Current Events > UK trans woman convicted of sexual assault for not telling dude she was trans.

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gmvgn8z7yo

The man and the trans woman met on Snapchat, consented to oral sex, and the man filed a complaint with the police that he didn't know she was transgender. Lawyers for the trans woman were basically like "how the heck could you not have clocked her".

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cq68j0884y7o

Also mentioned during the trial is that the man in question (HE'S being kept anonymous) only filed the complaint after being mocked by his friends.

This held up in court and found her guilty because of guidance (not law) added last year to UK prosecution that says that it's totally a crime now to not tell someone you're trans.

There is frankly no way he could have interacted with her multiple times without knowing. As a trans woman in the UK, anyone you have sex with will now be able to put you in jail, should they choose to, by simply pretending they didnt know.

It's really disturbing how openly hateful people are to trans people around here

This is getting into Russia levels of transphobia. Maybe even worse?

Calling transpeople rape by deception is as old and outdated as conversion therapy.

UnfairRepresent posted...

It's really disturbing how openly hateful people are to trans people around here

Around there? Try basically everywhere, sadly.

TERF Island strikes again.

SaikyoStyle posted...

TERF Island strikes again.

Rowlings Island?

SaikyoStyle posted...

TERF Island strikes again.

Toss the "lot" of them in the "bin." For real.

But seriously, hivebent4life is right about the implications of this decision. Really scary.

Reminds me of some years ago there was a case in Israel where a man was convicted of sexual assault or rape for not telling the woman he had sex with that he was Palestinian.

Completely disgusting.

Fuck TERF island so hard.

Fucking TERF Island at it again.

The 2025 dating kit should involve not just cologne/perfume and contraceptives, but a stack of contracts to be signed in triplicate indicating consent with a letter and stamp to mail ome off to your personal lawyer.

This is one reason I am absolutely happy I couldn't give a shit about romance or the pursuit of a partner at all. I don't trust anyone enough as it is. This world hates trans people far too much.

Pretty much everyone in this case sucks. She lied to him she was cis and the defense was "he should've been able to tell." He only went to the police as a result of being mocked for it when he later found out and this can't be divorced from the UK's worsening tras rights assault since one of their narrow rape by deception laws involves lying about gender.

It's bad.

LightSnake posted...

Pretty much everyone in this case sucks. She lied to him she was cis

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/d/dc8d7fa6.jpg

Not telling your partner is one thing. Plenty of people have sex without confirmation if someone is trans or cis. Straight up lying about things to secure consent is, I believe, bad. I don't think that's a controversial statement. Should it rise to the level of a criminal offense here with the UK's continuing assault on trans rights? Probably not, no

Ciara Watkin, 21, told the man she was on her period to stop him discovering her real sex, Teesside Crown Court heard.
Watkin, who was referred to in court by female pronouns, had admitted lying

I'm kind of conflicted...While there is certainly some severe transphobia going on, she literally lied about who she was to get him to have sex.

Are we going to go back to 'gay panic' defence?

I mean, if Im looking at the photos Im thinking its a definite case where they had been getting ridiculed and then filed a report. I think the defense is telling the truth on this.

However that part about the period is troubling, since she also admitted to it?

But I thought you could always tell? At least that what I always hear from the type that would file this type of lawsuit.

terf island

Ciara Watkin, 21, told the man she was on her period to stop him discovering she was biologically male, prosecutors told Teesside Crown Court.

Lawyers for Ms Watkin, from Thornaby near Middlesbrough, said she accepted lying to the man but it was "blindingly obvious" to him that she was biologically male and he had only complained as a response to being mocked by his friends.

I don't think these two things make sense when taken together. If it was "blindingly obvious" then what was the purpose of the lie? And why was the lie about something that specifically frames her as a bio female when that isn't the case? Everything about this indicates that she actively sought to deceive him, it isn't just a matter of not telling

DipDipDiver posted...

I don't think these two things make sense when taken together. If it was "blindingly obvious" then what was the purpose of the lie? And why was the lie about something that specifically frames her as a bio female when that isn't the case? Everything about this indicates that she actively sought to deceive him, it isn't just a matter of not telling

I agree that she should have never been deceptive, or whatever but it does seem as though the truth should have been pretty obvious. And I dont want to be much more explicit than that because it seems really harsh to say. I do think that he got embarrassed and then filed his complaint.

He probably knew what was going on when she didnt take her clothes off, but decided that he still wanted to get some kind of action and then when his friends were transphobic assholes to him he went and ruined this ladys life.

MotaroRIP619 posted...

I agree that she should have never been deceptive, or whatever but it does seem as though the truth should have been pretty obvious. And I dont want to be much more explicit than that because it seems really harsh to say. I do think that he got embarrassed and then filed his complaint.

He probably knew what was going on when she didnt take her clothes off, but decided that he still wanted to get some kind of action and then when his friends were transphobic assholes to him he went and ruined this ladys life.

"The truth should be obvious" is a VERY shitty defense from her lawyers, tbqh. Like it promotes the worst stereotypes about trans people

LightSnake posted...

"The truth should be obvious" is a VERY shitty defense from her lawyers, tbqh. Like it promotes the worst stereotypes about trans people

Agreed

And also it's 100% victim blaming

LightSnake posted...

"The truth should be obvious" is a VERY shitty defense from her lawyers, tbqh. Like it promotes the worst stereotypes about trans people

I completely agree. I feel like shes in trouble sadly.

Before getting into bed with a woman, we have to ask are you a dude?.

They can always tell. Except they can't.

es289408 posted...

Before getting into bed with a woman, we have to ask are you a dude?.

She would have lied anyway

TERF Island once again showing how it earned its name.

Is this not a step away from gay panic defense?

Being trans and not openly disclosing it isn't necessarily rape by deception, but outright lying about being cis absolutely is and her own lawyers trying to use "you can always tell" as a defense is incredibly transphobic. This whole situation is fucked on both ends.

The vast majority of the world does not have to explain what sex they are to partners. There's a standard here that applies only to transgender people that is extremely discriminatory and there's no defense for it even if she lied.

reincarnator07 posted...

Is this not a step away from gay panic defense?

If not for the fact that she lied, I'd agree.

Tyranthraxus posted...

The vast majority of the world does not have to explain what sex they are to partners. There's a standard here that applies only to transgender people that is extremely discriminatory and there's no defense for it even if she lied.

Sorry, but lying to gain consent to sex is, 100 percent, messed up and morally wrong. Someone being a minority doesn't negate someone's right to informed consent.

Not telling someone isn't bad. Actively lying is another thing. Does this rise to the level of rapeby fraud? Possibly not and it can't be divorced from the political climate. Making excuses for lying to obtain consent isn't it, though.

LightSnake posted...

Sorry, but lying to gain consent to sex is, 100 percent, messed up and morally wrong. Someone being a minority doesn't negate someone's right to informed consent.

Not telling someone isn't bad. Actively lying is another thing. Does this rise to the level of rapeby fraud? Possibly not and it can't be divorced from the political climate. Making excuses for lying to obtain consent isn't it, though.

I agree, but I also dont believe for a second that he didnt know she was a trans woman. This is just transphobia.

havean776 posted...

Are we going to go back to 'gay panic' defence?

It never went away

MotaroRIP619 posted...

I agree, but I also dont believe for a second that he didnt know she was a trans woman. This is just transphobia.

That is very possible. This is an "Everyone Sucks", but he is weaponizing the justice system because he was mocked which means he absolutely sucks more

I am really concerned for the big picture, because like post #2 references how many people are going to start lying about their trans partners and making trouble for them now?

It seems like it would be pretty easy. I would be scared to have sex with anyone as a trans person in the UK right now, and they damn sure better be keeping some kind of receipts or something. It is a scary precedent to set.

MotaroRIP619 posted...

I am really concerned for the big picture, because like post #2 references how many people are going to start lying about their trans partners and making trouble for them now?

It seems like it would be pretty easy. I would be scared to have sex with anyone as a trans person in the UK right now, and they damn sure better be keeping some kind of receipts or something. It is a scary precedent to set.

MotaroRIP619 posted...

I am really concerned for the big picture, because like post #2 references how many people are going to start lying about their trans partners and making trouble for them now?

It seems like it would be pretty easy. I would be scared to have sex with anyone as a trans person in the UK right now, and they damn sure better be keeping some kind of receipts or something. It is a scary precedent to set.

It is. It can't be removed from UK precedent that lying about your gender is rape by deception (that case involved a woman who convinced her partner she was a man and used a strap on for sex when her partner was unaware of it)

Tyranthraxus posted...

The vast majority of the world does not have to explain what sex they are to partners. There's a standard here that applies only to transgender people that is extremely discriminatory and there's no defense for it even if she lied.

Unfortunately, it is what needs to happen in order to protect trans people from using what amounts to deception to obtain consent and being on the receiving end of a sexual assault case.

If you have knowledge that might reasonably and/or actively impact someone's decision to engage in sexual activity with you, the onus is on you to disclose that information.

If a cishet woman presented as a man to get a gay man to sleep with her, we'd all be on the side of the gay man. It wouldn't matter if they only had non-penetrative or the gay man was only the recipient of oral and never saw the genitals of the cishet woman.

Deceiving people by withholding information or providing knowingly false information(like saying you're on your period), regardless of how 'obvious the truth' is or what the info is, in order to get them to consent to sexual activity is a crime. Regardless of the reasoning behind it.

Everyone in this UK story sucks, of course, but trying to handwave the actions of the trans woman because the legal victim here is transphobic will only serve to embolden transphobes and give them examples to point and go "see! They don't even want us to be able to refuse consent." (even if that's not the intent behind acknowledging the legal victims transphobia here).

I have so much mix feelings about this. There's no doubt that there is some level of transphobia involved and I totally see someone filing this lawsuit because they were embarrassed. However, lying your way to have access to sex with someone is also really bad. I think it's worst for the trans person is that this type of case can set a very very dangerous precedent on the trans community as a whole. Trans people won't be able to have sex with anyone unless they have to go out of their way to constantly get evidence of any sorts to prove their relationship is 100% consensual, which would be an absolute nightmare especially in a community that is vulnerable due to some of the highest violence/homicide rates against them from stuff like this. I don't like this at all.

EDIT: Also trying to use the defense that "it's obvious that this women is actually a man" is also transphobic as fuck as well. NO! You absolutely cannot tell just by looking at people. This is the type of shit that gets people who don't look like a traditional cis straight women bullied and discriminated against. I get why the lawyer used it, but it's really only going to hurt the case more than help it.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Read the article, they did ask

Amazed at the double standards in this topic. Feel like if you changed the topic title to Woman lied about X to get man to have sex with her, CE would be up in arms acknowledging the rape by deception but because its a transwoman that lied about being cis suddenly theres a lot of mixed feelings? Also people claiming that he should have been able to tell or the truth should have been obvious is transphobic. You cant tell if someone is trans just by looks.

I dont think you can always tell, I looked up pictures of the woman in question and the article also mentioned they had not had any gender affirming care. I did not intend to come off that way.

EpicMickeyDrew posted...

Amazed at the double standards in this topic. Feel like if you changed the topic title to Woman lied about X to get man to have sex with her, CE would be up in arms acknowledging the rape by deception but because its a transwoman that lied about being cis suddenly theres a lot of mixed feelings? Also people claiming that he should have been able to tell or the truth should have been obvious is transphobic. You cant tell if someone is trans just by looks.

Well the inverse, if man lied about x to have sex with woman then people would be up in arms lol. Lying for sex is still deception no matter who does it, thats why I don't really feel anything about this

I just am not sure lying about trans should be considered above whatever arbitrary threshold of things it are or are not okay to lie about to get laid.

also, sex isn't a necessity. You're just fine if you don't have it