Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 448: North Carolina Blues

(+) Yeah! (+)

PerfectChaosZ posted...

I mean if I tell them a hundred times that the republicans want me dead and then over years they pass laws that make life difficult for me and people like me and then they lose power and life gets a little better and then republicans go well this time when I return to power I want trans people dead even harder and I say look you remember what they did last time please dont let it happen again and the same people reply meh and thats been like a ten to fifteen years span of time its hard not to get a little upset and vilify those people. Then they say my feelings are hurt I see why they want you dead! Like?

Those specific people can go fuck themselves. If it helps.

I am not always talking about specific people that you've tried to reach out to and more broadly. That is very fucked up

I'm not saying it's particularly the responsibility of trans people to be level headed. It would help, particularly with people who are not actively being adversarial and hateful, but I think that's an unreasonable ask.

But the majority of people sympathetic towards the movement and speaking out are not trans, just statistically speaking, and as such should be able to cool down a bit. But they don't. They preach and get off on crowing about what great people they are instead.

I'm just saying most of the country is suffering in one way or another and it's important to realize that before being angry at everyone who voted Trump wholesale. The politicians are the enemy not the Republican voters.

Lopen posted...

Apathy can be more dangerous than hate but it's also easier to cure than hate

There's already a cure for bigotry. Some punches!

MLK Jr once remarked that white moderates who preferred civility over justice were just as much a danger to society as the super-racists.

It's nice to say for a quote-- it's at odds with MLK's general approach though. Civil disobedience was basically the backbone of what MLK did.

Lopen posted...

I'm just saying most of the country is suffering in one way or another and it's important to realize that before being angry at everyone who voted Trump wholesale. The politicians are the enemy not the Republican voters.

Nah the voters scare me way more than Trump himself does at least. Having said that, I think theres a bigger chance that Trump voters turn on him this time, with the caveat that young white men might be a complete lost cause.

Honestly it's important to realize the underlying rhetoric in that quote and MLK Jr in general.

It wasn't about burying the apathetic as terrible people, it was about galvanizing them to not be apathetic. Very different approach to what we have these days.

Lopen posted...

I just think the "deplorables" rhetoric that's seeping into all the circles where this is a discussion point is really crushing any hope at change any time soon.

Well that anger is very clearly not going away any time soon. Basically every Democrat I know IRL including very very moderate ones are at a point of "fuck this country full of awful people" and admittedly that's my bubble, but it wasn't there in 2004 or 2016 or 2020 and it is there now. So given that that anger is 1) real and 2) not going away, how do we forge a path forward anyway?

Kenri posted...

Well that anger is very clearly not going away any time soon. Basically every Democrat I know IRL including very very moderate ones are at a point of "fuck this country full of awful people" and admittedly that's my bubble, but it wasn't there in 2004 or 2016 or 2020 and it is there now. So given that that anger is 1) real and 2) not going away, how do we forge a path forward anyway?

Shoot ceos until morale improves

I'm not sure issues like racism and transphobia have CEOs in the same way companies do.

Actually transphobia definitely does have one but I guarantee shooting her would make things worse, at least in the short-term.

https://twitter.com/emmavigeland/status/1867606437813252444?s=46&t=v9nzYLLBIiNYrqldFs9NWQ

What I want to say will probably get me banned.

FFDragon posted...

can you appeal it so the mall cop knows that they're wrong?

They reversed it! But the topic is still gone and I never lost Karma in the first place, so it's just a moral victory, I guess lol.

I think every person who tries their best to humanize the "awful people" helps. It's not always, and is fact rarely, about you. Which is an important thing to keep in mind in life, just in general.

Look into the Trump campaign promises, see what the merits were that weren't rooted in bigotry, racism, and hate, try to find Democratic (or even Republican) candidates that can deliver on those while not being hateful and voice support of those people.

I think realizing that it quite literally is a smokescreen is something that can give the voting public common ground even if they disagree on specifics or the fervor with which they care about specifics, which is why I try to spread that message.

I mean y'all are roasting foolmo for his reaction to the NDAA but I think if you viewed it for a "generally bad for human rights as a whole and also trans rights specifically due to this part" it'd be a lot better for finding common ground to rally against than specifically highlighting the trans stuff to the exclusion of everhthing else.

Being angry about it is fine but if that's the energy you project it's self-sabotaging.

SirChris posted...

Shoot ceos until morale improves

Tl;dr this

Kenri posted...

I'm not sure issues like racism and transphobia have CEOs in the same way companies do.

Sure they do. Look at the donors to your favorite hateful politician I'm sure you'll find some good CEOs to kill.

Like I'm (mostly) not saying this to be funny-- the more bodies we have the more people will realize it IS a smokescreen (democrats and republicans are both behind Luigi in the UHC Ceo thing it isnt a partisan issue) and a little fear will go a long way towards making those at the top who are pushing these agendas entirely to cause strife among the peasants.

People are roasting Foolmo because he's kinda erroneously lumping people together as not caring about anything other than trans issues then putting himself above everything else. It's the usual strawmanning that everyone attacking people in this topic uses - yourself included.

Also, Lopen, while "not everyone who voted R is a deplorable" is a kind sentiment, you have to also recognize that Trump winning an election on the back of anti-trans agenda has an effect on the kids. Trump's first term saw his rhetoric become commonplace in adolescent boys, and that's partially why we've seen a wave of strong alt-right beliefs in Gen Z.

Not everyone who voted Trump is anti-trans, but they're complicit in spreading those views to the next generation.

I mean there are truly awful CEOs/politicians, no one is questioning that, but they're largely being awful because they think it'll make them rich or powerful. They're downstream from ordinary people, who are the ones actually approving of and incentivizing being hateful, denying medical care, raising prices, etc.

Like ideologically I just don't agree that Big Men vs. Lone Gunmen is the driving force of history. I'm not going to hand-wring when a CEO's chickens come home to roost but I'm pretty unconvinced that it will cause meaningful change, either. If 10k-100k people woke up tomorrow and decided to go shoot CEOs then maybe.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

you have to also recognize that Trump winning an election on the back of anti-trans agenda

I don't recognize this happened, no. On the back implies it was a core reason he got votes. I do not believe this is the case.

If core means top 3 it probably wasn't, if core means top 10 then I think there's a good chance it was.

But anti-immigrant sentiment was absolutely a core reason he got votes, so.

Why alt right is becoming more popular is because of the polarizing rhetoric put in place by both sides lately. Has honestly more to do with Hillary than Trump

Kenri posted...

But anti-immigrant sentiment was absolutely a core reason he got votes, so.

Granzon has explained why this isn't based in racism many times and you just lalalala

Lopen posted...

I don't recognize this happened, no. On the back implies it was a core reason he got votes. I do not believe this is the case.

You're right. But I think you're fixated on scolding people here for saying things in anger. The voting public is not the root of the problem. I think that's pretty easy to agree to, right? But when people are angry, they want to complain, and the voting public does kind of determine the election result. You say that hatred isn't the driving force for Trump voters, well, you know what else isn't? That people who they don't know are judging their moral caliber on the Internet. Not having any damn money is a slightly more significant issue.

Lopen posted...

Why alt right is becoming more popular is because of the polarizing rhetoric put in place by both sides lately. Has honestly more to do with Hillary than Trump

alt right is becoming more popular because billions of dollars is being poured to make it happen because for the most part it suits the business interests of the elite.

There is a gross double standard that goes on between what is considered polarizing from the left (broadly speaking) and the right.

I am no hillary fan but she's not the cause of this tbh. She just was particularly inept

Lopen posted...

Granzon has explained why this isn't based in racism many times and you just lalalala

His explanations are nonsense and, themselves, based on racism, and I don't "lalala" I responded to basically all of them.

Also I don't give a shit if it comes from racism initially or not; the result is racism, and subsequently division between poor people who share common interests. You keep talking about smokescreens that hide the real enemy: here is probably the single biggest one, historically and in 2024.

paperwarior posted...

You say that hatred isn't the driving force for Trump voters, well, you know what else isn't? That people who they don't know are judging their moral caliber on the Internet.

I actually don't agree with this. People are inherently defensive and tend to consider people calling them out "the enemy"

Like I'm not saying their hate of moral fiber call outs is literally the driving force, but some random Dem voters on the internet spreading rhetoric telling a genuinely undecided voter how they're terrible people for considering voting Trump? I do see it being more likely they just say "you know what? Fuck you" and voting Trump than making an actual effort at determing the better candidate.

Kenri posted...

You keep talking about smokescreens that hide the real enemy: here is probably the single biggest one, historically and in 2024.

Immigration, abortion, and trans rights are probably the top 3 smokescreen issues yeah.

Lopen posted...

I don't recognize this happened, no. On the back implies it was a core reason he got votes. I do not believe this is the case.

Sure, but that's inconsequential. It was their primary media message, is my point.

Lopen posted...

Like I'm not saying their hate of moral fiber call outs is literally the driving force, but some random Dem voters on the internet spreading rhetoric telling a genuinely undecided voter how they're terrible people for considering voting Trump? I do see it being more likely they just say "you know what? Fuck you" and voting Trump than making an actual effort at determing the better candidate.

I guess that follows, but this is such a vicious rhetorical atmosphere that it still kind of seems like tunnel vision to focus on that specific scenario.

Lopen posted...

I actually don't agree with this. People are inherently defensive and tend to consider people calling them out "the enemy"

Like I'm not saying their hate of moral fiber call outs is literally the driving force, but some random Dem voters on the internet spreading rhetoric telling a genuinely undecided voter how they're terrible people for considering voting Trump? I do see it being more likely they just say "you know what? Fuck you" and voting Trump than making an actual effort at determing the better candidate.

This is why I say the general public is more to blame than politicians lmao

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Sure, but that's inconsequential. It was their primary media message, is my point.

I think THAT is inconsequential. The media is more a tool to manipulate older people at this point.

Social media plants and smokescreens are how adolescents are poisoned. They don't give a shit about the media. Literally people like many of this topic's regulars are the poison.

Lopen posted...

I think THAT is inconsequential. The media is more a tool to manipulate older people at this point.

Social media plants and smokescreens are how adolescents are poisoned. They don't give a shit about the media. Literally people like many of this topic's regulars are the poison.

Yeah, the same political actors are using all these tools to reach all their demographics. What's your point?

Kenri posted...

This is why I say the general public is more to blame than politicians lmao

I agree in a way? But it's both sides and the politicians/the elite are manipulating it to be that way.

paperwarior posted...

Yeah, the same political actors are using all these tools to reach all their demographics. What's your point?

My point is you control you and you don't have to help in the cycle of hate. The more people that don't play into the hand of the manipulators and try to be genuinely empathic for people as a whole the less it works.

Lopen posted...

I think THAT is inconsequential. The media is more a tool to manipulate older people at this point.

Social media plants and smokescreens are how adolescents are poisoned. They don't give a shit about the media. Literally people like many of this topic's regulars are the poison.

It doesn't matter that you think that, because you're wrong. Like, insanely so

Yeah I guess fox news watch parties are all the rage for teens these days

Lopen, if you think Fox News is the only place that features Republican political ads, then you probably should see a cranial specialist.

That's not me trying to be insulting, it's legitimate medical advice for what appears to be a serious condition.

Kids run ad blockers and stuff these days.

I just don't really think those ads work as well as you think they do on the target audience you think they do. "Insanely wrong" is based on literally nothing.

Restaurants don't run ad blockers. Parents don't run ad blockers on their TVs. Many kids aren't wise enough to download ad blockers for YouTube and Twitch, or staying ahead because those places have workarounds for ad blockers anyway.

I taught high schoolers for almost the entirety of the first Trump administration. I've seen firsthand how the rhetoric spreads.

Is social media the bigger attention grabber to these kids? Maybe, though I'm pretty sure the answer is still YouTube.

Regardless, I would ask if you can tell me the place/context I saw the greatest amount of political ads this year.

Lopen posted...

Kids run ad blockers and stuff these days.

30 year olds run ad blockers. Kids run Chrome with default settings. Sorry bud you're out of touch on this one.

There's a sizable portion of the Youtube community that puts out videos on the ads that run on their videos precisely because kids do not block ads and are often suckered into shady deals through what they see between their favorite Elsa-Spider-Man/PewDiePie/Kwebblekop brainrot.

Kenri posted...

I'm not sure issues like racism and transphobia have CEOs in the same way companies do.

Actually transphobia definitely does have one but I guarantee shooting her would make things worse, at least in the short-term.

no I mean, the killing of that ceo is the one thing i've seen unite the left and the right online in a long time lol. Not everyone, and there's no hope for bigots, but for a brief moment people were like 'I hate healthcare a lot more than I could ever hate trans people'

Kids are savvier than you think these days. You thinking it spreads through youtube ads is just confirmation bias because youve seen the rhetoric spread and you're guessing. I mean kids are just people-- has a political ad ever changed how you felt about anything, even when you were that young?

Now how about someone calling you an asshole?

Lopen posted...

Kids are savvier than you think these days. You thinking it spreads through youtube ads is just confirmation bias because youve seen the rhetoric spread and you're guessing. I mean kids are just people-- has a political ad ever changed how you felt about anything, even when you were that young?

Now how about someone calling you an asshole?

Lopen posted...

Kids are savvier than you think these days. You thinking it spreads through youtube ads is just confirmation bias because youve seen the rhetoric spread and you're guessing. I mean kids are just people-- has a political ad ever changed how you felt about anything, even when you were that young?

Now how about someone calling you an asshole?

It's a bit more complicated than that. The alt right takes advantage of the fact that many people on the left are preoccupied giving a shit about marginalized minorities to tell them that they arent being listened to.

It's almost like bernie's plan to take care of all working class americans would have probably worked better than doubling down on identity politics from an optics pov while doing little to actually help those some minorities

im not bitter you're bitter

https://www.emarketer.com/content/kids-remember-seeing-ads-on-youtube-over-streaming-tiktok

Here's stats.

https://backlinko.com/ad-blockers-users

Here's more stats.

Crazy how easy it is to debunk Lopen with two seconds of research.

Lopen posted...

Kids are savvier than you think these days. You thinking it spreads through youtube ads is just confirmation bias because youve seen the rhetoric spread and you're guessing. I mean kids are just people-- has a political ad ever changed how you felt about anything, even when you were that young?

Now how about someone calling you an asshole?

I repeat - can you guess the context where I saw the greatest amount of political ads this year?

Yes I know you saw them

Why are you so convinced they did anything

scarletspeed7 posted...

https://backlinko.com/ad-blockers-users

Here's more stats.

Crazy how easy it is to debunk Lopen with two seconds of research.

Amusing that you think that debunks me?