Poll of the Day > TIL the British Museum pretty much stole other people's stuff

(+) Yeah! (+)

And refuses to give it back, apparently!

https://youtu.be/eJPLiT1kCSM?si=CqIvUcD7SyAMboAO

That isn't really limited to the British Museum.

MICHALECOLE posted...

https://youtu.be/eJPLiT1kCSM?si=CqIvUcD7SyAMboAO

This was my first thought too

Dont think what I think

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x73PkUvArJY

MICHALECOLE posted...

https://youtu.be/eJPLiT1kCSM?si=CqIvUcD7SyAMboAO

This was hilarious

Being honest, I don't think some of the stuff they preserve would be preserved if they remained in their place of origin.

Here in Brazil we just recovered the Tupinamb Mantle, a native artifact from one of the original Brazilian tribes. It was seized by Denmark since 1699, and it was returned last year... most of our native artifacts were destroyed because we didn't value them. They were destroyed by other tribes, and by explorers and river miners because they didn't value any of them. I legit believe that if it wasn't seized, it would've been destroyed or sold to a random landowner of that era, either way being taken from its legit owners.

Hemidactylus posted...

Being honest, I don't think some of the stuff they preserve would be preserved if they remained in their place of origin.

Here in Brazil we just recovered the Tupinamb Mantle, a native artifact from one of the original Brazilian tribes. It was seized by Denmark since 1699, and it was returned last year... most of our native artifacts were destroyed because we didn't value them. They were destroyed by other tribes, and by explorers and river miners because they didn't value any of them. I legit believe that if it wasn't seized, it would've been destroyed or sold to a random landowner of that era, either way being taken from its legit owners.

Having seen what ISIS and the Taliban did to cultural treasures in the territories they controlled, I can't help thinking there's a degree of truth to this.

And we'll fucking do it again.

willythemailboy posted...

Having seen what ISIS and the Taliban did to cultural treasures in the territories they controlled, I can't help thinking there's a degree of truth to this.

There almost certainly is but We stole your stuff because you couldnt be trusted with it, is a pretty dodgy line of argument.

TomClark posted...

And we'll fucking do it again.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/b/b61e1c54.jpg

Hemidactylus posted...

Being honest, I don't think some of the stuff they preserve would be preserved if they remained in their place of origin.

This, many third world countries just can't be trusted with thier monuments and artifacts.

Glob posted...

There almost certainly is but We stole your stuff because you couldnt be trusted with it, is a pretty dodgy line of argument.

at the very least, now is a pretty damn good time to give it back to cultures that value it

Hemidactylus posted...

Being honest, I don't think some of the stuff they preserve would be preserved if they remained in their place of origin.

This. One of the major concerns with Iraq was the potential from all the archeological digs and salvage from Babylon getting destroyed, either in combat, via vandalism, or just the established regime destroying stuff out of spite because if they can't have it, no one can.

When you're dealing with unstable governments that are prone to dictatorships or revolutions, you're always placing priceless artifacts and treasures at risk every time the shit hits the fan.

On top of which, you've got the added problem of radical ideological factions having a penchant for destroying anything that contradicts their worldview. Like how Muslims have a history of destroying Buddhist temples and statues. Or worse, you get things like when Saddam Hussein was "restoring" the Ishtar Gate using bricks that were all inscribed with his name, so he could try to splice himself into history.



Glob posted...

There almost certainly is but We stole your stuff because you couldnt be trusted with it, is a pretty dodgy line of argument.

It becomes a much less dodgy argument when it's repeatedly proved to be correct though.

It's also worth noting that it's less "we stole your stuff", and more "we stole your ancestors' stuff". Which creates the interesting question of whether or not someone "deserves" those things in the first place. Should Italy automatically get dibs on anything Roman because they happen to live now where ancient Rome used to be? Or does the fact that Rome had a geopolitical and sociopolitical impact on huge swaths of Europe mean that the true cultural inheritors of Rome's legacy have a stronger claim, even if they are in other European nations, or even places like the US? If the entire Western world looks back to Rome as a cultural ancestor, wouldn't that mean the entire Western world has the right to call dibs?

Worse, what if a group no longer lives where they once did? Should native tribal relics in the US automatically go to whatever US museum happens to be nearby because it was found on US land? Or should it automatically default to the current descendants of whatever tribal group the relics belonged to? Further, what if the original group no longer exists at all? Plenty of tribes no longer have modern inheritors and are considered to have "died off". Who gets to claim the rights to their stuff? Other tribes, who are arguably the closest in culture (but who may have been their deadly enemies when both tribes still existed)? The US government, which may have played a large role in killing the tribe off in the first place? Some form of arbitrary third-party formed specifically to oversee the rights and obligations of said tribe (or similar groups in general)? And if the latter, who decides who has the authority to do so?

What happens if a modern group exists, but is now culturally anathema to their ancestors? Should Muslims have the unrestricted right to destroy pre-Islamic Arabic or later Buddhist works simply because they disagree with them? Does "This belonged to my great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather, so fuck you" outweigh the desire to preserve culturally and historically important artifacts?

Then you've got even worse situations. People today can't even agree on who land like Israel belongs to in the first place. If archeologists there discover Ottoman relics, should those automatically belong to the Israeli government who control the land? A hypothetical Palestinian historical authority since they'd be the descendants of the people who lived there at the time? Turkey, since Turkey is generally considered to be the modern-day inheritor of Ottoman history and culture? Any other Arabic nation like Jordan or Syria, because those were part of the Ottoman Empire at the time? A separate, non-governmental historical preservation organization dedicated to overseeing Palestinian artifacts (and if so, who decides who gets the right to run such a group, and who do they answer to)?

People don't like to think about this (especially because people love to look backwards to their glorious past and claim credit for everything they can), but realistically, very few countries today consist of the direct descendants of their original inhabitants. Thousands of years of invasion and conquest mean that most original populations were either displaced or wiped out. Go back two thousand years and France isn't French, England isn't English, and the US definitely isn't American. Even places like Egypt (that we tend to think of as unchanging) have suffered major cultural and demographic shifts over time. If anything, one of the few places that can truly claim to be the direct ethnic and cultural inheritors of most of their own past is China.

you're talking a lot of hypotheticals when there are some very clear cut examples of shit they should return like the elgin marbles

the british empire nicked it 200 years ago (about 20 years before they declared independence) after they'd remained in place in greece for 1400 years, then split them in half between the british museum and the louvre

MICHALECOLE posted...

Dont think what I think

Okay

Glob posted...

There almost certainly is but We stole your stuff because you couldnt be trusted with it, is a pretty dodgy line of argument.

agesboy posted...

at the very least, now is a pretty damn good time to give it back to cultures that value it

The reason I used the two examples I did is that the people destroying cultural artifacts are still active and in one case still in power in the country involved. That doesn't mean it's true in every case.

then i guess we agree they should only give some of them back, the problem is that they are blanket refusing to ever give anything back

greece has been trying for 40 years

XenobladeX posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/b/b61e1c54.jpg

It belongs in the museum pororin

Pororin posted...

It belongs in the museum pororin

Ive been to that museum. All of the exhibits were Pororin themed. I even bought a Pororin plush on my way out.

Not a bad way to spend a day off.

rofl @ "we're keeping your stuff because you'd break it otherwise"

agesboy posted...

then i guess we agree they should only give some of them back, the problem is that they are blanket refusing to ever give anything back

greece has been trying for 40 years

but have you considered that Greeks are clumsy?

ReturnOfFa posted...

rofl @ "we're keeping your stuff because you'd break it otherwise"

It's not that their creators would break it, but that in third-world countries, creators tend to have their stuff taken from them due to a myriad of reasons.

For example, here in Brazil it's documented that at some point we had over 250 tribes scattered in our territory, and there was a lot of conflict between them. The Tupinamb I mentioned in my previous post was a vicious cannibalistic tribe at some point, and they'd ravage other tribes, destroying everything, eating the male warriors and doing unsavory things to the women and children from rival tribes. They undoubtedly destroyed artifacts from other tribes in their conflicts.

In Africa there's a lot of conflict going on to this day, many countries there are literally dictatorships where gangs and wannabe dictators fight to seize control of everything. There, the two predominant religions are Muslim or Christian (often mixed with Voodoo), and when someone manages to seize control of an area, they tend to order their ranks to destroy anything that belongs to the opposite religion, or even a different Voodoo strand.

https://apnews.com/article/british-museum-stolen-artifacts-ae178b225ecf2378766d22209194ecb7
https://greekreporter.com/2021/08/13/british-msueum-parthenon-sculptures-damage/

also, lol @ the british museum bein gud at preserving artifacts

ParanoidObsessive posted...

When you're dealing with unstable governments that are prone to dictatorships or revolutions, you're always placing priceless artifacts and treasures at risk every time the shit hits the fan.

IIRC, ISIS blee up a chunk of Babylonian or whatnot ruins and statues 10 years back or so, just because they can. Stuff that stood the test of time until some dumbshits wanted it gone.

Anyways, when it comes to the BM and plenty of others, it's far from black and white. Some of the stuff was purchased and acquired legally...some other much more devious deals (that the museums are fully aware of). Some simply can't be trusted to be returned to their home countries, due to strife and/or lack of funds and experts to care for them properly. Others probably could (like.mentioned in this topic, there's no good reason to not return stuff to Greece if it was acquired wrongfully). A huge amount of these items and relics also were only discovered BECAUSE of funding and workers from said Western countries, who did 99% of the work to bring them back into the light, preserve them, etc.