Current Events > Can we all admit that RD Ike is the worst?

(+) Yeah! (+)

The sheer glazing is just uncomfortable to behold.

Who?
Like thats not an Oh, Im so cool because Im above knowing him, I legitimately have no idea who youre talking about.

The only Ike I know is from smash bros and hes my favourite of the anime blue haired sword dorks in that game, at least

I mean, he kinda has the stats to back the glazing.

Miccy just needs to accept that the child she groomed into her boyfriend is an Ike fanboy.

McMarbles posted...

Who?
Like thats not an Oh, Im so cool because Im above knowing him, I legitimately have no idea who youre talking about.

Ike from Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn.

Radiant Dawn Ike? I only played PoR and I thought he was cool in that *shrug*

No, Roy is. Literally only even a thing because he has a really good sword.

Doesn't even get a horse.

Byleth is worse

I mean, Ike in Radiant Dawn kind of earned his reputation, and he has some of the best stats in the game.

ellis123 posted...

No, Roy is. Literally only even a thing because he has a really good sword.

One that you can only use like 20 times before it's gone for good.

Roy is extremely lucky he got into Smash Bros. due to circumstances, because otherwise he would have been completely forgotten about.

ellis123 posted...

No, Roy is. Literally only even a thing because he has a really good sword.

Doesn't even get a horse.

Roy honestly feels like the closest to a Smash Original Character. He is horrible in his own game with an incredibly late promotion and sword locked in a game that is lance heavy past about the mid-point. And yet he got a Smash slot way back in Melee and gets remembered when he otherwise would be barely remembered for how bad he was.

As for Ike, the odd thing is it took multiple years for people to realize he, not Micaiah, was the Mary Sue with all the glazing to go with it.

Solar_Crimson posted...

One that you can only use like 20 times before it's gone for good.

Yerp. Truly the worst.

Roy is still a better unit that Lyn.

Not that either even approaches being a good unit.

Charged151 posted...

Roy honestly feels like the closest to a Smash Original Character.

Melee was the first video game he appeared in, after all

Charged151 posted...

Roy honestly feels like the closest to a Smash Original Character.

He functionally is. Smash Roy was based on an early version of Roy and Sakurai just didn't have a lot to go on in general, so he kinda had to wing it when building the character.

By the time FE6 came out, Roy had undergone quite a few narrative changes and what we got was nothing like the Smash version.

Compsognathus posted...

Roy is still a better unit that Lyn.

Not that either even approaches being a good unit.

Lyn can dodge and double stuff, neither of which Roy is likely to do. She also helps with pulling off a 3 Turn Final Chapter "Light" - Part 1 in a Ranked Run. I'd also argue she is better than Eli at least before promotion, but let's not get into that.

And yeah, part of it may be Roy is in a harder game, but it is what it is.

Panthera posted...

Melee was the first video game he appeared in, after all

I forgot about that. So technically, it is true.

Compsognathus posted...

He functionally is. Smash Roy was based on an early version of Roy and Sakurai just didn't have a lot to go on in general, so he kinda had to wing it when building the character.

By the time FE6 came out, Roy had undergone quite a few narrative changes and what we got was nothing like the Smash version.

Yeah... Kinda funny to think about in retrospect.

Solar_Crimson posted...

I mean, Ike in Radiant Dawn kind of earned his reputation, and he has some of the best stats in the game.

This. Ike was a beast in Radiant Dawn. Which made switching groups during the story feel even worse

NoxObscuras posted...

This. Ike was a beast in Radiant Dawn. Which made switching groups during the story feel even worse

Without transfer bonuses and/or rigging his level ups to give him more speed, he can falter, particularly if you are trying to unlock Endgame content where he has to face the Black Knight in earlier chapters. He's also in a game with Super Canto, which he doesn't have.

Compsognathus posted...

Roy is still a better unit that Lyn.

Not that either even approaches being a good unit.

Nah. Lyn was in an easier game so her being worse than average wasn't as damning. Her also not being a force-deploy makes her far more useful if only because she can actually warm the bench.

ellis123 posted...

Nah. Lyn was in an easier game so her being worse than average wasn't as damning. Her also not being a force-deploy makes her far more useful if only because she can actually warm the bench.

I fundamentally don't agree with the fact that you largely don't have to use Lyn is an argument in favor of her unit quality. By that argument Wendy is better than either unit as you never have to use her after her join chapter.

Roy's contributions aren't a lot but the fact he never costs a deployment slot means as meager as they are, they are still functionally free. Being in a harder game also make Roy's contributions more valuable. Like yes, Lyn using Mani Katti to kill a Cavalier looks better than Roy using a Rapier to do heavy chip to a Cavalier but killing an FE7 Cavalier is so much easier than killing a FE6 one. Roy is helping a lot more than Lyn in that scenario. And since Roy is a free deploy, you might as well. Meanwhile, deploying Lyn means you are probably not deploying that can kill a Cavalier and also do more things.

In terms of unit quality, Eliwood sure is lucky his son and Lyn always manage to keep the attention off him. He's Roy, in a game where being sword locked is worse, with no equivalent to the chapter 4 god cavaliers Roy gets effective damage on and with no late game option to have at least limited access to real combat with minimal leveling.

Compsognathus posted...

I fundamentally don't agree with the fact that you largely don't have to use Lyn is an argument in favor of her unit quality. By that argument Wendy is better than either unit as you never have to use her after her join chapter.

Roy's contributions aren't a lot but the fact he never costs a deployment slot means as meager as they are, they are still functionally free. Being in a harder game also make Roy's contributions more valuable. Like yes, Lyn using Mani Katti to kill a Cavalier looks better than Roy using a Rapier to do heavy chip to a Cavalier but killing an FE7 Cavalier is so much easier than killing a FE6 one. Roy is helping a lot more than Lyn in that scenario. And since Roy is a free deploy, you might as well. Meanwhile, deploying Lyn means you are probably not deploying that can kill a Cavalier and also do more things.

I'm not arguing for her quality so much as I'm arguing her as less of a detriment. Roy is force-deploy, he always takes up a lot. Lyn at least doesn't take a slot away from you. And if she *is* taking a slot means that you either like the character or the RNG has blessed you.

And having "Lyn using Mani Katti to kill a Cavalier" and "deploying Lyn means you are probably not deploying that can kill a Cavalier" is certainly a take when literally the only thing that Roy can do that Lyn cannot is sit on a throne. Everything about FEVII up to and including having a higher axe user count favors Lyn specifically. She just sucks compared to a massive army of arguably some of the strongest pre-Awakening characters as a whole.

Compsognathus posted...

Roy is still a better unit that Lyn.

Not that either even approaches being a good unit.

Counter argument

https://youtu.be/0d0TDjGxu5U?si=vaQmI40qNNDSLSHe

Always enjoyed Lyn.

Panthera posted...

In terms of unit quality, Eliwood sure is lucky his son and Lyn always manage to keep the attention off him.

I generally consider him worse than Lyn (especially before promotion). Him being so average increases the changes he gets RNG screwed. Hector can tank. Lyn can double and dodge. Eli can't do a whole lot until he gets a horse.

Panthera posted...

He's Roy, in a game where being sword locked is worse, with no equivalent to the chapter 4 god cavaliers Roy gets effective damage on and with no late game option to have at least limited access to real combat with minimal leveling.

I don't know about being sword locked being worse in FE7. In FE6, characters like Rutger and Dieck (or whatever their localized names are) work more due to their excellent stats and great promotion boosts (insane critical boost for Rutger and axes for Dieck). All the powerful Wyverns in FE6 punish most sword users pretty hard even if someone like Rutger gets around this due to constant criticals. Roy certainly has no option however.

As for Eli, post-promotion (which can happen as soon as Unfulfilled Heart if you promote him over Lyn in HHM), he gets lances and can get in on all the Javelin throwing on the enemy phase your other units are probably already doing.

Being Sword Locked is so much worse in FE7 compared to FE6.

FE7 is a game with incredibly low-tier enemies with mixed attacking ranges and strong and cheap 1-2 range weapons. The most effective strategy is to have your units equip and javelin or hand-axe. And have them kill waves of enemies on enemy phase. Being sword locked means you just cannot do that well. Strong player phase combat just isn't particularly valuable and that's what sword locked units are best at. Axes and Lances are also just better than swords as weapons too as both received buffs to hit compared to FE6.

FE6 is the opposite in many ways. Enemies are considerably stronger in nearly every way. So player phase combat is generally the preferred form of engagement, especially in the early game. Javelins and hand-axes are also much worse. So having 1-2 range is just not as important as it is in FE7. Swords are also just better than Lances and Axes, to the degree that you frequently have more hit even fighting against the weapon triangle. Basically all the things that make FE7 sword locked units bad either don't exist or are considerably less important in FE6.

Like Rutger, even with his bonker stats would still only be a mid-tier unit in FE7.

Solar_Crimson posted...

I mean, Ike in Radiant Dawn kind of earned his reputation, and he has some of the best stats in the game.

this, hes known continent wide as a hero and respected by all/most races because of what he did in Path of Radiance. Its not comparable whatsoever to how characters treat the avatars in the last decade of FEs

Being able to double isn't a Lyn thing, FE7 enemies are just fucking slow.

Metal_Gear_Raxis posted...

Being able to double isn't a Lyn thing, FE7 enemies are just fucking slow.

Yeah, a unit needs all of like 14 attack speed to double 90% of the enemies in the game.

It's basically just the Axe Bros and Wallace who will actually have long-term doubling issues.

Metal_Gear_Raxis posted...

Being able to double isn't a Lyn thing, FE7 enemies are just fucking slow.

They are, but...it takes Eli to level 19 unpromoted on average to hit the 14 Speed that is needed to double most mooks...
https://serenesforest.net/blazing-sword/characters/average-stats/eliwood/

And that's assuming he doesn't get speed screwed or screwed in another way. With average growth rates, it happens more often than it should.

Charged151 posted...

They are, but...it takes Eli to level 19 unpromoted on average to hit the 14 Speed that is needed to double most mooks...
https://serenesforest.net/blazing-sword/characters/average-stats/eliwood/

And that's assuming he doesn't get speed screwed or screwed in another way. With average growth rates, it happens more often then it should.

That 14 is for late game enemies, and if you are using Eliwood, he'll have 19 levels under his belt by then. For most the game, enemies are even slower.

Don't get me wrong, Eliwood is also not a good unit, but his higher bulk, availability and significantly better promotion makes him better than Lyn. And yes, it is very sad that promoting into Cavalier, is still much better than horseless Nomad Trooper.

Compsognathus posted...

Being Sword Locked is so much worse in FE7 compared to FE6.

Thing is though a lot of the basic enemies in FE7 aren't that threatening, so the worst thing most swordies have going on is not hitting back on the enemy phase against those with 2 range. Lyn doubles and dodges well on either phase even if yeah, any of your cavalries/fliers do everything she does but better.

In FE6, as mentioned, the much more threatening enemies means non-OP swordies like the sucky Roy in particular doesn't even want to engage most enemies except the occasional axe user. In Ranked, usually he is trained up in an Arena or something. Otherwise, he is being ferried to the Throne to seize.

Charged151 posted...

They are, but...it takes Eli to level 19 unpromoted on average to hit the 14 Speed that is needed to double most mooks...
https://serenesforest.net/blazing-sword/characters/average-stats/eliwood/

And that's assuming he doesn't get speed screwed or screwed in another way. With average growth rates, it happens more often than it should.

Eliwood is also shit, you're damning Lyn with faint praise.

Also, please get "if he gets stat screwed" out of your vocabulary, this isn't the mid 2000s anymore.

Charged151 posted...

Thing is though a lot of the basic enemies in FE7 aren't that threatening, so the worst thing most swordies have going on is not hitting back on the enemy phase against those with 2 range. Lyn doubles and dodges well on either phase even if yeah, any of your cavalries/fliers do everything she does but better.

In FE6, as mentioned, the much more threatening enemies means non-OP swordies like the sucky Roy in particular doesn't even want to engage most enemies except the occasional axe user. In Ranked, usually he is trained up in an Arena or something. Otherwise, he is being ferried to the Throne to seize.

Swords are good in FE6, what on earth are you talking about?

Compsognathus posted...

That 14 is for late game enemies, and if you are using Eliwood, he'll have 19 levels under his belt by then. For most the game, enemies are even slower.

Don't get me wrong, Eliwood is also not a good unit, but his higher bulk, availability and significantly better promotion makes him better than Lyn. And yes, it is very sad that promoting into Cavalier, is still much better than horseless Nomad Trooper.

The 14 is a bit of a whiplash. It becomes useful somewhat early to mid game, becomes somewhat less useful in the more general midgame where enemies are a bit faster, and then somehow becomes more useful again in the mid-late game when enemies become...slower...somehow.

I agree the argument Lyn vs Eli is arguing bottom of the barrel. Generally I find Lyn better before promotion is in consideration. Eliwood probably takes it afterward, although as the game gets easier as you go on (as you get great characters like Pent and Harken), generally I find Lyn's contribution more meaningful. Again though, bottom of the barrel.

Charged151 posted...

Thing is though a lot of the basic enemies in FE7 aren't that threatening, so the worst thing most swordies have going on is not hitting back on the enemy phase against those with 2 range. Lyn doubles and dodges well on either phase even if yeah, any of your cavalries/fliers do everything she does but better.

Okay but why am I even going to deploy a unit who does the things all my other units do, but worse? Like even if I wanted to use a Swordlocked unit, I got Guy several chapters earlier than Lyn and I get Raven the chapter after. Guy has a better start and easier training arc, even if he basically falls off a cliff after awhile. Raven had a way better start than Lyn and gets 1-2 range on promotion. Lyn by comparison starts already at the bottom of the cliff and has to go through a training arc to climb back up and still ends up falling off the cliff like Guy.

Now I guess you could argue Lyn Mode gives her a better start but if I'm playing Lyn mode, why wouldn't I just dump all the resources into Sain and Florina instead? Doing that basically solves FE7 in its entirety. Lyn will never have that kinda of ROI to warrant training her instead.

Metal_Gear_Raxis posted...

Eliwood is also shit, you're damning Lyn with faint praise.

Also, please get "if he gets stat screwed" out of your vocabulary, this isn't the mid 2000s anymore.

They both suck. Agreed.

Also, are you resetting for good level ups? It matters otherwise (now if I was saying Marcus sucks, that would be a mid 2000s thing to say). Having average growths all over the place also means the chance of things going South increases. In Eli's case, either bad strength or speed kinda ruins him.

Compsognathus posted...

Okay but why am I even going to deploy a unit who does the things all my other units do, but worse? Like even if I wanted to use a Swordlocked unit, I got Guy several chapters earlier than Lyn and I get Raven the chapter after. Guy has a better start and easier training arc, even if he basically falls off a cliff after awhile. Raven had a way better start than Lyn and gets 1-2 range on promotion. Lyn by comparison starts already at the bottom of the cliff and has to go through a training arc to climb back up and still ends up falling off the cliff like Guy.

Ideally, you wouldn't. Lyn is force deployed on some maps though. So is Eli assuming HHM. As both are not good, you can not use her and Eli which honestly makes efficiency runs more enjoyable IMO. Playing ranked though, you will want to use both and they can help with more quickly clearing Light - Part 1.

Now I guess you could argue Lyn Mode gives her a better start but if I'm playing Lyn mode, why wouldn't I just dump all the resources into Sain and Florina instead? Doing that basically solves FE7 in its entirety. Lyn will never have that kinda of ROI to warrant training her instead.

Not getting any complaints here. Again, bottom of the barrel arguing.

Charged151 posted...

They both suck. Agreed.

Also, are you resetting for good level ups? It matters otherwise (now if I was saying Marcus sucks, that would be a mid 2000s thing to say). Having average growths all over the place also means the chance of things going South increases. In Eli's case, either bad strength or speed kinda ruins him.

Doesn't Lyn have an even lower strength growth than Eliwood does? Also, you're obsessing over "he gets stat screwed more often than he should" (which I'm pretty sure is bs, he's more likely to at least hit his averages, if not beat them, than he is to fall short) but isn't it equally true that he's just as likely to be blessed? You're falling fot negativity bias.

Metal_Gear_Raxis posted...

Doesn't Lyn have an even lower strength growth than Eliwood does? Also, you're obsessing over "he gets stat screwed more often than he should" (which I'm pretty sure is bs, he's more likely to at least hit his averages, if not beat them, than he is to fall short) but isn't it equally true that he's just as likely to be blessed? You're falling fot negativity bias.

5% difference in strength growths. Lyn doesn't have doubling issues though, so her damage output is higher in the early-mid game. By the point Eli surpasses her post-promotion, you have other units likely replacing both unless doing Ranked Runs, so at that point both are benched until the force deployed chapters.

Also, an Eli that hits his averages still takes a while to double enemies that most of your other units are chewing through. Still, the point is with Lyn you can reliably count on her to always be capable of doubling most things. Average growths leave more variability to chance. Bad or moderate luck still are bad scenarios in Eli's case.

And yeah... The efficient way to beat FE7 is with mounted units with 1-2 range. By the point even Eli can get in on that, you have much better options like the fliers, all the cavalry/paladins, and any prepromotes with busted stats.

Trying to change the subject a little bit to get back on track, FE9 Ike often gets compared to Roy or at least Eliwood. Swordlocked Ike in the midgame chapters in particular is prone to getting a bunch of enemies throwing javelins at him and running away with Super Canto. What sets him apart from the Elibe father/son are mainly just better stats and his OP Earth affinity (so much avoid). Usually people pursue the support with Oscar for ridiculous amounts of avoid in particular. And then of course, he gets Ragnell for a hilarious last two chapters he can beat by himself if played well. Sword of Seals or not, don't try that with Roy in Chapter 23.

And yeah, FE10 is amazing besides maybe his speed without transfer boosts.

Aren't Ike's PoR bases crap? Also he only has Ragnell for two maps and a boss fight.

Metal_Gear_Raxis posted...

Aren't Ike's PoR bases crap? Also he only has Ragnell for two maps and a boss fight.

Correct on all counts. Point is he has better growths, has the Earth affinity for ridiculous avoid, and access to bonus EXP when you aren't forcing most of it into Marcia/Jill for better stat growths/levels either by topping off levels or just straight injection. Plus he can mess around with magic swords decently if you want which there are enough uses of for 1-2 range.

And yeah, people seem to really remember Ike's last two chapters of carnage with Ragnell with either the skills Aether or Resolve/Wrath. What can I say. It is fun watching him melt those two maps by himself. I didn't mention the Black Knight fight since people seem to want to run from him these days (efficiency? IDK.). I personally enjoy that RNG showdown.

Solar_Crimson posted...

I mean, Ike in Radiant Dawn kind of earned his reputation, and he has some of the best stats in the game.

One that you can only use like 20 times before it's gone for good.

Roy is extremely lucky he got into Smash Bros. due to circumstances, because otherwise he would have been completely forgotten about.

I'm gonna be a little shameless here and say that Roy is a better character than he's given credit for. I did a video on him a few months ago because I honestly think he's really interesting.

https://youtu.be/q0xjtiE7QTw

He's got an interesting character buried in supports and I think he gets too much hate for what he is.

(Though he still sucks terribly as a unit)

PoR Ike is basically Roy in that he's a sword unit with middling at best stats who receives a glow-up via a busted sword for all of a couple of chapters.

Luckily for him, he's in the easiest game in the series and can just get bonus experienced so he doesn't feel as bad to use as Roy.

Compsognathus posted...

PoR Ike is basically Roy in that he's a sword unit with middling at best stats who receives a glow-up via a busted sword for all of a couple of chapters.

Luckily for him, he's in the easiest game in the series and can just get bonus experienced so he doesn't feel as bad to use as Roy.

Sacred Stones is easier. Seth can solo the whole game with little difficulty.

Ike promotes much earlier, and Ike doesn't really need much if any bonus experience. Assuming you utilize your predeployed team evenly, he usually is at a good level by the point you can even pick which units you deploy. Heck, from my experience, he is level 20 well before post-Chapter 17 where he promotes, with most bonus exp usually given to the likes of Marcia/Jill/Kieran/Astrid.

Compsognathus posted...

PoR Ike is basically Roy in that he's a sword unit with middling at best stats who receives a glow-up via a busted sword for all of a couple of chapters.

Nah, being able to promote almost three times the effective chapters earlier is a pretty big deal. Roy is closer to PoR Sothe.

The people in Tellius glaze Ike because he never lost a battle in the war and jobs he's been on.

Meta reason being: It's game over for the player if he loses....literally.

I wish someone has a screenshot of him saying to Ashera that he's never lost a battle but everyone else who can die is dead.

Aside from the painfully obvious Sigurd and Seliph, who do you folks think is the best Lord in the franchise in terms of gameplay?

Metal_Gear_Raxis posted...

Aside from the painfully obvious Sigurd and Seliph, who do you folks think is the best Lord in the franchise in terms of gameplay?

Robin if you count them as a Lord (I don't) Otherwise probably Edelgard then Dimitri.

Probably Corrin, too many ways for him/her to be incredible while also being a convenient source of skills for another unit of your choice. I'd say Revelation Corrin is definitely the best after Sigurd/Seliph, your early squad is pretty ass in that game so it's practically always a Corrin carry for a sizable chunk of the game if you don't go out of your way to stop it, Conquest/Birthright are more arguable vs Edelgard though I think I'd still give the Corrins the edge (Edelgard actually a bad unit that costs turn by making part 2 happen? It's likelier than you think!)

Panthera posted...

Probably Corrin, too many ways for him/her to be incredible while also being a convenient source of skills for another unit of your choice. I'd say Revelation Corrin is definitely the best after Sigurd/Seliph, your early squad is pretty ass in that game so it's practically always a Corrin carry for a sizable chunk of the game if you don't go out of your way to stop it, Conquest/Birthright are more arguable vs Edelgard though I think I'd still give the Corrins the edge (Edelgard actually a bad unit that costs turn by making part 2 happen? It's likelier than you think!)

Hmmm, yeah, I'm actually inclined to agree with you.

Honestly I'm not even sure Edelgard is next after Corrin, some of Marth's early iterations are pretty goddamn broken.

Roughly in order...

-Robin (if he/she counts): Can clear Lunatic+ with some careful planning + preparation mostly solo with broken Nosferatu.

-Ephraim: Has amazing stats and absolutely stomps the hordes of FE8's weak enemies.

-Edelgard: Assuming Crimson Flower: She is basically Byleth but better proficiencies + multiple Gale Forces in Raging Storm on command in Part 2. Easily gets Death/Darting Blow and gets on a Wyvern and wipes stuff out. She does massive damage before that with the Smash combat art to anything she can't double.

-Corrin: Several amazing builds, with the best having 1-2 options, so probably some mix of Ninja/Dread Fighter/Master Ninja would be best. Throw on Kageros Dart and expect to never get hit and criple everything on enemy phase. Can switch to something stronger on player phase to take advantage of Aggressor. Panthera is right in that Corrin is best in Revelation where most of your early squad is underpowered/leveled. Amazing in all routes though.

Those 4 stick out. If the self-inserts like Robin count as lords, then Kris from FE12 also definitely belongs somewhere on the list. Having a busted, overleveled Kris with high defense makes Lunatic (Reverse) so much easier.