top tier placement.

Seginus:

I really wanted to like Amelie, and for about thirty minutes I truly did. After thirty more minutes I felt I had taken a toxic dose of the whimsy, and by the end I couldnt like Amelie anymore. The mystery man plot kept me guessing for a while, but ended up being window dressing for an increasingly vapid meet cute that seemed operate as though true love is born of the cutest meet. Fairytale rules, to be sure, signaled by everything from the storybook narrator to the animated furniture gossiping about the reclusive princess love life, but I found it all corny and superficial. The critic and the hypochondriac had a more believable romance, and that was just for a laugh.

I enjoyed Yann Tiersens score, solo piano can often be overbearing but it worked well here. There were some creative shots and clever-looking sequences (I particularly enjoyed the transit where Amelie zooms up the escalator, as well as the talking portrait bit with the photobooth headshots) but its hampered by an obnoxious degree of visual clutter, canted angles, hazy filters and that sickly matrix greencoloration that aged so quickly. In some ways its the worst-looking film on the list, even with the exception of the unfortunate CGI.

I do like the message about taking joy in the little things, I just think it goes overboard with it. Two scenes exemplify how I feel about this. One is the roll call with the characters likes/dislikes: I love the evocative textural details like cracking creme brulee with a spoon or popping bubble wrap. Noticing details in movies is one of Amelies likes, to which she points out a fly in an old movie scene, and of course her own movie opens by detailing a fly. I dig that. But then it hammers this bit so many times in a row without letting it breathe, it turns into a stimulus overload. The other scene is the one with the blind guy she leads for a minute. Again, I love the emphasis on heigtening your senses, noticing more of the world around you, the joie de vivre thing. But the way she goes about it, yoinking the guy and spamming detail at him rapid-fire, just seems like it would leave the guy flustered instead of illuminated at the end. And thats the whole the movie, its all smelling the roses but no stopping. Slow down, Amelie!

Outlier:

Seginus: 220
Exdeath: 193
Inviso: 185
Johnbobb: 163
Karo: 148

Amlie making it this far with a 29th place weighing it down is quite remarkable, and it ensures that Seginus absolutely rakes in the outlier points here.

oh so the hint was sarcasm

switch guess to Harakiri

Seginus why are you doing this to me

Guessing Ikiru

I'm gonna guess Citizen Kane.

There was no need to watch all these when Seginus basically voted for me

and lol the non-art film is going to win

Woo, my first point. Citizen Kane, could you be next?

Despite my attempt to distract people, almost everyone correctly guesses Amlie

Scoreboard
1. Karo: 9 (The Holy Mountain, Jeanne Dielman, Tokyo Story, The Passion of Joan of Arc, The Battle of Algiers, Eraserhead, Aguirre, Synecdoche, The Grand Budapest Hotel)
1. Johnbobb: 9 (Ordet, The Holy Mountain, Tokyo Story, Persona, The Passion of Joan of Arc, Eraserhead, Aguirre, Synecdoche, Amlie)
2. PunishedJeezy: 7 (The Conformist, The Holy Mountain, Jeanne Dielman, The Passion of Joan of Arc, Eraserhead, Synecdoche, Amlie)
3. Inviso: 5 (The Holy Mountain, The Battle of Algiers, Eraserhead, Portrait of a Lady on Fire, Amlie)
4. Seginus: 3 (Persona, The Battle of Algiers, Amlie)
5. LightningStrikes: 1 (The Holy Mountain)
5. Sergiocornaga: 1 (Amlie)

Current guesses:
sergiocornaga: Citizen Kane
Inviso: Citizen Kane
Johnbobb: Ikiru
Karo: Harakiri

Next up: No more hints, just give it your best guess.

Alright it's gonna be Citizen Kane, Ikiru, and then Harakiri wins the weebstakes

I'll guess Citizen Kane

3. Citizen Kane
1941, United States
Director: Orson Welles

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/c/c2f1b810.jpg
"You're right, I did lose a million dollars last year. I expect to lose a million dollars this year. I expect to lose a million dollars *next* year. You know, Mr. Thatcher, at the rate of a million dollars a year, I'll have to close this place in... sixty years."

Rankings:

Inviso: 2
Seginus: 3
Karo: 9
Exdeath: 13
Johnbobb: 13
Total: 40

Inviso:

For most of my life, Ive heard bandied about the fact that Citizen Kane is the greatest film ever made. And given my track record with artsy films that appeal to cinemaphiles, I was a bit worried going into this watchthrough. I was expecting to find something overrated, much like what I found with The Shining in our 80s horror ranking. Imagine my surprise when Citizen Kane legitimately lives up to the hype. This is the kind of movie I point to when give my personal opinion that plot and narrative should be paramount when it comes to making a film. And its only when youve mastered that, that you can then add all of the film-making tricks and cinematographic dressings to make something good into something great.

The general structure of the film is great: you start out with an old-timey news reel detailing the basic outline of Charles Foster Kanes life as a media mogul and all-around rich person. But surely there must be more to the man than thatand whats with his cryptic last word: Rosebud. For the rest of the film, were given a narrative structure where we get to experience Kanes life through the eyes of those who were closest to himbut perhaps not all that close to him at all, because none of them could provide answers to that lingering question either. Were treated to the rise of this charismatic icon who wants what he cant have and goes for it anyway, and then everything comes crashing down, bit by bit, until hes all alone at the end.

Narratively, I love the theming of how this is a man who has everything a person could possibly wantyet its never good enough for him. All of the money and fame in the world dont make him happy. And the ending revelation about (spoilers for an 83-year-old movie that has been discussed as one of the best films ever for AGES) his childhood sled is all the more impactful when you realize that it hasnt been relevant to the story since pretty much the very first flashback about him getting taken under Thatchers wing. Yet, you think back to that scene, and Kane playing in the snow with his sled while everyone else makes decisions for him and chooses his life for himthats the last moment of true happiness he has during the movie. Sure, hes happy other timesbut thats in service of WANTING something. Noit stands out that childlike whimsy is sometimes the only thing that matters when youre on your deathbed.

Also, major shoutouts to the make-up team, because the aging of Susan, Bernstein, and Kane over the course of the film looks REALLY good. Now granted, by the end of the movie, Kane is a balding, grumpy old manbut the transition over the course of the movie is what makes the make-up stand out. And the camera shots of Kane so distanced from the women he claims to love (first with his first wife at the dinner table, then with his second wife in their otherwise empty palace)it shows so much about how detached from normal life his wealth has made him. Finally, big fuck you to Jim Gettys. Fucking scumbag. Kane wouldve had you locked up and you fucking know it. GREAT movie. Lives up to the hype for sure.

Seginus:

A densely layered examination of American excess and megalomania. This time I was caught by how relevant the hoarder story is, this guy starts off being a man of the people but is slowly consumed by collecting items until he only cares about items, up to his final moments clutching one toy and thinking of another. It used to make me sad just because the snowglobe/sled represent his childhood and lost innocence, but this time I was focused more on how he doesnt say something like mama, I was just a boy, he thinks of the brand name of the sled. Possibly his first possession. And the real tragedy is that in the end, his possessions are all that he can find meaning in.

No need to regurgitate its technical achievements, Ill just say if anyone hasnt listened to the Roger Ebert commentary track he does a full deep-dive on that side of it, its worth checking out.

Karo:

This is sort of presented as a real biography of a fictional person, where the life and times of a newspaper mogul is chronicled with unflinching and tragic honesty.
Orson Welles here begins his life's work of making vintage cinema not dull and sucky, and his genius is evident in the advent-garde camerawork and some very unusual lighting that somehow is awesome.
Unlike many really old movies, this one still feels relevant to the era we live in. I mean, I laughed when I saw the two prepared newspaper variations were like 'Kane Wins!' and 'Election Fraud!'. Getting a bit too real there.
Of course I would be remiss to not speak of the amazing ending, which may well be a top ten ending in all of cinema. We have just finished with our internal judging of Kane as an irredeemable selfish prick, when the identity of 'Rosebud' is revealed.
It turns out the thing that he has lost, the one thing all his money and influence couldn't buy him, was simply the joy and happiness of his childhood. It is a profound examination of materialism and what it really means to be happy, and leaves us with a conflicted view of Kane as a person that elevates him beyond simply a mere character in a motion picture. Simply superb.

Exdeath:

So I wobbled a bit on whether or not to include Citizen Kane. In the end, it's really not that much of an art film, but I felt it would've been a big omission because of its reputation as The Greatest Film of All Time (though of course that honour has passed to a certain other film on the list...) Plus including it was a nice way to make the list a little more accessible, because I think that reptuation makes a pretty fun and straightforward movie seem a lot more intimidating than it really is. At its core this is the straightforward tale of the rise and fall of, as one character puts it, A Big American, and all the control and backstabbing and ruthlessness he uses to try and make himself into an icon. You could write forever about the different film techniques, the giant sets, particularly Kane's decaying palace at Xanadu with its priceless art still boxed away in crates, the impressive special effects used to age the characters, the great performances, the interesting narrative structure where a journalist tries - and fails - to grasp the big picture of Kane's life after the fact, or minute techniques like how the crew sawed through the floor to achieve the low angle shot when Kane and Jed confront each other after the election. On a casual viewing though, these are all details that do their jobs so well that they pass by the viewer without calling attention to themselves, and you don't need to analyze them to enjoy how well presented this story is or how complex it makes the figure of Kane, who shows so many different sides through the tales told of him.

Johnbobb:

This is my third time watching Citizen Kane and frankly I don't know what else I'm supposed to say about the most talked about movie in history. It's very good.

Favorite line from a 1/2 star Letterboxd review:
12 minutes in, and I'm out. Life is already boring enough to watch Citizen Lame.
more like citizen LAME, fight me
more like citizen lame
more like shitizen lame
more like citizen LAME
citizen kane pshh more like citizen lame
Ughhhh citizen Kane more like citizen LAME
Citizen Kane more like Shitizen Lame
citizen lame
Orson Welles is citizen lame
I Citizen Kane't wait for it to be over

Outlier:

Seginus: 220
Exdeath: 203
Inviso: 186
Johnbobb: 173
Karo: 154

Aw MAN. Probably fair since it's not really an art film, but it's damn good.

https://youtu.be/urxx386W6Oc?t=33

Evillordexdeath posted...

12 minutes in, and I'm out. Life is already boring enough to watch Citizen Lame.
more like citizen LAME, fight me
more like citizen lame
more like s***izen lame
more like citizen LAME
citizen kane pshh more like citizen lame
Ughhhh citizen Kane more like citizen LAME
Citizen Kane more like s***izen Lame
citizen lame
Orson Welles is citizen lame
I Citizen Kane't wait for it to be over

wow we need Orson's response to this diss track

Favorite line from a 1/2 star Letterboxd review:
12 minutes in, and I'm out. Life is already boring enough to watch Citizen Lame.
more like citizen LAME, fight me
more like citizen lame
more like shitizen lame
more like citizen LAME
citizen kane pshh more like citizen lame
Ughhhh citizen Kane more like citizen LAME
Citizen Kane more like Shitizen Lame
citizen lame
Orson Welles is citizen lame
I Citizen Kane't wait for it to be over

Art begets art.

man you guys really like old japanese movies huh

Between these top two, it's a tough call...

I think Harakiri might be JUST a little less beloved to warrant the number 2 spot.

redrocket posted...

Art begets art.

For the record, that is a collection of a bunch of different reviews that all repeated the same joke

I know it's mostly a foreign film list, but it's still cool that a foreign film will win one of these lists that isn't anime

Last year I got Tommy Wiseau to sign my copy of Citizen Kane, which he was very gracious about. He was like "oh my god amazing movie, did you LOVE it?" and drew hearts on it.

I'm glad some of us hadn't seen it, and that it still manages to impress

Fucking Jim Gettys cost this movie the top spot.

Jim Gettys is such a great one-scene villain. All my homies hate Jim Gettys.

Nice. I think Ikiru will be next, then Harakiri at #1.

Seginustemple posted...

Last year I got Tommy Wiseau to sign my copy of Citizen Kane

thats great. I dont think Ill have much luck getting Orson to sign my copy of The Room

Apart from the two in first place, everyone who guesses gets Citizen Kane right.

Scoreboard
1. Karo: 9 (The Holy Mountain, Jeanne Dielman, Tokyo Story, The Passion of Joan of Arc, The Battle of Algiers, Eraserhead, Aguirre, Synecdoche, The Grand Budapest Hotel)
1. Johnbobb: 9 (Ordet, The Holy Mountain, Tokyo Story, Persona, The Passion of Joan of Arc, Eraserhead, Aguirre, Synecdoche, Amlie)
2. PunishedJeezy: 8 (The Conformist, The Holy Mountain, Jeanne Dielman, The Passion of Joan of Arc, Eraserhead, Synecdoche, Amlie, Citizen Kane)
3. Inviso: 6 (The Holy Mountain, The Battle of Algiers, Eraserhead, Portrait of a Lady on Fire, Amlie, Citizen Kane)
4. Seginus: 4 (Persona, The Battle of Algiers, Amlie, Citizen Kane)
5. Sergiocornaga: 2 (Amlie, Citizen Kane)
6. LightningStrikes: 1 (The Holy Mountain)

Current guesses:
sergiocornaga: Ikiru
Inviso: Harakiri
Johnbobb: Ikiru
Karo: Harakiri
Seginus: Ikiru

I'll go with Harakiri for #2

wallmasterz posted...

thats great. I dont think Ill have much luck getting Orson to sign my copy of The Room

Kind of funny given Welles appears (as a character, played by Vincent D'Onofrio and dubbed by Maurice LaMarche) in Tim Burton's Ed Wood. Not to mention Citizen Kane and The Room have a similar sequence towards the end.

What a story, Mark

You can say that again.

2. Ikiru
Originally released as , 1952, Japan
Director: Akira Kurosawa

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/e/ea75b8de.jpg
"I can't afford to hate people. I don't have that kind of time."

Rankings:
Exdeath: 2
Seginus: 4
Inviso: 7
Karo: 10
Johnbobb: 11

Total: 34

Exdeath:

The big daddy of Japanese filmmaking Akira Kurosawa makes a loose adaptation of Tolstoy's masterful, very depressing novella The Death of Ivan Ilych. It was suggested to me that Dreams is artsier but I put this movie on the list because I really, really wanted it to be on there. It's art because it tackles questions of the meaning and purpose of life, and is one of the best movies out there for evoking that feeling of wanting to do better - to live life more fully and to do more with it. Takashi Shimura gives one of the best performances of the list here as this hunched, quiet, petty-seeming little man who can barely choke his words out most of the time but then suddenly rivets everyone's attention to him with these moments of overwhelming intensity - the first singing scene in the bar, the confrontation with the deputy mayor, and of course his last scene in the park. The film is extremely thorough about depicting his change from "mummy" civil servant to becoming aware he has terminal stomach cancer (and his son barely gives a shit about him, and his coworkers are only interested in taking his position, and the one person he does connect with in the form of a young woman who just quit being his coworker eventually gets tired of him,) to realizing there's still just enough time left to make a difference and putting his all into the construction of a park previously blocked by byzantine bureaucracy. This last portion is its biggest difference from the source material, where Ivan's epiphany comes when he's already too close to the grave to do anything - he can't even muster the strength to speak to his son and try and warn him not to live as he did. Ivan Ilyich can only win a sort of philosophical victory over death, Kurosawa lets Watanabe live a few months past his. He does something quite brilliant here by cutting ahead to Watanabe's funeral and having his coworkers piece together what kind of man he was over a very long sequence with lots of flashbacks detailing the fights he had to go through against that stifling beareaucratic system, and only THEN showing us his final moments almost at the very end of the film, where he dies alone in the snow on the swings of the park he made, singing that same sad song, but appearing to be completely content. And perhaps Watanabe makes a bigger difference than just building that park - his drunk coworkers all resolve to change their ways at his funeral, and although the film shows that they immediately go back to their apathetic normal afterward, at least one man seems to have inherited some of Watanabe's lesson. And maybe we as the audience do too.

Seginus:

This was my favorite of the films I hadnt seen yet. On a list like this it was an especially nice change of pace to have such an uplifting and positive message delivered straight and without reserve - a reminder to live instead of just killing time. I guess theres also the message that government will refuse to address a public health crisis until a senior beaurucrat gets terminally ill, but thats beside the point. I had no idea what it was going to be about but right from the jump it got me in the jugular - obligatory fuck cancer. Oh shit, it could be me!

Shimura has an incredible sad clown face, so pitiable and full of pathos it just makes you want to give him a hug. The movie hangs on his countenance, even in the second half when its just a picture of him presiding over the funeral service. The expressions he pulls throughout the movie are over-the-top but they work perfectly for the character. His cry-singing scenes are so over-the-top theyre simultaneously hilarious and tragic.

Im struck by how modern the story feels, for being 70+ years old its completely relatable and could be retold today in practically the exact same way. Influence on recent media is apparent as well, from Uncut Gems to the latest South Park special. I would be surprised if the American Healthcare System montage wasnt directly inspired by Ikirus opening sequence.

Inviso:

I wasnt fully onboard with this film during the first or second acts. Dont get me wrong, theyre still enough, but for movie with this plotline, I just wouldve wanted a little more substance in those sections. As it stands, I do GET it. The short first act is Watanabe realizing he wasted his life, and then indulging in various frivolities. This leads to him then finding a connection with Toyo in the second act, where he seems to find a new meaning to his lifebut even that is just fleeting frivolities that grow stale by the end of their time together. Now, while both of these first acts feels like fluff, I still think both are necessary to show Watanabes growth over the course of the film, especially leading into the all-important third act.

His final talk with Toyo makes him realize that for all of the living life he does, hes not doing something that actually makes him feel proud and happy; hes just doing what youre supposed to do to feel happy. So, he throws himself into his work and forcibly breaks through the tedium of the Japanese bureaucracy to accomplish a single task: fixing a mess of stagnant water to create a park where children can play safely and healthily. This is a nice conclusionbut its also told really well, from the perspective of his bureaucrat co-workers who start out trying to find a way to deny that it was his sheer force of will that accomplished the taskonly to realize just how impressive of a man he really was, fighting so hard for something hed likely never get to enjoy due to his cancer diagnosis. It was a great triumph for this man who we spent the whole movie viewing as meek and sorrowfuland he deserved the praise he never got. It was a beautiful ending to the film, and guess what else?

It's the return of the Vis Cry Count! Moment 1: This caught me completely off-guard, but at Watanabes wake, when the womens committee shows up in tears, after everyone else rejected them and gave them the runaround, all because Watanabe stood up and helped themjust the fact that this man thought his life was meaningless, yet in death, he touched livesI burst into tears unexpectedly.

Karo:

An unassuming government worker learns he is terminally ill with cancer, and with his simple life thus upended, he decides to go and cook some crystal meth.
No, wait that is a different story, here he struggles to find meaning in his short life remaining, first through hedonism, and secondly through romance, but he still feels unfulfilled.
It is here that he finally has an epiphany, and begins a struggle to wrestle with his incompetent workplace bureaucracy with the simple goal of construction of a new playground in a run down neighborhood.
His coworkers gather to remember him in a very touching scene where they all recognize how much he has accomplished in comparison with how little they have done in their own lazy cowardly existences.
Watanabe is an infinitely relatable and undeniable human character, and the subtle way his despair is portrayed is a masterwork of movie direction.
I had little experience with old Japanese cinema prior to this project, but now I see why everyone always says Kurosawa is one of the best there ever was.

Johnbobb:

What does it say about the human experience that this 7 decade old Japanese film still feels so thoroughly relateable? Seriously, the bureaucracy nightmare that was the first 15 minutes or so of the movie was infuriatingly familiar. Kenji himself is a little eccentric at times, but that's part of what makes him such an easy character to care for. His death, and the absolutely lack of a leadup toward it, even though the entire movie to that point had been leading toward it, is brutal.

Favorite line from a 1/2 star Letterboxd review:
men will literally build a park instead of going to therapy or meaningfully taking responsibility for their life or even just recognizing the fallibility of the system that youre a part of.

And so of course that means our #1 film is...

1. Harakiri
Originally released as , 1962, Japan
Director: Masaki Kobayashi

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/c/cbc78bb6.jpg
"After all, this thing we call samurai honor is ultimately nothing but a facade."

Rankings:

Exdeath: 3
Johnbobb: 5
Inviso: 6
Seginus: 7
Karo: 11

total: 32

Exdeath:

I watched this one a few years back and knew I would place it high up, but I'm glad I revisited it because it turned out even better than I remembered. Like Ikiru, the narrative structure here is absolutely brilliant: a quietly intense Ronin comes to a wealthy house claiming to want to commit harakiri, which we then learn is a common scam practiced by impoverished former Samurai. The men of the house coldly recount an absolutely horrifying story where they forced the last man who tried this scam, Chijiwa Motome, to go through with the ritual suicide using the bamboo sword he replaced his true blade with after selling it (in what for me was the most difficult to watch scene on the list), but the Ronin is undisturbed and insists on going through with it, names three absent men to be his second, and then begins to reveal that the man this clan killed was his son-in-law, he defeated all three absent men in battle and they are hiding the shame of having their top-knots cut, and he's here on a scheme of revenge. Crucially, learning Motome's story massively changes our understanding of who he was as a person and why he came to try this scam compared to our initial impression of him. Everything is executed with all this traditional Japanese decorum - long shots of serious men walking with their fancy dress, katana and short blades on their belts, kneeling on ceremonial mats and talking about the Bushido code, and then we see all this tradition and honour unravel to reveal simple self-serving corruption while the Ronin Hanshiro follows all the rules more strictly than the Iyi clan themselves and knows how to turn them to his benefit in this scheme for revenge.

This is very much a critique of social institutions, with most of the suffering in this film coming from the rules of a cruel society while the characters do everything they can: first Hanshiro's leige gets unjustly exiled as a political move by the Shogunate, then he and his son-in-law are refused work for being former samurai, then Motome is shamed for selling his swords in response to this and finally in an act of desperation he goes to the Iyi clan and faces a nightmarish death because the clan doesn't want to have to spend chump change on alms for people who are suffering. Since Motome was trying to afford a doctor for his wife and son, even a touch of socialized health care could've prevented most of the drama of this film. It might seem a little odd to critique the institutions of a 17th century nation, which almost no one alive today would defend (and I only say *almost* because there's always one or two weirdos ready to defend any dumb idea), but many of the themes here are universal enough to be applied to society today. Military veterans still pretty much get through out like trash in peacetime, there are still elaborate forms of cruelty like American prison labour or the abomination that is "anti-homeless architecture" that serve only to give small benefits to the rich and powerful, and social rules and ideas of honor are usually still just a facade that gets dropped at the earliest convenience.

Harakiri is a very talky, slow-burn type of film, but it still manages to be one of the most riveting of the whole list because of the mortal consequences hanging over every exchange and the intensity of the performances. When it does explode out into samurai action, the deep narrative meaning and dramatic pathos of the battles make them some of the most captivating ever put to screen. A jaw-dropping masterpiece.

Johnbobb:

Man, Harakiri fucking rules. The movie, not the action, as the movie laid out pretty thoroughly! Start to finish, Harakiri had me drawn it. The beginning is gruesome and terrifying, and as the true plot starts to reveal itself, it only becomes more captivating as you see the levels of stubborness and depravity the clan is willing to stoop to in the name of "honor," honor which they themselves aren't willing to uphold. It's less a traditional samurai film and more of a deep dive into self-sustaining corruption. All this leads to a battle, the battle we know from pretty early on is ultimately approaching, which isn't some grand showing of action, but rather one man wildly swinging his sword in a hopeless fight against dozens of cowardly samurai. And the fight just keeps going, because even with Hanshiro outnumbered about 50 to 1, nobody is willing to really put themselves at any more risk than they feel they need to. It's pathetic, and it's great.

Favorite line from a 1/2 star Letterboxd review (unfortunately a lot of these were just people intentionally trying to drag the score down because it's the highest rated film on Letterboxd):
a silly story about a guy killing some dudes because his friends 1600s version of a crypto scam failed

Inviso:

This movie was right up my alley in terms of hitting (and perhaps inspiring, given its age) a lot of the storyline beats that are always going to get me onboard with a samurai or kung-fu style movie. But yeah, I really enjoyed the story structure here. You start out with all this discussion of honor and samurai ideals from the Iyi Clan, which leads back to the samurai code and hara-kiri (ritualistic suicide). Apparently, a former samurai earnestly went to clan leader in the wake of his clan being destroyed and disbanded, in the hopes that this new clan leader would allow him the honor of providing a space for him to commit hara-kiri. This passion and honor was so impressive the ronin was offered a position within this new clans ranks. However, word of this story spread, and suddenly all sorts of grifters started doing the same thing in an effort to make a quick buck.

This brings us to the start of the story. A ronin named Hanshiro arrives at the Iyi Clan to ask for the right of hara-kiri himself, and they in turn tell him the story of Motomean alleged grifter who came asking for the same thing. However, he arrived wielding a pair of bamboo swords, leading the clan to believe he was clearly full of shit, and they needed to make an example of him. As he begged and pleaded, not for his life necessarily, but rather for a few days delay, they forced him to kill himself with a dulled bamboo blade, effectively prolonging his suffering. All the while, Motome is treated like a joke and a cautionary tale by all involved. Despite hearing this, Hanshiro calmly maintains his resolve to commit hara-kiri, and so the clan moves along with the plan.

Heres where things start to get interesting though. Up until this point, Hanshiro has been a cool, stoic badass, yet in the moment where hes being prepped to go through the ritual, he pauses and asks if hes allowed to choose his second. The name he gives is the man who, previously in the story, oversaw Motomes painful hara-kiri attempt. Yet Hikokuro is nowhere to be found, having effectively called in sick. Hanshiro really had his sights set on Hikokuro decapitating him though, so hes willing to wait while the clan attempts to fetch him. This gives him a chance to tell a story of his own while they wait; you seeHanshiro actually KNEW Motome. Hanshiro was Motomes guardian and father-in-law.

Suddenly, where the Iyi Clan told Motomes story as a cowardly grifter, Hanshiro provides an alternative viewpoint. Motome was a devoted husband and father, yet he fell upon hard times and when both his son and his wife got sick, he had no money with which to help them. So perhaps yes, he was trying to grift the Iyi Clan out of desperationand Hanshiro cannot exactly call this honorable. But at the same time, the level of disdain the Iyi Clan showed Motome was despicable, and all he wanted to do was inform his family before he was forced to kill himself. Instead, his body was hauled in and mocked in front of his loved ones.

Again, this plot has been fascinating thus far, and you KNOW Hanshiro has more up his sleeve, because hes been calm and poised, and on a mission the entire time. And when the clan fails to produce two MORE swordsman at Hanshiros requestthats when he makes his big reveal. It turns outhe already found Hikokuro, Hayato, and Umenosukeand he bested them in combat before cutting their hair and disgracing them as swordsmen. Thats why they arent at the clan base; theyre ashamed and unwilling to acknowledge their dishonor. Having broken the faade of honor that the Iyi Clan bandied about as their justification for torturing Motome, Hanshiro then goes full Rambo, grabbing a sword and fighting his way through a horde of samurai before hes finally felled. In his last moments (before the clan shoots him down with guns, rather than honorably besting him with swords), he commits his hara-kiri, getting the last laugh.

I just found the plot very tight, and Hanshiros character as the quiet, storyteller who knows more than hes letting on was very well-done in my eyes. I love the shift from the Iyi Clan holding themselves up as a beacon of samurai honor, only for their own members to cower and prove that theyre not honorable at all. Even after Hanshiros rampage endsthe clan simply covers up what happened, rather than admit that a single ronin was able to defeat so many of their number. Sure, the trio of swordsmen Hanshiro beat have to kill themselves (and only Hikokuro had the honor to do so of his own accord), but at the end of the day, the Iyi Clan can paper over their flaws. But we know. The viewers know who had true honor and who was the best of the best when it came to facing down that lone ronin.

Seginus:

A masterfully wound samurai tragedy that slowly ratchets up the tension to a boiling point before finally exploding into action. The flashback framing device sees the entire movie play out in anticipation of a showdown, and when the revenge story finally switches to present tense it comes with fist-pumping momentum, though we know there can be no happy ending.

Period pieces were often a way for Japanese filmmakers to include contemporary political/social commentary in the post-war climate of censorship. In Harakiri, the plight of the ronin shortly into the Edo period is a clear stand-in for the economic despair of a freshly unemployed military class following Japans post-WWII demilitarization. Its no coincidence the first ronin we see comes from a defeated Hiroshima. In this light, the suicidal ideations are stripped of the romantic veneer of old-world ritual dignity and speak to a more post-modern sense of desperation and devastation.

The drama is elevated by the aesthetic, high contrast and deep focus keep everything looking sharp and bold, infrequency of motion springloads every action. The iconic fight with the third retainer is as effective as it is because its prefaced by so much stillness in the square of the courtyard, and suddenly we get hit with turbulent wind, grassy hills, clouds racing. It comes with a mystical quality. And of course the sequence where the ronin makes his last stand and finally claims the suit of armor is an excellent dark ending. This is the first time I saw this one and I loved it.

Karo:

A disgraced samurai makes a request of a noble family to use their manor grounds for a bout of stomach stabby time, but there is more than meets the eyes.
He is here for vengeance against the clan who cruelly forced his adopted son to die by seppuku, and there is this incredible feeling of tension between the ronin and the clan official as he deftly maneuvers into a position to strike a devastating blow to the Iyi clan's supposed honor.
The director's contempt for ritual suicide and samurai traditions in general is on full display, all are shown as empty and vapid practices that are only adhered to when you feel like it, and pale in comparison to protecting those who we hold dear.
The hypocrisy and virtue signaling of those who profess honor is something that transcends time and culture, and the fact that this film can speak to a modern american audience as well is a mark of a true masterpiece.

Final Outlier Scores:

Seginus: 228
Exdeath: 205
Inviso: 196
Johnbobb: 186
Karo: 172

Seginus completes the victory that was evident for a long time while my Pan's Labyrinth and Grand Budapest Hotel shenanigans secure second place. Meanwhile Karo gets the lowest outlier rank, which I think proves that he's the truest art snob of all.