Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 439: Groping for Hope

(+) Yeah! (+)

AriaOfBolo posted...

but pardon me for not breaking out the pom-poms as I am escorted out of the big tent

What do you think big tent means exactly?

If you agree with her on all issues except trans issues, then you agree with her. Period. No big tent required, you right in the middle of it. The fact that you are kicked in the gut here and there doesn't change that.

I'd love to have a politician that espouses even 50% of what I believe, let alone 90% or more. Kamala certainly doesn't come close, and yet she still big tents me, because of a few bones thrown in my direction. A big tent is an inclusionary concept, not a non-exclusionary one.

Healthcare reform any day now

*sighs*

Lopen posted...

Biden vs Trump I'd probably be doing the Corrik thing at some level (but ultimately siding Biden easily because Harris seems 9000% better than Vance if one of them kicked the bucket)

This is not the analysis Corrik is doing. It might look similar on the surface but it's totally different.

I don't think Corrik is doing that analysis at all I was just giving him the smoking gun I like since most people in here I feel are appealing to things Corrik likely does not care about

LightningStrikes posted...

All the more reason for Harris to push back against transphobia. Its important to remember politicians shape opinions, not just reflect them. Suburban Betty more likely than not didnt care until the right started telling her to.

Yeah, this just isn't accurate.

The pipeline is that right wing media (which has a far more dedicated viewer base than any individual left-wing source) makes up an issue and pushes it, and then both their right-wing politicians and their right-wing voters voters lock in their positions immediately. That's half the country right off the bat who will act in lock-step on this new issue. And unfortunately, due to the reach and power of right-wing media, they can force a narrative into left-wing spaces via the notion of "This subject is causing a lot of controversy and voters care about it", which creates a snowball effect that bolsters the concept.

If left-wing politicians step in and try to defend against this right-wing narrative, then they're doing three things. First, they're acknowledging the right-wing voice on an issue as legitimate, in that it's a subject they have to defend against to begin with. Second, in playing defense, you allow the GOP to further their attacks, pushing harder and harder right and giving them soundbites they can easily manipulate to provide "proof" of their accusations. And third, a left-wing politician coming out and telling your average voter that "Hey, you're wrong about this subject" just makes them double down AND makes them think the politician is some kind of elitist asshole who's calling THEM stupid.

Ultimately, the problem is that the American people ARE fucking stupid, and I'd wager that every one of us (who is American, mind you...I THINK you're from the U.K., right LS?) thinks we're super smart and probably smarter and more politically savvy than most politicians. And that problem is exacerbated by the fact that MOST Americans are fucking stupid in this way AND they lean conservative. Hence how you can have an extremely charismatic and energetic politician like Bernie Sanders calling out the fact that the super rich are fucking us, and we deserve universal healthcare...and the response from the electorate was first "Fuck this guy! I don't want radical socialism! I'm voting for Hillary/Biden!" and then "Fuck the Democrats, they're just going to cave to Sanders and AOC and give us radical socialism! I'm voting for Trump!"

Voters don't reward Democratic politicians for pushing left, so Democratic politicians have been conditioned to believe that pushing left will fuck them over. Voters need to consistently vote against the GOP and tell them "Hey, YOUR methods? Fucking suck, and YOU need to start representing the American people. Stop attacking trans people and waging a culture war, and we might vote for you (or at least not view you as such an existential threat that we turn out to vote Democratic)." Stop holding Democratic politicians to a standard that voters are unwilling to reward them for at least TRYING to meet.

The right is getting way worse on trans issues. In Odessa, they're allowing people to sue trans people who use the 'wrong' bathroom for $10,000. Which is SOOOOO incredibly fucked up. They need a group of people to hate. I wish they'd just direct that hate at Billionaires. "NO BILLIONAIRES IN OUR BATHROOMS!"

SirChris posted...

I disagree. Because you aren't fighting on equal footing. Places like fox News can devote endless hours demonizing Trans issues because they don't have to govern. They can fear monger and laugh.

Harris has other fights to be fighting. If she does a single thing anti Trans I will burn her alive (not literally mods) but picking your battles in the media sphere is something different.

No one cares about Trans issues but weirdos (against them i mean lol) and keeping it that way and sucking the oxygen out of their arguments is in fact smart strategy. Now bending on policies is another thing entirely.

Yeah but Fox preaches to the choir. And those people were always voting Republican. The evidence shows its just not a priority for voters who arent personally affected, and why would it be? People usually vote on bread and butter issues they have a direct stake in (some exceptions of course like Gaza). So Harris can in my view easily take a more explicitly pro-trans stance, especially since shes going to get castigated by the right on it no matter what she does.

And Im saying this as someone who has acknowledged that in two party systems elections are won from the centre. But not on every issue, and even then there is a lot of viable space to the left of the Democrats that they are just leaving empty. Sanders saw this I think and in a global sense I would very much call him a moderate. He recognised that the Democrats can go left to a degree without losing the centre. And I think Biden saw this too.

Having said that I agree that depriving the issue of oxygen is probably a good thing but I think you can do both. Just answer the question like yes, moving on. If Harris had done that, we wouldnt even be talking about it.

The problem is the whole ethos of conservatism is that if something worked before it will work again. It can only be defeated if it crashes and burns, otherwise it will ALWAYS be a safe refuge.

LightningStrikes posted...

Yeah but Fox preaches to the choir. And those people were always voting Republican. The evidence shows its just not a priority for voters who arent personally affected, and why would it be? People usually vote on bread and butter issues they have a direct stake in (some exceptions of course like Gaza). So Harris can in my view easily take a more explicitly pro-trans stance, especially since shes going to get castigated by the right on it no matter what she does.

And Im saying this as someone who has acknowledged that in two party systems elections are won from the centre. But not on every issue, and even then there is a lot of viable space to the left of the Democrats that they are just leaving empty. Sanders saw this I think and in a global sense I would very much call him a moderate. He recognised that the Democrats can go left to a degree without losing the centre. And I think Biden saw this too.

Having said that I agree that depriving the issue of oxygen is probably a good thing but I think you can do both. Just answer the question like yes, moving on. If Harris had done that, we wouldnt even be talking about it.

The thing is we are talking about it because we expect her to be perfect while next to dog shit. 8 years ago we had a candidate who couldn't even be bothered to campaign in several swing states lol

Harris's policy are clearly not to the center and that's what I care about on this issue. We accept framing too much imo. Harris isn't my perfect candidate by any means but she's the one I got and her brain isn't mush.

But no seriously look at polling no one sane cares about being anti Trans it is a massive flop lmao

I think the "conventional political wisdom" among both parties is that trans issues are a "winner" for the GOP and that it's an effective attack - and they'd probably point to Youngkin winning the Governorship of Virginia as "proof." But IIRC the anti-trans nutjobs that have made it most front-and-center in competitive, local races have largely crashed and burned so I think this is one where the "conventional wisdom" is wrong.

It's definitely disheartening and aggravating to see people like Allred essentially throw trans people under the bus thinking it'll help them politically however.

I haven't really gotten those vibes from Harris but I'll admit I could be missing things - but nationally I feel like the Dems have been better on this than in certain state Dem parties for sure.

Im from the UK originally but I live in Ireland and have British&Irish citizenship. Sorry to stick my nose in lol, but the US election affects us all and there are a lot of commonalities (and I know there are a lot of Canadians discussing in here as well!). Especially more recently with the rise of the internet. People globally are probably more politically similar than they have ever been. Yet I feel as an observer who talks to a lot of Americans and has seen a lot of polling data, the political class is lagging behind the people on a lot of progressive issues. Overwhelming majorities support public healthcare provision and gun control yet the Democrats dont. Surely they can move left without losing the centre.

foolm0r0n posted...

Case in point, any time Aria mentions Kamala's trans issues, people respond to her just like to Corrik

Aria ain't dangling the undecided voter carrot.

LightningStrikes posted...

Im from the UK originally but I live in Ireland and have British&Irish citizenship. Sorry to stick my nose in lol, but the US election affects us all and there are a lot of commonalities (and I know there are a lot of Canadians discussing in here as well!). Especially more recently with the rise of the internet. People globally are probably more politically similar than they have ever been. Yet I feel as an observer who talks to a lot of Americans and has seen a lot of polling data, the political class is lagging behind the people on a lot of progressive issues. Overwhelming majorities support public healthcare provision and gun control yet the Democrats dont. Surely they can move left without losing the centre.

Polling data suggests voters want progressive policies, yes. Hell, look at Florida. You have ballot initiatives regarding abortion and marijuana that are polling left. Yet when it comes to electing politicians, Florida is leaning overwhelmingly in favor of far right-wing ghouls who will do everything in their power to defang those ballot initiatives and in fact push for the opposite of those ballot initiatives on a national level. The message THAT sends is that yeah, voters might care about CERTAIN left-wing issues...but they care MORE about right-wing issues, and will thus throw those left-wing issues under the bus to get a right-wing politician.

Being anti-trans is a loser stance electorally, but being pro-trans is also a loser stance electorally. The only electorally beneficial trans stance is to not talk about it.

kevwaffles posted...

Aria ain't dangling the undecided voter carrot.

She def was. Not anymore obv, but only due to the circumstance of having already voted.

AriaOfBolo posted...

every time I start leaning Harris, the dems get worse
every time I start leaning third party, the republicans get worse

ballot's already in the mail anyway

foolm0r0n posted...

She def was. Not anymore obv, but only due to the circumstance of having already voted.

Not the first time she said it.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

@corrik7
Specifically what evidence would be considered a smoking gun in your eyes. Because so far Racism, Sexism, Sexual Assault, 34 counts of charges related to treason and violence towards American politicians, unprofessional decorum towards everyone he dislikes, divisive speech even towards his own party and a whole host of other verifiable bullshit has yet to be the deal breaker for you, so I gotta know what the actual fuck would be enough for you to say, "I could never vote for a man like that."

If I voted this very instant or yesterday, I am voting Kamala. But, it's swung back and forth repeatedly. I was favoring Trump a few days ago and Kamala about a week prior.

The reason I am wavering is the decorum. I mentioned that from the very start. He isn't very presidential in how he acts. I already explained the caveat to that also.

Idk what a smoking gun is or I would know who I want to vote for.

I don't know how I feel about the court stuff. I don't think that trial happens if he ran for president, and I am not sure if that trial result is the same if not in New York. He should have to deal with the consequences of it as obviously that is our laws, and he is bound by them as any other American as determined by our Courts. Th expected outcome of it if it sticks is a fine though... so I mean, as long as he pays for his mistakes as determined by the court than so be it. I have made my mistakes as well in life, I suppose.

It weighs on things but doesn't weigh it very much.

The biggest thing against Trump is his decorum as Lopen pointed out, his not calming the masses during January 6th, his foolish attempt to exploit a loophole idea during the certification of the presidency, and his lack of oversight of his administration prior that allowed to the broken unemployment boost without cap that cost jobs and stalled the return to work during covid and likely helped lead to a lot of inflation. Age is also another factor as well.

I don't think voters care as much about any specific right-wing issues as they do about just being able to say they're on Team Conservative. Of course I have no real hard evidence indicating this.

Lopen posted...

I don't think Corrik is doing that analysis at all I was just giving him the smoking gun I like since most people in here I feel are appealing to things Corrik likely does not care about

The problem with people in this topic is that they are trying to say why Trump is a bad vote instead of really saying why Kamala is a good vote. Not being Trump doesn't really sway me as good enough reasoning. I generally prefer Republican administrations.

And that is the angle my coworker like 5 days ago took on me. He basically said ignore Trump as it's his administration you are voting for and republican ideas. That it's who he gets his ideas from you should be focused on and not Trump himself.

I found that argument compelling at the time and swung back to Trump but have shifted back to Kamala more recently as well. I really don't like he himself is also just telling me not to vote for Kamala instead of focusing on why voting for him is the best.

Kamala's basically saying she wants to possibly pack the courts (tho I doubt she would actually and ofc can't without congress) is disturbing to me. It doesn't matter too much though because she won't or can't. But, I dont like she dangled that out there either.

pyresword posted...

I don't think voters care as much about any specific right-wing issues as they do about just being able to say they're on Team Conservative. Of course I have no real hard evidence indicating this.

Most don't yes. They will support whatever their team puts out. Same with the blue side. It's infuriating that it's a team sport to root for and cheer on to me. It's not black and white like most want to act like.

I gave a reason to vote for Kamala! It's because you can trust her, or at least trust her to be consistent. That's something uniquely provided by the Democratic ticket, including VP noms.

pyresword posted...

I don't think voters care as much about any specific right-wing issues as they do about just being able to say they're on Team Conservative. Of course I have no real hard evidence indicating this.

It's not about being on Team Conservative, it's about being on Team Normal. People see Democrats as the party for weirdos and evil elites, while the Republicans are the party of everyday Americans. It's tough to convince voters otherwise, even with the GOP getting crazier every cycle.

Also voting Trump back into office would threaten Europe and possibly beyond if Russia gets out of control. But Bidens administration has been so night and day compared to Trumps that he was NEVER going to win over any of his supporters.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I gave a reason to vote for Kamala! It's because you can trust her, or at least trust her to be consistent. That's something uniquely provided by the Democratic ticket, including VP noms.

Consistency is one of the last words I'd use to describe her tbh, she has basically run full sprint away from some of the positions she was loudest on in 2020.

People change?

Donald Trump consistently only gives a shit about himself.

The Republicans consistently only care about remaining in power and using the stupidity of republican voters to shape the country into a white catholic nation.

If that's what tickles your dick, then please vote for Trump, Corrik.

Corrik7 posted...

I generally prefer Republican administrations.

This is not on the ballot this election.

I've voted for Republicans far more than Democrats overall, and in this election if you prefer conservatism, you vote Kamala. If you support high spending high tax fascism, you can vote Trump. This is obvious given the dozens of high-ranking Rs voting for Kamala, in addition to the many lifelong D voters going for Trump (like Elon, or Trump himself).

Trump's original admin was almost entirely establishment Republicans. He fired anyone who resisted him, and eventually started trying to kill them (Pence) and sometimes actually succeeded (Epstein). Check out Vance's 15 min+ arguments here. He is passionately BEGGING everyone to understand that Trump is not a Republican anymore, that he fired them all, and that he is now going to do only what HE wants.

UshiromiyaEva posted...

The Vance meltdown on CNN is INCREDIBLLLLE.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1850525308107071696?t=37sd3QfE1Z7vUxcOH4YdaQ&s=19

He is restating the core of Project 2025, which is to replace all levels of government with Trump loyalists, which he's been doing successfully since 2014. Especially with Republicans, since he can just snap his fingers and it's done in the primaries, whereas to replace a Democrat it's harder to pull off. All Republican Congress and Governor positions have been replaced by Trumpism, whether it's new people or establishment people like Ted who desperately pretend to support Trump. He killed the Republican party. He killed American conservatism.

Yeah I was going to say that but deleted it for some reason. At the heart of all of these Trump Bad comments is that a Trump administration is unlikely to resemble whatever people think of as a traditional Republican administration.

It's important to note that not only did Donald Trump endorse January 6th as a 'day of love' (Hug Mike Pence! they shouted... wait, no that was a different H word...) that he did nothing to calm his crowds, that he continues to say he won the election when he did not.... but he also tried using an alternate slate of electors to overthrow a fair and free election. That's a line that should not be crossed. It's something HE did, not his supporters (though again, he has said he would pardon the rioters on January 6th) To vote for Trump this time is to endorse all of that. To say that this is not a red line. And let's say Trump gives up power or dies and Vance gives up power... what's to stop someone else from deciding "Hey, you know what? That's a good idea. And what are the people going to do about it? As long as I have my supporters and they're willing to die for me, what do I care?"

You are right that the Republican party needs to swing back to where it is actually supposed to be. A Trump loss would help that, i think.

I actually liked Vances response in that clip despite him calling out my on and off again neo-con views that swing from neo-con to isolationism lol. The interviewer was pretty hostile though.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Consistency is one of the last words I'd use to describe her tbh, she has basically run full sprint away from some of the positions she was loudest on in 2020.

You need to learn more words then, lol.

So let's be clear about what Trump was convicted of. It's not 34 counts of treason or anything close. It's 34 counts related to one course of action in falsifying business records. If Trump wasn't who he is, this would probably not have been charged at all or would have been pled to one misdemeanor count. Also, the matter is on appeal.

Are there more serious charges? Yes, but he hasn't been convicted of those yet.

Corrik7 posted...

The problem with people in this topic is that they are trying to say why Trump is a bad vote instead of really saying why Kamala is a good vote. Not being Trump doesn't really sway me as good enough reasoning. I generally prefer Republican administrations.

Then your answer is that the people in those administrations have overwhelmingly come out in favor of Kamala. People whose judgment you've found sound have said that Kamala is closer to your ideals than Trump is.

I still think sanity will prevail and Trump will be handily defeated. There is a sane, rationale candidate opposing him and I think that's enough.

I'm mentally preparing for the opposite though.

JeffreyRaze posted...

Then your answer is that the people in those administrations have overwhelmingly come out in favor of Kamala. People whose judgment you've found sound have said that Kamala is closer to your ideals than Trump is.

Isnt their reasoning literally anti-trump?Would they be out for her if it was say Nikki at the head of the republican ticket. I think not and think it defeats your point here in comparison to what I said I was looking for.

red_sox_777 posted...

So let's be clear about what Trump was convicted of. It's not 34 counts of treason or anything close. It's 34 counts related to one course of action in falsifying business records. If Trump wasn't who he is, this would probably not have been charged at all or would have been pled to one misdemeanor count. Also, the matter is on appeal.

Are there more serious charges? Yes, but he hasn't been convicted of those yet.

I feel pain from this post

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I gave a reason to vote for Kamala! It's because you can trust her, or at least trust her to be consistent. That's something uniquely provided by the Democratic ticket, including VP noms.

I do not trust any politican of this and have seen major shifts in Kamala's views to try and get votes already and questionable dangles. I do not trust her. Nor think she has been consistent.

Trump is for sure guilty a lot more but his trials keep being pushed off lol

Corrik7 posted...

Isnt their reasoning literally anti-trump?Would they be out for her if it was say Nikki at the head of the republican ticket. I think not and think it defeats your point here in comparison to what I said I was looking for.

A big part of who Trump is is who he wants to surround himself with. His administration consistently grew less competent as people who said no to him got kicked out. The Republicans who support Kamala aren't just saying they prefer her over Trump, they're saying her administration is almost certainly going to be filled with better people. That's the pro-Kamala argument, she's shown herself to pick better people to work with her. Her teams are competent, her VP pick is good, and she's going to carry that into the presidency.

LightningStrikes posted...

Im from the UK originally but I live in Ireland and have British&Irish citizenship. Sorry to stick my nose in lol, but the US election affects us all and there are a lot of commonalities (and I know there are a lot of Canadians discussing in here as well!). Especially more recently with the rise of the internet. People globally are probably more politically similar than they have ever been. Yet I feel as an observer who talks to a lot of Americans and has seen a lot of polling data, the political class is lagging behind the people on a lot of progressive issues. Overwhelming majorities support public healthcare provision and gun control yet the Democrats dont. Surely they can move left without losing the centre.

I think the group of centrist voters that decides American elections generally wants left-leaning economic policies but are socially conservative. The Democrats fail because they offer socially liberally ideas (and are very aggressive about it) but don't really offer poor and working class people anything in the way of economic policies that would benefit them. Or at least not that they believe will benefit them.

JeffreyRaze posted...

A big part of who Trump is is who he wants to surround himself with. His administration consistently grew less competent as people who said no to him got kicked out. The Republicans who support Kamala aren't just saying they prefer her over Trump, they're saying her administration is almost certainly going to be filled with better people. That's the pro-Kamala argument, she's shown herself to pick better people to work with her. Her teams are competent, her VP pick is good, and she's going to carry that into the presidency.

It is a good point.

Corrik7 posted...

The problem with people in this topic is that they are trying to say why Trump is a bad vote instead of really saying why Kamala is a good vote. Not being Trump doesn't really sway me as good enough reasoning. I generally prefer Republican administrations.

And that is the angle my coworker like 5 days ago took on me. He basically said ignore Trump as it's his administration you are voting for and republican ideas. That it's who he gets his ideas from you should be focused on and not Trump himself.

Lets be clear, Trump may have republicans in his ear at briefings but he does as he pleases. Trump had the highest total turnover rate of any Republican president for the last 40 years by something like 15% (Reagan was around 78%, Trump at 92% total turnover).

Trump dismissed and fired people for various reasons. Many others resigned. Republicans you generally prefer did not have a home in Trumps administration unless they fell in line. Look at Mike Pence for example. Trump is getting ideas from Rs but he is only implementing the ones from which he can personally benefit. Im sure hell throw the party a bone or two (see: his Supreme Court justice nominees) but by no means is voting for Trump a vote for the party youve historically voted for.

Its setting an absurdly high standard to say Im a conservative voter, sell me on the Democratic candidate as if this is a normal election so you cant talk about how uniquely unfit, unqualified, senile, self-serving, treasonous and generally morally bankrupt the felonious rapist Im probably going to vote for.

That is why some people here think youre acting in bad faith. I am going to choose to believe youre actually acting in good faith Corrik, but to say Trump is bad but is is not a valid reason in the vote for Harris column, in my opinion shows either a significant lapse in critical thinking or an intentional lack of regard for the countrys future.

Kamala Harris has stated she wants a Republican in her cabinet and I believe her. While many of us dislike that, I think thats one point in her favor. Trump on the other hand thinks the military should be weaponized against liberals.

wallmasterz posted...

Kamala Harris has stated she wants a Republican in her cabinet and I believe her. While many of us dislike that, I think thats one point in her favor. Trump on the other hand thinks the military should be weaponized against liberals.

This is a good thing. I think most administrations usually throw a gimme other party person in their cabinet in some less important position generally.

JeffreyRaze posted...

A big part of who Trump is is who he wants to surround himself with. His administration consistently grew less competent as people who said no to him got kicked out. The Republicans who support Kamala aren't just saying they prefer her over Trump, they're saying her administration is almost certainly going to be filled with better people. That's the pro-Kamala argument, she's shown herself to pick better people to work with her. Her teams are competent, her VP pick is good, and she's going to carry that into the presidency.

Oh I got ninjad.

wallmasterz posted...

That is why some people here think youre acting in bad faith.

I believe people think that because they don't think cuz someone just outright agrees with them that they are in bad faith. I get hammered more at work and my social angles from the other side. And both sides are the same. "Agree with me or you are dumb!!!" It's amusing and annoying.

Oh Kamala wins.

https://youtu.be/wRv2fIx7-II?si=FHaooFFYVIsNBF48

Corrik7 posted...

The problem with people in this topic is that they are trying to say why Trump is a bad vote instead of really saying why Kamala is a good vote. Not being Trump doesn't really sway me as good enough reasoning. I generally prefer Republican administrations.

To the age point I think Kamala being 60 IS a plus for her. It's not just that Trump is super old but also that she's not. Ideally she'd be closer to 50 but yeah.

Really though if you're a fan of traditional Republican values Kamala winning here sends a much stronger message. You're basically battling for party identity here. If Trump wins that's what's running in 2028. The Republican party of old you want is kaput.

UshiromiyaEva posted...

Oh Kamala wins.

https://youtu.be/wRv2fIx7-II?si=FHaooFFYVIsNBF48

Critical misstep moving forward with this. Didnt they see the recent RATE THE GAME result on gamefaqs.gamespot.com?

Oh boy. 102 new replies. Crossing my fingers something good happened.

Edit: Phew. I thought people were killing each other with replies.

wallmasterz posted...

Critical misstep moving forward with this. Didnt they see the recent RATE THE GAME result on gamefaqs.gamespot.com?

Ignoring B8's tastes on games is always objectively correct in terms of broad appeal. We're not even always off the mark so you can't even just do the opposite.