Current Events > In retrospect, making the mcu so interconnected was a mistake

(+) Yeah! (+)

I don't understand people complaining about having to "watch everything" when we live in an age of Youtube at our literal fingertips to recap everything you need to know for you.

I remember the movies from the 80s/90s until Iron Man when very little was connected within Superhero movies. I remember the feeling when realizing that they were going to start a connected universe, and how amazing it felt in the theater with the first Avengers movie. Some of y'all just take for granted how great some of these movies have been with characters that are now interacting because it's old news. I still think it's awesome they've accomplished what they want to accomplish.

People saying "I have to watch everything to understand the latest movie" are just wrong.

AlCalavicci posted...

I don't understand people complaining about having to "watch everything" when we live in an age of Youtube at our literal fingertips to recap everything you need to know for you.

I remember the movies from the 80s/90s until Iron Man when very little was connected within Superhero movies. I remember the feeling when realizing that they were going to start a connected universe, and how amazing it felt in the theater with the first Avengers movie. Some of y'all just take for granted how great some of these movies have been with characters that are now interacting because it's old news. I still think it's awesome they've accomplished what they want to accomplish.

People saying "I have to watch everything to understand the latest movie" are just wrong.

Because the one thing people want to do before watching a new movie is watching recaps for other movies just to understand what is going on.

MCU wanted to create a bunch of spin off properties and wanted to make sure people would watch them so they decided to integrate TV shows into the movies and vice versa. Then at the end of movies or shows they would be like "catch X in the upcoming Y movie/show". But all it did was turn off the casual movie watcher.

The real problem is they never explained where some heroes were during shit that could have ended the world

1NfamousACE_2 posted...

The real problem is they never explained where some heroes were during shit that could have ended the world

That happens in the comics too. Not every hero is involved to stop every threat to NYC/America/Earth/the universe

There are so many heroes in the comics. Even more than in the movies and they can't put everyone in every story

Charged151 posted...

Something like Wandavision on the other hand is needed to understand what is going on (chief of all why Wanda changed) in Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness.

I don't know if I fully agree with this. Wandavision expands on it and shows how she has changed and how she's dealing with things, but the reason for WHY she changed is still Vision ded.

It adds more to the plot, but it's not absolutely necessary. You don't need to know all the particulars to enjoy Multiverse.

_Marka_Ragnos_ posted...

Do people forget that the MCU has had TV shows for like 11 years in canon? You can ignore the TV shows just like you could ignore agents of shield when they came out in 2013 if you want.

The older TV shows weren't part of the canon they were more like auxiliary stuff you could ignore. Outside of a subtle nod here and there the movies never referenced anything in them.

It's the Disney+ shows that are the problem.

It definitely has kept me out. Same with new Star Wars stuff. I don't want to jump ahead when I haven't seen the previous movies, but I also don't want to have to binge watch a bunch of movies just to enjoy this one

Tmaster148 posted...

But all it did was turn off the casual movie watcher.

This isn't true

Zikten posted...

They successfully convinced people that you have to watch everything to understand whats going on. As the franchise grew, it became more and more work for newcomers to jump into the mcu. Now it has the same problem as the comics. People see the vast amount of material and just lose interest

I watched IM, Thor, CA, Avengers, winter soldier, AoU, antman, and Dr. Strange. That's it. No IM2 or 3, the remaining Thor movies, etc. I think youtube has helped me understand the events post AOU. Wandavision and Loki tv shows, they tie up loose ends so worth watching

You can watch mostly highlights and get caught up very easily

Edit:Forgot the first GOTG

The connection was cool. The multiverse is/was bullshit.

Tyranthraxus posted...

It was fine until they started adding TV shows to the canon.

Yup. The first 3 phases were a wonderful accomplishment and told a cohesive story by adding 1 new piece to the overall arc every 4 or 5 months.

The TV shows were too much.

I'd still contend that I don't think the TV shows scare the average movie goer off. Maybe some of those that were more intently following every detail, hypothesizing, and so on, but your average movie goer doesn't do that. They typically don't care if they miss details, as long as they get the gist.

What hurt the MCU is most likely just that they wrapped up their big, engaging storyline, and a lot of the characters people grew to love were no longer around. That caused a lot of casual voters to just go "That was great! Time to find something else." because they're no longer following the exploits of Iron Man, the original Captain America, and so on. That story just kinda decisively wrapped up.

And it logically makes sense, since GotG3 did very well. Yes, Antman and Captain Marvel didn't do as well, but they were never really major characters to begin with, in that storyline, and even their pre-Endgame movies tended to not do as well as the bigger names. Meanwhile, Multiverse of Madness did extremely well, because it featured characters people were very into that also had more of an impact in the previous storyline.

VeggetaX posted...

What's so shocking about it? People love to hyper analyze movies and comics.

More sad than shocking. If you feel watching a tv show or movie is work, then you dont know what work is.

I personally stopped caring after Endgame. Theyre just milking this shit now

Devilanse333 posted...

More sad than shocking. If you feel watching a tv show or movie is work, then you dont know what work is.

And to make matters worse, people keep saying there are a lot of TV shows when there aren't any at all. Just movies and streaming series.

1. With the exception of Wandavision, you do not need to have watched any of D+ shows.

2. Interconnection was fine, as they only loosely connected between solo movies.

3. The mediocre writing and MCU fatigue, following Endgame is what really hurt them.

Captain America 4 and The Thunderbolts are both heavily tied to The Falcon & Winter Soilder but most people watching won't care

connecting them was good, putting out shitty movies/characters after no way home was not

This isnt the least bit true. Literally almost all MCU media outside the main movies were either non canon or irrelevant to the point of them minus well being non canon.

Where Marvel fucked up though was NOT officially admitting to that until around endgame.

Which not only pissed off fans who wasted time investing in the tv shows. And hoping those stocks would pay off someday But undermined all future MCU tie ins and spin offs also.

Prismsblade posted...

Where Marvel fucked up though was NOT officially admitting to that until around endgame.

The pre endgame stuff doesn't really matter. It's the Disney+ stuff. You've got whole fucking movies like Black Widow that are literally just commercials for Disney+

Theres a whole lot of things feeding into why its not as good now. The multiverse makes it feel like there are no stakes. Its not as cohesive and connected as it used to be because theres no character tying it together like Fury did in the early stages. Waits between sequels are longer.

But ultimately, theres been a large amount of bad products. Dont get me wrong, some of the films before Endgame were pretty bad too, but every phase had something good going on (and felt like a phase). Weve had mostly disappointing films since Endgame (GotG3 knocked it out the park, but thats an anomaly) and none of the TV shows have been worth the time it takes to watch them. The brand is suffering because the quality simply isnt there reliably enough.

TheFuzz3451 posted...

MCU asks its fans to do homework, and people have better things to do than homework, especially for what is supposed to be entertainment

I get that people lost interest in the MCU or dont want to get Disney+, but watching one episode a week isnt difficult.

ViewtifulGrave posted...

I get that people lost interest in the MCU or dont want to get Disney+, but watching one episode a week isnt difficult.

No one is saying it's difficult. But it's more time and money dedicated to the MCU and with the current phase of the MCU being a lot of duds and the sheer amount of series and movies compared to previous phases, a lot of people are simply passing as it's not worth it to them.

Gamespoht posted...

Captain America 4 and The Thunderbolts are both heavily tied to The Falcon & Winter Soilder but most people watching won't care

we'll have to wait till Cap 4 releases to know how heavily tied they are. Half of the D+ shows are connected to a larger story, but they aren't really required watching. Loki plays into Antman3 and Deadpool 3, but has absolutely 0 to do with either story.

The fact that people are saying that its homework or a chore to watch the D+ shows seems to imply that sentiment.

Like I said I get that people lost interest or dont want to pay for D+.

Tyranthraxus posted...

The pre endgame stuff doesn't really matter. It's the Disney+ stuff. You've got whole fucking movies like Black Widow that are literally just commercials for Disney+

Even the Disney+ stuff really doesnt matter. I remember reading somewhere that apparently Moon Knight isnt even canon because they couldnt figure out how to tie him in. Idk if thats true or not but I can certainly believe it since the series has absolutely nothing to do with anything else in the MCU. Spoilers for MK below

You mean to tell me the Gods literally turned back the night sky and in the final episode giant versions of them were just straight up punching each other and not a single Avenger investigated that shit?

The only reference I remember to the greater universe was them mentioning the ancestral plane from from Black Panther

Tyranthraxus posted...

It was fine until they started adding TV shows to the canon.

It was fine when they had "backbone" movies. The "important" ones to see, to keep up with the main plot. The rest, while fun, were largely supplemental.

We haven't had a "backbone" movie since Endgame. Everything is a directionless, meandering nothingburger.

The "oh, it's just like phase 1 again, it's all SETUP" excuse has long since run out. It's been six fucking years since Endgame. MCU needs to give us something with some meat on its bones, and stop flailing around with disconnected oneshots.

The Multiverse Saga hasn't had the same story structure as the Infinity Stones Saga. They abandoned it because they thought everyone would eat up anything they produced following the success of Infinity War and Endgame. I have no doubt that the Russo's will somehow salvage this for Marvel/Disney directing the next big payoff films. But hopefully they learn from this and go back to maping out the overall story better. Especially with the X-Men and Mutants somehow getting introduced into the MCU for the next Saga.

XxKrazyChaosxX posted...

The Multiverse Saga hasn't had the same story structure as the Infinity Stones Saga. They abandoned it because they thought everyone would eat up anything they produced following the success of Infinity War and Endgame. I have no doubt that the Russo's will somehow salvage this for Marvel/Disney directing the next big payoff films. But hopefully they learn from this and go back to maping out the overall story better. Especially with the X-Men and Mutants somehow getting introduced into the MCU for the next Saga.

To be fair, they had stuff mapped out until Jonathan Majors happened, and then they just scrapped pretty much all of it.

It wasn't a mistake. They created a franchise empire worth more money than god and dethroned James Cameron from the highest grossing movie records.

Nothing is infinitely sustainable though. MCU will likely never make Endgame money again, but that doesn't mean it's not profitable enough to keep going.

That all out of the way though I agree. I don't really care for how intertwined these "universes" are. When every project is a team-up of sorts, it makes the title character feel diluted.

I think y'all are overestimating the number of people who are compelled to watch all of the MCU. I'm sure a ton of people saw Infinity War and even Endgame as their first MCU movie just because they were such big cultural films.

You also don't need to see the TV shows to watch the movies. Wandavision to MoM is the closest and even then you just need to accept that Wanda had kids and now she doesn't.

I think the type of people that come to this website and especially this board are the ones who have a kind of completionist urge to see all of the content even if it's not necessary, so we assume everyone is like that. But I think most people aren't going to care.

I remember way back in high school chatting with a hotel concierge about the Thor movie that was gonna come out soon and how there was gonna be an Avengers movie in a few years that'll link all the previous movies together. This was all before it was expected that this would be a huge super-franchise, because we were just coming off of the Incredible Hulk movie, so before everything really took off. If you think that's a mistake, you're insane, considering how big it got.

I also don't really get the "I can't just watch Captain America without watching the all the other MCU movies." You literally can, the only reason you think you can't is that you haven't because you read somewhere that you're not supposed to. Just watch it, who cares.

If you don't wanna watch all the movies, just skip around. Like half of the content isn't amazing anyways. I got MCU-fatigued around the time She-Hulk came out and still haven't gotten around to The Marvels.

I just don't get the energy of "they should cater more to people who don't like or pay for the movies in the first place", even though there was already enough people interested to make the first three Phases.

Tyranthraxus posted...

It was fine until they started adding TV shows to the canon.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/05b88872.jpg

Tyranthraxus posted...

It was fine until they started adding TV shows to the canon.

"Subscribe to Disney+ if you don't want to be confused by the very important Disney+ exclusive TV series references in the movies!"

_Marka_Ragnos_ posted...

Do people forget that the MCU has had TV shows for like 11 years in canon? You can ignore the TV shows just like you could ignore agents of shield when they came out in 2013 if you want.

The recent burst of TV shows since Wandavision have been more relevant to the movies than the TV shows which were definitely kept separate on their half of the universe so to speak. Imagine trying to figure out WTF was going on with Wanda in MoM without having watched Wandavision. The new Captain America movie will also pretty much demand you watch Falcon and the Winter Soldier and Thunderbolts will definitely be more entertaining having watched Hawkeye. The last one is the can of worms because I feel bad for anyone that watched Hawkeye and missed out on Kingpin's return in that show without having watched the Daredevil portion of the MCU which is 11 seasons across 5 shows and also a miniseries.

PurestProdigy posted...

Imagine trying to figure out WTF was going on with Wanda in MoM without having watched Wandavision

Wanda made magic kids, they died, and she found an evil magic book. MoM lays that out fine by context clues if nothing else.

PurestProdigy posted...

The new Captain America movie will also pretty much demand you watch Falcon and the Winter Soldier

Why? Is it just Bradley? Cuz again, that's one line of dialogue. "He was a supersoldier, but they refused to make him Captain America because he was black and it was the 60s."

I'd argue Eternals is going to be more of a requirement to explain the big-ass statue in the ocean and even then, I think we've reached the point in the MCU where people will accept that some weird shit in a movie they didn't see made a big-ass statue in the ocean.

PurestProdigy posted...

Thunderbolts will definitely be more entertaining having watched Hawkeye

Yelena doesn't really do much beyond meeting Kate in that series, I don't see how it's relevant to Thunderbolts.

PurestProdigy posted...

The last one is the can of worms because I feel bad for anyone that watched Hawkeye and missed out on Kingpin's return in that show without having watched the Daredevil portion of the MCU which is 11 seasons across 5 shows and also a miniseries.

Daredevil is completely immaterial to Hawkeye. You don't need to know Kingpin and Daredevil's whole beef to just appreciate that he's a big fat angry mob boss which is all the knowledge that's required for the story Hawkeye is telling.

This is the kinda thing I'm talking about. All of these connections and things are cool, but they're not needed.

MorganTJ posted...

I also don't really get the "I can't just watch Captain America without watching the all the other MCU movies." You literally can, the only reason you think you can't is that you haven't because you read somewhere that you're not supposed to. Just watch it, who cares.

Oh, that's a relief. All this time, I thought they wouldn't let me in at the theater or they'd put a warrant out for my arrest, or Disney+ would refuse to play the movie.

Tyranthraxus posted...

The older TV shows weren't part of the canon they were more like auxiliary stuff you could ignore. Outside of a subtle nod here and there the movies never referenced anything in them.

It's the Disney+ shows that are the problem.

For sure. I know there were people who were upset that characters from the Netflix shows weren't showing up in the movies but it was kind of better to keep some separation between them. The shows were there if you wanted more Marvel content but you could also ignore them and it would have no impact on the experience you had when you went to see the next movie.

Even if the Disney+ shows aren't absolutely necessary viewing to understand the movies, when the shows and movies are so interconnected there's definitely a perception that if you haven't watched the shows then when you go to see the next movie you're going to have a lesser experience than someone who has. The degree to which that's true varies depending on the movie but just that perception is not a good thing.

Another bad thing about being an audience member is that once you think one of the movies is so god damn good(Winter Solider) you expect every single movie after that to be just as good or better or else it'll suck. Once your expectation gets to that point you become unreasonable.

TC has the right of it. I missed the boat on most movies and have no desire to watch like ten before I can see the last avengers

VeggetaX posted...

Another bad thing about being an audience member is that once you think one of the movies is so god damn good(Winter Solider) you expect every single movie after that to be just as good or better or else it'll suck. Once your expectation gets to that point you become unreasonable.

agreed. I think this has caused ppl forget how many bad/boring MCU movies existed pre-Endgame.

I don't think it's a terrible mistake, but it does overkill the cow.

Once the story reaches the appropriate climax people are often worn out.

SMT_Masochist posted...

The connection was cool. The multiverse is/was bullshit.

I nope'd out the exact picosecond I heard this was going to be a thing.

"Dr. Strange and the WHAT? Have these people even read their own comics?!"

So Endgame was the End for me, lol. Screw having nine Thors and Spider-Man giving birth to himself and the Evil Hawkeye from Universe 29 teaming up with the other Evil Hawkeye from Universe 17 to steal the ultranice Iron Man of Universe 30's suit that runs on woozhtneoium, which happens to be the good Magneto of Universe 2's one weakness but was only formed in Universe 46 when Spider-Man's unique radioactive blood gore splattered into a portal to Dimension Z and fused the the vibranium shield as it was being forged and corrupted the

HELL NO.

The TV shows and post EG movies are crawling towards something (Thunderbolts, the Young Avengers, etc.), it's just taking a LONG time to get there

TIL keeping up with 2 or 3 6-8 episode tv shows a year is too much god damn work.

Well, yeah. Especially when they suck anyway. Not everyone has mountains of free time. What's an episode? An hour? 40 min? You expect me to spend 8-24 hours a year on context for something I only have a passing interest in to begin with? That's like 2-3 weeks' worth of spare time.

Were_Wyrm posted...

TIL keeping up with 2 or 3 6-8 episode tv shows a year is too much god damn work.

Well yeah dude not everyone has all the time in the world to sit down and watch a shitty superhero show. My free time is more and more precious the older I get and Id rather not spend it watching something mediocre just for a bit of extra context. The fact that thats ridiculous to you is kinda strange if Im being honest

"I have no time to watch this 6 hour show! Anyways, back to my 67th play through of Skyrim..."

Euripides posted...

"I have no time to watch this 6 hour show! Anyways, back to my 67th play through of Skyrim..."

People value spending their time on different things.