Current Events > A way more fun criticism to make of JK Rowling is her bizarre worldbuilding

(+) Yeah! (+)

She specifically and definitively said there are 11 school across the world. She also said that about 1 in 10 people are magical.

There's a school for the UK, and then there's a school for all of africa. The various school names are literally just "magic place" or similar in whatever roughly native language the school is in.

In the UK alone there is one school, one bank, one prison, etc. There's 1000 students at hogwarts.

Try and make it all make sense.

The funny thing is she could literaly have saved herself with "we don't realy know" or "there are just the ones we know about". But no, as always she doubles down on the nonsense and demands you to see facts where there are no facts.

And it's such a missed opportunity for worldbuilding too. Imagine how interesting it would be if the world of harry potter was bigger than just voldemort and harry. if there were feuds going on around the world, if there were ancient and mysterious schools buried in Tibet or wherever...

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WritersCannotDoMath

Moldemort

pinky0926 posted...

Try and make it all make sense.

The problem is, once you know how she makes it all make sense...it's not really a "fun" observation. It's a scary one.

We all have to learn how the world's a little bit fucked at some point or another. But at some point, Rowling said "nah fuck it i'm going to be part of the ones fucking it up"

Yeah she was always really bad about not just leaving stuff to speculation.

Rowling's books are just variations on the old fashioned English Public School novel (Jennings, Tom Brown, Stalky & Co) with a dash of wish fulfillment for the self-inserters: gifted kid goes to posh school, basically.

I prefer Timothy Hunter over Harry Potter anyway

I think Shaun did a pretty good video on this a while back. Considering how secretive Wizards are, it's perfectly plausible that they'd hide from each other too. This is especially true with how many of them are obsessed with blood purity, which actually makes them insanely racist now that I think about it.

The biggest issue with Harry Potter is that the author is nowhere near as good a writer as she thinks she is and is unwilling to face that fact. She cannot take criticism of any sort on board.

I distinctly remember a conversation I had about this in college with someone who noted that a good question to ask about a work's world building is "does this all fall apart if the main character isn't there?"

Antifar posted...

I distinctly remember a conversation I had about this in college with someone who noted that a good question to ask about a work's world building is "does this all fall apart if the main character isn't there?"

First thing I think of Bioshock Infinite

Antifar posted...

I distinctly remember a conversation I had about this in college with someone who noted that a good question to ask about a work's world building is "does this all fall apart if the main character isn't there?"

How does that fit Harry Potter though?

GiftedACIII posted...

First thing I think of Bioshock Infinite

Or Bioshock Infinite for that matter?

The issues in those worlds' building wouldn't be different if Harry and Booker didn't exist

pegusus123456 posted...

The issues in those worlds' building wouldn't be different if Harry and Booker didn't exist

Well that one's debatable, but going into it is big spoilers.

CyricZ posted...

Well that one's debatable, but going into it is big spoilers.

Being an important part of the plot doesn't mean the world building is bad

pegusus123456 posted...

How does that fit Harry Potter though?

Or Bioshock Infinite for that matter?

The issues in those worlds' building wouldn't be different if Harry and Booker didn't exist

The multiverse literally revolves around Booker. All the constants are based on what Booker does and the different things he does while minor characters could have entirely different lives and barely affect anything. And then the multiverse literally revolves around Elizabeth including retroactively tying in the original Bioshock's origins with her as well. Even after Bookerstock is supposedly erased from existence there STILL are versions of him that's majorly involved.

pegusus123456 posted...

Being an important part of the plot doesn't mean the world building is bad

Bruh lol are you actually defending Infinite's worldbuilding. It having atrocious worldbuilding is one of the main criticisms over it. It has some of if not the worst worldbuilding I've ever seen in a commercial work. I've seen amateur OC fiction with better worldbuilding.

GiftedACIII posted...

Bruh lol are you actually defending Infinite's worldbuilding. It having atrocious worldbuilding is one of the main criticisms over it. It has some of if not the worst worldbuilding I've ever seen in a commercial work. I've seen amateur fanfiction with better worldbuilding.

I mean to say that the world relying on a central protagonist isn't a reason for the world-building to be bad. Infinite is honestly the perfect example, it hinges pretty heavily on Booker, but its problems are not the result of that.

The world-building makes a lot more sense early on when it's clear she's just Halloween Towning it and throwing every magic-related cliche into a pot and calling it a setting.

But then as the story starts taking itself more seriously Rowling decides she's going to try and start filling in the blanks and making sense of the story. But since it wasn't built on any logical foundation, trying to fill the holes in the world just pokes new ones.

pegusus123456 posted...

How does that fit Harry Potter though?

Roughly nothing happens anywhere in the world it seems without harry potter being directly involved in it. Like the entire evil wizarding dictatorship is dependent on harry potter existing in order to make sense or move the plot forward.

If you remove harry from the ongoing war, what does everyone else contribute? The order of the phoenix achieved exactly zero of its goals (i'm not even sure it stated any clear goals). The death eaters dont really do anything except laugh at voldemorts jokes. The rest of the world is pretty much oblivious.

R1masher posted...

I prefer Timothy Hunter over Harry Potter anyway

That's kind of tainted now, too, a bit.

pegusus123456 posted...

I mean to say that the world relying on a central protagonist isn't a reason for the world-building to be bad. Infinite is honestly the perfect example, it hinges pretty heavily on Booker, but its problems are not the result of that.

Oh that's fair enough. On the subject of HP at least there are quite a few spinoffs that don't involve Harry or Voldemort at all but I suppose Rowling isn't really involved with them.

pinky0926 posted...

Roughly nothing happens anywhere in the world it seems without harry potter being directly involved in it. Like the entire evil wizarding dictatorship is dependent on harry potter existing in order to make sense or move the plot forward.

If you remove harry from the ongoing war, what does everyone else contribute? The order of the phoenix achieved exactly zero of its goals (i'm not even sure it stated any clear goals). The death eaters dont really do anything except laugh at voldemorts jokes. The rest of the world is pretty much oblivious.

That's not really true though, there are things going on in the world. The plot moves on with Harry because he's the one we're following.

Like Voldemort and the Death Eaters take control of the Ministry and Hogwarts without Harry being involved at all.

It's not really that funny or interesting when you realize a lot of it is the result of trying to retrofit logic to very simplistic half-baked concepts. It was just a bunch of whimsical bullshit which was fun in the first three books but makes for a flimsy foundation when you want to start turning them into a more serious thing for older children later

A lot of the most egregious stuff is the result of her being asked shit by fans and clearly just making something up on the spot that sounds good. She doesn't seem very good at improvisation

pegusus123456 posted...

Being an important part of the plot doesn't mean the world building is bad

Sorry yeah I think I misread where that was intended.

ultimate_reaver posted...

It's not really that funny or interesting when you realize a lot of it is the result of trying to retrofit logic to very simplistic half-baked concepts. It was just a bunch of whimsical bullshit which was fun in the first three books but makes for a flimsy foundation when you want to start turning them into a more serious thing for older children later

A lot of the most egregious stuff is the result of her being asked shit by fans and clearly just making something up on the spot that sounds good. She doesn't seem very good at improvisation

It's sort of like she wanted to make a soft magic world but ended up trying to make it hard instead. Wit set rules, logic, etc.

Like no one questions this stuff in a studio ghibli movie, because it's never needed to be

pegusus123456 posted...

How does that fit Harry Potter though?

It's just the usual problem of the protagonists having a world for them, vs. the protagonists living in a world.

Anything that isn't relevant to the hero doesn't exist, but suddenly pops put.

And everything that was supposed to be relevant before the protagonist learned of it, is suddenly useless as soon as the protagonist gets involved, because it's about them now.

How was Hogwarts supposed to function as a school, with all these different messes happening every single year?

World building, character building and plot should happen independent of each other. It should be possible to imagine the characters in a different world, the world without the special characters, and all of them without the actual plot, just living in peace. Plot should be able to progress somewhere without getting in touch with the protatognists all the time.

But in many cases, it doesn't work out.

In the case of Harry Potter it extremly doesn't work out, because thank the gods, Voldemort plans always takes the school year and Harry's classes into account.

And suddenly the whole worldbuilding crumbles as soon as you remove the anchor being (yes, I had to do this reference)

pegusus123456 posted...

That's not really true though, there are things going on in the world. The plot moves on with Harry because he's the one we're following.

Like Voldemort and the Death Eaters take control of the Ministry and Hogwarts without Harry being involved at all.

That's actually one of the few exceptions, but especially the first 5 years are terrible.

Everything happens with Harry somehow involved.

I think HPs rise to fame was due to its magical setting and not necessarily the writing.

MeltraT posted...

Plot should be able to progress somewhere without getting in touch with the protatognists all the time.

But in many cases, it doesn't work out.

In the case of Harry Potter it extremly doesn't work out, because thank the gods, Voldemort plans always takes the school year and Harry's classes into account.

And suddenly the whole worldbuilding crumbles as soon as you remove the anchor being (yes, I had to do this reference)

Not sure I agree with this?

Philosopher's Stone: Harry is irrelevant to the plot. As a reader we're just invested in him solving the mystery. If he never gets involved, Dumbledore's plan works and...that's it.

CoS: there's no real plan. There's a snake and a weird memory ghost thing just chilling. If Harry doesn't succeed, the school gets closed down. Most likely Dumbledore or someone else eventually cleans things up and school is back the following year.

PoA: there's no plan because there's no villain. Every perceived threat is a misunderstanding because Harry's just getting tangled up in a murder plot between two other people. Technically the "anchor bejng" here is Ron lmao

GoF: depends on Harry specifically because they want to use the triwizard cup as a smokescreen for a human sacrifice.

OotP: the book is just 900 pages of the good guys getting worked by Voldemort. Absolute shitshow. Harry doesn't even manage to stick with his cute Ravenclaw gf for more than a month.

HBP: the timing of the villain plot is entirely on Malfoy, who is also a student and so has to literally plan his villainy around the school year lol.

DH: they're not even in Hogwarts for most of the book lol

DnDer posted...

That's kind of tainted now, too, a bit.

how?

Kim_Seong-a posted...

Not sure I agree with this?

1) Harry is everywhere in the plot. Nothing happens without Harry getting pulled in. Everything is able to move on because Harry is doing stuff, and everything that happens to Harry is relevant, and at the same time, all the high level stuff to protect the stone was able to get solved by the knowledge of some first grade kids. Locks are worthless, and a deadly guard dog in the school is normal. Even the freaking collectible wizard card from the chocolate frogs was a relevant puzzle piece. But yeah, everything works out because Harry got the magic acid hands. He was nearly causing Dumbledore's plan to fail, but still became the hero.

2) The deadly snake with the deadly gaze, that was never able to kill anyone for silly reasons, to make give them a murder case without murder (except one in the past). Everything fell specifically into place, and once more, everything got only resolved because only Harry was able to get all the puzzle pieces by chance. And of course because the Polyjuice potion can be brewed by 2nd graders in a bathroom.

3) I would say the achor being in that case is Hermione, because of time travel stuff. Obviously you give some kid some time travel magic so she can visit more classes. But yeah, we also have Ron's rat popping up there. Obviously something you would give a kid so she can visit more classes. Not to ignore the magic map, and Hogsmeade suddenly became a real relevant place for... everything. And don't forget that the rat of Ron of course...

4) Even the freaking Quidditch World Cup world suddenly got relevant in 3 different ways, because it suddenly threw all the plot on it. We got the explanation of teleportarion items, Krum and the Dark Mark all got thrown at Harry within a single event.

5) Yeah, the order did what they did all the time for years in the background, and then everything went down the drain the year Harry got aware of the situation. Meanwhile, Harry went on training "Dumbledore's Army", because "Defense against the dark arts" is now supposed to be illegal.

It gets less silly over time, because we are talking about a more and more competent character, and plot just gets more relevant than the world itself.

But the first three to four books are just absurd, because it seems like all the wise teachers of hogwarts get outsmarted by a first/second/third grade boy because he got a invisibility cloak and magic map.

The fact that all these events happend and got solved by Harry, while the adults just shrugged and let it just take it's flow is the issue there.

And there are so many minor things too. Like the whomping willow where you just have to ask: How can this stuff just be on a school ground?

How many times were Harry (and/or other school kids) in lethal danger, that could also have happend to another random kid with bad luck?

I mean, don't get me wrong: It works as a book because it's about Harry Potter and his adventures. But don't tell me that there was any thought about the world in advance, because for a world full of magic, it somehow lacks some defense against it.

What's the use of locks in a school like Hogwards, if kids learns Alohomora during their first year of magic school?

R1masher posted...

I prefer Timothy Hunter over Harry Potter anyway

This.

Anyhow, it's hard to bother nickpicking when a writer's a hack. And Rowling is a hack.

MeltraT posted...

The fact that all these events happend and got solved by Harry, while the adults just shrugged and let it just take it's flow is the issue there.

There are going to need to be some concessions in a children's story so that the story isn't "the adults did all the cool stuff and the kids stayed inside and did homework" lol.

Your original comment said that the plots should be able to progress without the main character. And every book except 4 and 7 (where Harry plays pivotal roles for lore reasons) can function without him.

Like...what should a story actually look like? What tangible counter-example is there for how you think things should actually go? Because looking at the HP books it just seems like Harry is constantly involved in things because the books are about Harry <_<

pinky0926 posted...

She specifically and definitively said there are 11 school across the world.

No she didn't? She said there's "eleven long-established and prestigious wizarding schools worldwide" not eleven in total.

https://www.wizardingworld.com/writing-by-jk-rowling/wizarding-schools

I haven't read the books so I can't comment on anything specifically but I think she just sat down to write some kids books and didn't expect nerds to dig through them. They're just silly little wizard stories and aren't supposed to be taken that seriously or have real logic applied to them.

She didn't really care about world building only Hogwarts and the UK mattered.

AceMos posted...

how?

Gaiman has been outed as a long-time pest and used his position of celebrity and power to exploit the (often much younger) women under him.

Gives all his creations a sour taste until he starts actually making good and making up for his behavior.

DnDer posted...

Gaiman has been outed as a long-time pest and used his position of celebrity and power to exploit the (often much younger) women under him.

Gives all his creations a sour taste until he starts actually making good and making up for his behavior.

pretty sure those claims got debunked

i recall it getting tied back to people being upset a trans woman was cast in sandman season2

I don't think the Gaiman claims have been confirmed or debunked yet and well we shouldn't allow how we feel about him cloud our judgement. I'd he did those things we have to accept it.

wizards poop anywhere and just use magic to make it invisible

JuanCarlos1 posted...

I think HPs rise to fame was due to its magical setting and not necessarily the writing.

It was at the right place at the right time. It also helped that the books grew up with the readers. I never got into it, but my wife is obsessed with it. From watching the movies, Harry Potter is such a self-insert power fantasy character where everyone loves him and those that don't like him are written to be as unlikable as possible. Though I will admit, what they did with Professor Snape was pretty well done imo.

Quidditch is a very dumb sport that no rational person, wizard or otherwise, would invent, and no one would actually play it or watch it if it were a real thing. The rules of the game don't make any sense, and the only magic involved is riding around on a broom.

For me the funniest thing she did pre-transphobe spiral was when she went along with the idea of retconning Hermione to be black. It would have been cool to have a non-white member in the main protagonist trio, mind you. I just dont think she thought through how that would change the context of the whole Hermione goes off in a self-righteous tizzy about slavery and every other character rolls their eyes at how annoying shes being plot that happens through the later books. Like can you imagine Ron and Harry trying to explain to a black girl, No, no, you see, they like being slaves! Its actually better for them! They wouldnt know what to do with freedom if they actually got it!

Theres a reason why fantasy authors often have continuity editors meticulously checking works for plot holes and errors. Rowling instead seems to opt for the Elon Musk running a business method of making it up entirely as you go along, pretending like it was all intentionally planned from the beginning, and hastily coming up with nonsense answers about any inconsistencies or logical flaws afterward, without thinking about them.

ModernPost posted...

Quidditch is a very dumb sport that no rational person, wizard or otherwise, would invent, and no one would actually play it or watch it if it were a real thing. The rules of the game don't make any sense, and the only magic involved is riding around on a broom.

loved how the owl house mocked the stupidity of quidditch

ModernPost posted...

Quidditch is a very dumb sport that no rational person, wizard or otherwise, would invent, and no one would actually play it or watch it if it were a real thing. The rules of the game don't make any sense, and the only magic involved is riding around on a broom.

To be fair to the author (not that she deserves it) I do genuinely believe that Quidditch was made intentionally stupid/silly to fit in with the overall silliness associated with wizarding society in the early books. And the rules would still sort of make sense in a Premier League style league where things like goal differential come into play and the title goes to whoever sits atop the points table at the end of the season. It especially makes sense as part of the House Cup at Hogwarts, where the points scored get added to the academic points total for each house.

It doesnt, of course, make any sense in a tournament-style World Cup, so the 4th book plotline is completely absurd. Another classic example of Rowling making something that makes sense at first but doesnt really work in the larger world due to her lack of planning.

Harry Potter has pretty lazy world-building tbh. It makes sense when you realize it's more supposed to be a "whimsical fairy tale" than an actual legitmate world.

pinky0926 posted...

sort of like she wanted to make a soft magic world but ended up trying to make it hard instead. Wit set rules, logic, etc.

That's exactly how it is. She basically started out writing children's books where you're supposed to go "WOW NEAT" when you see goblins and elves and broomstick water polo and not really think about it other than how cool it sounds. Then around book 4 or 5 she really started trying to expand the world so that the scale of the conflict she was setting up felt greater, but she also tried to make the tone more serious along with that, and trying to take what she had created really seriously just... Doesn't work.

I don't know why she did that exactly. My least charitable read (which is probably correct considering it's her) was that it was calculated to follow the growing age of her demographic so that those people would keep buying books. But it just... Didn't really work. It felt like an insane patchwork job when you think too hard about anything.

And yeah everything beyond the books being written and pre-transphobia insanity is just Hogwarts Adults demanding hard magic systems for their roleplay or whatever, and her struggling to turn herself into Brandon Sanderson in order to satisfy everyone and just making everybody more mad by saying wizards are shitting on the floor

MrToothHasYou posted...

To be fair to the author (not that she deserves it) I do genuinely believe that Quidditch was made intentionally stupid/silly to fit in with the overall silliness associated with wizarding society in the early books. And the rules would still sort of make sense in a Premier League style league where things like goal differential come into play and the title goes to whoever sits atop the points table at the end of the season. It especially makes sense as part of the House Cup at Hogwarts, where the points scored get added to the academic points total for each house.

It doesnt, of course, make any sense in a tournament-style World Cup, so the 4th book plotline is completely absurd. Another classic example of Rowling making something that makes sense at first but doesnt really work in the larger world due to her lack of planning.

Even counting point differentials its too disconnected, like 2 sports in one. It could make sense if the game was timed and itd be possible to end the game without a snitch catch. It could be more interactive if you had to catch it while your team had possession. If hitting the bludgers at the seeker was treated as a normal strategy and not Slytherin shenanigans.

I would find it easier to believe that she meant quidditch to be stupid if she wasn't from the very beginning introducing long drawn out quidditch action sequences that are meant to be tense and have you invested in their nonsense rules. As it stands I don't think she was trying to pull a funny Terry Pratchett commentary on sports, she probably just thought the snitch chase would make for an exciting setpiece and didn't think too hard about it beyond that

Minor hang up I suppose and more character based, but it just seems to ring of false drama to have his Uncle and Aunt being the a step away from being like evil step parents.

Just more reminders that I could've read something actually good as a kid and not this complete trash...

AceMos posted...

pretty sure those claims got debunked

Sadly, no. And more people have come out with allegations. There's the New Zealand stuff he's denied, because criminal allegations and all, but there's been at least two more he's been silent about, and other industry whispers piling up. Here's a couple links that have been shared with me as it's been broken over the last few weeks.

https://www.tortoisemedia.com/2024/07/03/exclusive-neil-gaiman-accused-of-sexual-assault/

https://www.tortoisemedia.com/2024/08/01/exclusive-two-more-women-accuse-neil-gaiman-of-sexual-assault-and-abuse/

(Tortoise has also done like a 4-hour bit of journalism over the first two women, but I haven't completely listened to it myself. I won't link to it directly until then.)

And here's a link about how he's been banned at writers' workshops, including one where there's no writer older than 18 attending.

https://fandompulse.substack.com/p/neil-gaiman-accused-of-sexual-misconduct

And a Blue Sky thread from a relatively big name model who has traveled in the same geographic and social circles that Gaiman does.

https://bsky.app/profile/ulorinvex.bsky.social/post/3kytz7eel3u2i

Breaks your heart, too. Dude always felt like he was supposed to be the opposite of one of Those Guys, and it turns out... he kind of might be.

There's other sources suggesting it's up to seven women after a Reddit thread saw people say more, but that's a Reddit thread and not primary and secondary sources and journalists doing the work, so I'm not including it.