Current Events > I became agnostic about a year ago today and it's crazy to think how much has

(+) Yeah! (+)

Jagus posted...

I dont think anyone should get away with doing horrible things.

Then thats on us to work to change the system so they dont get to keep doing horrible things. Saying a god will take care of it later just means they can get away with whatever they want while they are alive.

Uh I still believe in having a justice system you guys? But I dont think a human judge can ever be as fully just as someone all-knowing and kind though.

kind9 posted...

I agree, but why extend their punishment to some imagined afterlife instead of this one where you know it actually counts?

Who is gonna bring the perpetrators of the Palestinian Genocide to justice? Ill wait.

Jagus posted...

Who is gonna bring the perpetrators of the Palestinian Genocide to justice? Ill wait.

Nobody if we just assume a god will do it later. That's the point. The only punishment they will actually receive is if we pressure it to happen ourselves while they are still alive.

Jagus posted...

Uh I still believe in having a justice system you guys? But I dont think a human judge can ever be as fully just as someone all-knowing and kind though.

So question. If we punish someone by sending them to jail for the rest of their lives, do you think they should still go to hell?

bobbycorwin posted...

Nobody if we just assume a god will do it later. That's the point. The only punishment they will actually receive is if we pressure it to happen ourselves while they are still alive.

Those beliefs arent mutually exclusive at all. I literally want both.

bobbycorwin posted...

So question. If we punish someone by sending them to jail for the rest of their lives, do you think they should still go to hell?

Depends on what they did. If they killed someone absolutely.

Jagus posted...

Its temporary for Muslims generally at least. Thats what inspired me.

I dont think any one should go to hell for being gay anyway lol . Also hell is tiered for badness, at least in Islam

That implies that 2 people could do the same thing, but have different punishments based purely on whether one found arguments for Islam convincing or not. I think that's pretty unfair as a concept.

I'll be blunt, I don't think I've seen any form of heaven and hell that's remotely fair. It's yet another method of creating and controlling an in group.

reincarnator07 posted...

That implies that 2 people could do the same thing, but have different punishments based purely on whether one found arguments for Islam convincing or not. I think that's pretty unfair as a concept.

I'll be blunt, I don't think I've seen any form of heaven and hell that's remotely fair. It's yet another method of creating and controlling an in group.

Yeah lol. Thats why Im agnostic and have my own version of Heaven and Hell. Hell is temporary for everyone.

Jagus posted...

Those beliefs arent mutually exclusive at all. I literally want both.

Do we both agree that our for profit health insurance model is a scam and allows people to become filthy rich by exploiting the people they are supposed to be helping?

Nobody becomes the CEO of a health insurance company by being a good person. You have to be a monster to take something like healthcare and turning into a profitable business that makes shareholders a lot of money. Until Luigi did what he did there was absolutely no backlash against them. They go away with doing whatever they wanted with impunity, and we just accepted it.

Why? Why did we as a society believe that it was okay for them to act like that when we want to see evil people punished for being evil? What is it about our belief structure that allowed us to just accept it with the idea that evil people would be punished eventually?

You see, you can hold both of those beliefs simultaneously, but there are cases where your belief in some god doting out punishment eventually that make you less concerned about what they are doing while alive.

Jagus posted...

Yeah lol. Thats why Im agnostic and have my own version of Heaven and Hell. Hell is temporary for everyone.

You do realize you are inventing your own religion then, right?

Except thats factually not true because Im right here and a refutation of your belief. Im not less concerned about real life because I believe someone deserves to go to Hell, that doesnt even make any sense.

bobbycorwin posted...

You do realize you are inventing your own religion then, right?

Yes? Everyone has their own personal beliefs if theyre honest about it.

Jagus posted...

Yes? Everyone has their own personal beliefs if theyre honest about it.

Yeah but usually you want your beliefs to be based on reason, logic, empirical evidence etc, but you admitted that yours are based purely on feelings. That's like religious faith.

My beliefs are based on reason except the afterlife and theres nothing wrong with that.

Also its not faith, but hope.

Jagus posted...

Yes? Everyone has their own personal beliefs if theyre honest about it.

I went from fundamentalist Christian to atheist, so I don't really understand the concept of believing in something that you admit to making up.

It makes life happier and more hopeful and fun. I like living by my own fantasies.

I think I understand. You are not saying you believe hell is real, you are just saying you want hell to be real?

Thats correct.

Jagus posted...

My beliefs are based on reason except the afterlife and theres nothing wrong with that.

I'm not trying to fault you for your beliefs, I'm really trying to understand how an agnostic clings to religious beliefs. I thought agnosticism was about suspending beliefs in things that are beyond human knowledge and incapable of proof.

Jagus posted...

Also its not faith, but hope.

Like the assurance of things hoped for and evidence of things not seen? It sounds like religious faith to me. You even admit you put reason on the back seat for your belief. Faith without reason is religious faith.

Being hopeful does not come from only religion or faith.

I dont think its confusing, Im an agnostic hoping for the best possible outcome.

kind9 posted...

I'm not trying to fault you for your beliefs, I'm really trying to understand how an agnostic clings to religious beliefs. I thought agnosticism was about suspending beliefs in things that are beyond human knowledge and incapable of proof.

An agnostic still believes in a god, they just don't know which god.

The way I look at it is let's say there is an enclosed room nobody can see inside or take any measurement of what is inside it. A theist is the type that would say that there is a unicorn in there and they also know the exact color of it. Some would say it's blue, some would say it's yellow, some would say it's orange etc.

An agnostic would agree that there is a unicorn in there, but that they don't know the color. That's really the only difference.

An atheist, on the other hand, are the ones who would say that they won't believe there is a unicorn in there until they can see proof of it.

Im open to supernatural things existing, but given past experiences I dont think they exist except free will and consciousness.

Why do you think free will and consciousness are supernatural?

Because apparently according to science they dont exist. lol I dont get it either

What science says they don't exist?

bobbycorwin posted...

An agnostic still believes in a god, they just don't know which god.

I know there is an agnostic-theism but the vast majority of agnostics past and present are atheists. Atheists were agnostics long before TH Huxley coined that word. I think most agnostics just don't want to carry the baggage of the label atheist.

Everything Ive read from discussions here and Reddit. Apparently theyre illusions or something and there was some experiment done that proved free will could be simulated with electrical rods or something on the brain. Idk

Jagus posted...

Being hopeful does not come from only religion or faith.

I dont think its confusing, Im an agnostic hoping for the best possible outcome.

Ok but earlier you were using the word "belief" which made me think you have some conviction in the truth of it.

Prestoff posted...

Gnosticism is where you are 100% sure your belief is the right one, which is where most Theists will tend to fall under.

unfortunately, gnostic is not the opposite of agnostic, and Gnosticism is actually a specific religion. it's not just a state of thinking about religions in general

Jagus posted...

Everything Ive read from discussions here and Reddit. Apparently theyre illusions or something and there was some experiment done that proved free will could be simulated with electrical rods or something on the brain. Idk

Wouldn't that experiment just prove that free will was a physical process and not supernatural?

There is also the cases of people who have had their frontal lobe damaged and it completely changed their personality which indicates that a person's consciousness is tied to their physical brain and does not need some sort of supernatural explanation.

The truth is I dont know what will happen. But I choose to believe Im going to Heaven

kirbymuncher posted...

unfortunately, gnostic is not the opposite of agnostic, and Gnosticism is actually a specific religion. it's not just a state of thinking about religions in general

words can have more than one meaning

bobbycorwin posted...

Wouldn't that experiment just prove that free will was a physical process and not supernatural?

There is also the cases of people who have had their frontal lobe damaged and it completely changed their personality which indicates that a person's consciousness is tied to their physical brain and does not need some sort of supernatural explanation.

according to the discussion I was reading it was being used to prove free will didnt exist. Like determinism or something maybe idk

and apparently the consciousness does not exist or something. Its an illusion

kirbymuncher posted...

unfortunately, gnostic is not the opposite of agnostic, and Gnosticism is actually a specific religion. it's not just a state of thinking about religions in general

Problem with those terms is they have multiple popular usages. I'd say that gnosticism is the belief that God's nature is knowable in some way, and agnosticism is the belief that God's nature is unknowable.

Jagus posted...

according to the discussion I was reading it was being used to prove free will didnt exist. Like determinism or something maybe idk

and apparently the consciousness does not exist or something. Its an illusion

That doesn't make sense. That sounds like the exact opposite of what the experiment as you explained it showed.

Yeah, youre right. Thats the problem with trying to remember things from years ago sometimes.

Anyway, I dont believe in anything supernatural currently was all I meant

Jagus posted...

words can have more than one meaning

kind9 posted...

Problem with those terms is they have multiple popular usages.

they can but this one really doesn't, no one will understand you if you just say you're gnostic to mean that you're certain of your beliefs and the only reason it even vaguely works here is because it is being used in direct contrast to agnosticism, which puts the idea of a false antonym into peoples heads since that's how english words tend to work. Using it this way is not a popular usage (just google it)

Jagus posted...

Yeah, youre right. Thats the problem with trying to remember things from years ago sometimes.

Anyway, I dont believe in anything supernatural currently was all I meant

Is this what you are talking about?

https://www.helix.northwestern.edu/2018/01/14/the-physics-of-free-will/

This has nothing to do with the supernatural. It's saying that free will is nothing more than the current state of our brain chemistry.

kirbymuncher posted...

they can but this one really doesn't, no one will understand you if you just say you're gnostic to mean that you're certain of your beliefs and the only reason it even vaguely works here is because it is being used in direct contrast to agnosticism, which puts the idea of a false antonym into peoples heads since that's how english words tend to work. Using it this way is not a popular usage (just google it)

I think generally thered be more prior context before using it like that

bobbycorwin posted...

Is this what you are talking about?

https://www.helix.northwestern.edu/2018/01/14/the-physics-of-free-will/

This has nothing to do with the supernatural. It's saying that free will is nothing more than the current state of our brain chemistry.

maybe. I appreciate you actually looking for it

In Post #75 you said you didn't think anything supernatural existed except free will and consciousness. Then in post #89 you said you don't believe anything supernatural exists.

Which of these is your actual belief?

I do not believe free will or consciousness are supernatural as of right now. I dont believe in anything supernatural.

Okay, so as of now the only reason you are an agnostic rather than an atheist is because you want to believe that a Heaven and Hell exist?

I am also open to supernatural things being real

And I worship positivity, willpower, and imagination as my gods

kirbymuncher posted...

they can but this one really doesn't, no one will understand you if you just say you're gnostic to mean that you're certain of your beliefs and the only reason it even vaguely works here is because it is being used in direct contrast to agnosticism, which puts the idea of a false antonym into peoples heads since that's how english words tend to work. Using it this way is not a popular usage (just google it)

In secular circles "gnostic" pretty much just means "without knowledge". I googled it, and it's the same definition I gave:

adjective: gnostic
relating to knowledge, especially esoteric mystical knowledge.
relating to Gnosticism.

I said it's the belief that God's nature (and existence) is knowable.

ScazarMeltex posted...

How is that any different than how anyone other religion started?

I grew up fundamentalist. I believed that the Bible was absolutely true and the divine word of God. I didn't think anything was made up, and I could just believe whatever the Bible said. As I learned more and found that the Bible was full of contradictions and was largely incorrect on how it explained history, I could no longer believe in it. It was one of the reasons I became an atheist, because if it was made up, then why should I believe it.

That's why I don't understand having a faith in something that you knowingly made up. I get fan theories and head canon, and I have some of my own about the stories written in the Bible, but I don't understand basing a belief system on your own imagination.

It's just being optimistic/hopeful. It's also fun, like LARPing or something. I don't know, I've never larped.

I kind of like the idea of an all-kind but not-all powerful and not all-knowing God learning over time.

Sometimes I wonder if the gods being at war is why our lives are so chaotic.

I should note I am a fantasy author and I like doing interfaith stuff.