Current Events > what does "soulslike" mean to you, specifically?

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ReturnOfDevsman posted...

The handful I've played are:

Death's Gambit - it's one of the most annoying games I've ever played, especially since the level cap is at least 50 levels too low. It's like they don't understand the purpose of leveling at all. And it openly mocks you for your deaths by stacking your corpses everywhere, and even having a cutscene where you are crushed under them. Major #3 offender, more on the random nonsense side than the openly cryptic side though.

Never played it so I can't comment, but I wouldn't say most of the genre is actively out to get the player. If anything, the fact that the player is expected to die means that the devs cannot mock failure and get away with it as you would in other genres.

Nioh - I'll be honest; I made this game harder than it needed to be. My experience with the above made me too scared to level up (what if I do it wrong? Can I restat later? Is there a limited number of times I can do it?) so it might not actually be that stupid for all I know. But in any case, black and almost-black definitely applies to this game, or at least to the first two levels, which were as far as I managed to get.

You defo made it harder than it needs to be and I'm sorry that one game tainted another for you. Ironically, it's been common for Souls veterans to try out Nioh, not treat it as its own game and get walloped until they treat it like its own game. It's quite generous with respecs too. You use a consumable to refund all your levels, but you get quite a few through the campaign and can buy them from the merchants. They technically get more expensive each time, but they cap at a level that's very affordable.

I'm unsure if you're including the tutorial level, but the first 2 levels includes a burning village. Nioh does have some ugly levels, but it also has some very nice and vibrant ones too.

Hollow Knight - I'm not convinced this one really counts, but it was tagged as such, so I'm counting it here. I actually really like this game, quite possibly because it's not infuriatingly difficult. Imagine that. But it's the main source I took #3 from.

I've not played enough to comment on the story, but I actually found HK about as difficult as other Souls games, at least from what I did play.

I don't mean this as an attack, but I believe you've fallen for the hype that these games are punishingly difficult, that you're meant to bash your head against the wall until you break through it. However, you're absolutely meant to win these. They're meant to be challenging, but not punishing. Doesn't mean they always succeed, Nioh has a pretty bad difficulty curve, but it's not inherent to the genre I promise.

reincarnator07 posted...

I'm unsure if you're including the tutorial level, but the first 2 levels includes a burning village. Nioh does have some ugly levels, but it also has some very nice and vibrant ones too.

There's a tutorial? Are you talking about the castle/prison level? Because even that kicked my ass, lol.

I guess to be fair I was treating it like games I'm used to in terms of drops and treasure and such, where you want to grab everything because there's a lot of unique stuff hidden in chests and whatnot, but I think I discovered it doesn't work that way and I should have just ignored most of the knights or whatever they were instead of trying to fight them and dying a million times. The actual boss wasn't that bad, I guess.

Anyway, in the burning village level I gave up on a part where there were two enemies and I couldn't find a way to cheese them by, for example, running in circles until the difference in their running speed separates them, lol.

ReturnOfDevsman posted...

There's a tutorial? Are you talking about the castle/prison level? Because even that kicked my ass, lol.

I guess to be fair I was treating it like games I'm used to in terms of drops and treasure and such, where you want to grab everything because there's a lot of unique stuff hidden in chests and whatnot, but I think I discovered it doesn't work that way and I should have just ignored most of the knights or whatever they were instead of trying to fight them and dying a million times. The actual boss wasn't that bad, I guess.

Anyway, in the burning village level I gave up on a part where there were two enemies and I couldn't find a way to cheese them by, for example, running in circles until the difference in their running speed separates them, lol.

Eh tutorial may be a stretch of a term, but the Tower of London is broadly meant as a tutorial level, it's why the boss dies the moment you activate your weapon. I don't think it gives the player enough direction though. Nioh 2 does this (like most things) much better.

It's not uncommon to face groups of enemies, you can't always separate them. However, you can usually get them to attack out of sync, which will give you an opening. On top of that, blocking is super strong compared to dodging, at least early on. Attacks will bounce off you from basic enemies and it's even useful against most bosses.

As someone with over 600 hours in Nioh 2 alone, I don't recall the first game guiding the player well enough though, nor do I think it gives you enough tools to deal with stuff. In contrast, Nioh 2 gives you 2 weapons of your choice right at the start, I'm pretty sure you get a ranged weapon in the tutorial mission, the enemy placement is better and the direction is better. In particular, the first 40% of the level doesn't have any dual encounters unless you rush ahead, which really is a lesson in simply not doing that. The first boss is 100% optional and the game flat out says you don't have to kill everything, although you do get some loot and to skip half the level if you can kill him. By the time you get to encounters with multiple enemies or yokai, you've been given tools to deal with them.

I think the problem you've run into is the games not properly conveying what you're supposed to do, which is absolutely an issue but a different one to the ones you've mentioned previously.

reincarnator07 posted...

On top of that, blocking is super strong compared to dodging, at least early on.

Figures. I picked the green thingy that makes you focus on dodging. This is what I hate about every game that requires you to build a character. They never balance it right and I pick wrong every time.

ReturnOfDevsman posted...

Figures. I picked the green thingy that makes you focus on dodging. This is what I hate about every game that requires you to build a character. They never balance it right and I pick wrong every time.

Dodging is stronger if you can do it, but the timing is pretty tight, especially compared to actual souls games which give you 3-5 business days of i-frames. With everything else that you need to learn at the start of the game (especially ki pulsing), I don't think it's worth the focus at the start.

By green thingy, do you mean guardian spirit? If so, they mostly have pretty minor stat buffs, you wouldn't be locked into focusing on dodging at all. Builds don't really matter that much in Nioh until you get to NG+, another thing I wish the game would convey better. So long as you upgrade your gear every couple of levels (from floor loot) you'll be golden. Stats aren't that important either to begin with, a healthy spread in everything opens a lot of options and lets you figure out what you want before committing to anything.

I think of the weightier attacks, the endurance runs, and the penalties upon death. High difficulty and stakes.

Much appreciated to everyone who gave me examples of non-committed actions in other games. I think I get it now, since I see how drastic it changes up action engagement in the games, faster vs slower paced basically.

Both types can be entertaining for sure.

DavidZ2844 posted...

Much appreciated to everyone who gave me examples of non-committed actions in other games. I think I get it now, since I see how drastic it changes up action engagement in the games, faster vs slower paced basically.

Both types can be entertaining for sure.

It's very much a case of using the system that best works for the intended experience. Not only would changing this fundamentally alter Souls combat, with how slow the weapons are I think a lot of players would animation cancel out of their attacks.

It doesn't necessarily mean slower combat though. Nioh's combat is pretty fast paced and is one of the things that trips up Souls players when they try it.

A game that heavily borrows from the game design of Demon's/Dark Souls.

It can (and probably should) be more unique than that ... but that's basically the definition.

Same with a RogueLike being a game that is kinda like Rogue.

reincarnator07 posted...

It's very much a case of using the system that best works for the intended experience. Not only would changing this fundamentally alter Souls combat, with how slow the weapons are I think a lot of players would animation cancel out of their attacks.

It doesn't necessarily mean slower combat though. Nioh's combat is pretty fast paced and is one of the things that trips up Souls players when they try it.

Hmm very interesting. Everything I keep hearing about the Nioh series sounds super gnarly, in a good way. Seems like a cool unique experience, especially for a huge Souls fan such as myself. I need to try those games out one of these days.

DavidZ2844 posted...

Hmm very interesting. Everything I keep hearing about the Nioh series sounds super gnarly, in a good way. Seems like a cool unique experience, especially for a huge Souls fan such as myself. I need to try those games out one of these days.

Is there a reason you keep bumping this days later at the edge of purging? I'm not going to close it - it's a legit question

Sorry if that bothers you. Im pretty bad at keeping up with stuff in general due to ADHD, so it takes a while for me to go back and read messages. Doesnt really click for me that Im bumping a topic thats about to purge I guess.

I know what I say on this board is insignificant anyway, so feel free to lock this topic if you want, I wont post any further

DavidZ2844 posted...

Hmm very interesting. Everything I keep hearing about the Nioh series sounds super gnarly, in a good way. Seems like a cool unique experience, especially for a huge Souls fan such as myself. I need to try those games out one of these days.

Nioh is fantastic (specifically Nioh 2, 1st one is rough around the edges) but it needs to be treated as its own thing. You can see the Souls DNA, but it doesn't scratch that itch.

DavidZ2844 posted...

Sorry if that bothers you. Im pretty bad at keeping up with stuff in general due to ADHD, so it takes a while for me to go back and read messages. Doesnt really click for me that Im bumping a topic thats about to purge I guess.

I know what I say on this board is insignificant anyway, so feel free to lock this topic if you want, I wont post any further

i said i wasnt gonna close it. my question was exactly and solely a question, no tone or implication

DavidZ2844 posted...

Hmm very interesting. Everything I keep hearing about the Nioh series sounds super gnarly, in a good way. Seems like a cool unique experience, especially for a huge Souls fan such as myself. I need to try those games out one of these days.

As a huge Souls fan, Nioh 2 is the only non-Fromsoft game that scratches the itch.