Friendly reminder that Edelgard did literally nothing wrong

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Current Events » Friendly reminder that Edelgard did literally nothing wrong
Tyranthraxus posted...
Go argue with the people who wrote the wiki
Oh lord, you've resorted to using the fandom wiki as a lifeline.
Time is a funny thing, you know? I guess in the big picture of my life, you were only a blip. But oftentimes, those "blips" make the biggest impacts.
Engage has a similar deal where theres an enemy you can recruit, but only if you go up to him with either the MC or one of the 2 lords from the region hes from. Anyone else goes up to him and you have to fight/kill him.
AceMos posted...
also apparently killing enemy combatants (that the player can choose to spare) from the corrupt church is wrong according to tyran
Not what you are getting at, but in White Clouds, the worst thing the Church did (or at least what it is portrayed as the worst thing) is Rhea executing the traitorous leaders of the Western Church. You know, the THSITD branch of the Church. It felt just considering what they have been doing and the fact you mow down plenty of enemies every map anyway.

Only point is if Part 1 wanted to make the Church look villainous of controversial, it didn't do a very good job of it. Of all the FE religious institutions, the Church of Seiros is probably one of the nicer/better ones. And then Three Hopes has you against the Church in 2/3 routes but never provides any reason to not like the organization in the game itself. It must have assumes you played Three Houses which IMO didn't really do that either...particularly when all the crest problems are mostly on nobility wanting their children to wield powerful weapons (Sylvain's situation).

Just a nitpick. Yeah, you have other stuff like suppressing technology, but that is after Part 1 and is DLC only.
I'm...the...master...of...ellipses...
the church forced the crest based class system on people

that alone is evil
3 things 1. i am female 2. i havea msucle probelm its hard for me to typ well 3.*does her janpuu dance*
AceMos posted...
its pretty standard in FE really
I mean recruiting Shinon in FE9 comes to mind with Rolf talking to him followed by defeating him with Ike, but situations like that aren't all that common. Usually it is "talk to x character with y character" to recruit them.

AceMos posted...
the church forced the crest based class system on people

that alone is evil
None of this really applies to Part 1, but...

"Forced"? The descendants of the 10 Elites were made Nobles, but other than that, crests being favored was propagated due to the crests having tangible benefits like strength/magic, long life (at least first gen), and of course special weapons tied to them.

Relevant to Part 1, the Church actively tries not to discriminate crest vs crestless and noble vs commoner as seen in areas like student lodging arrangements.
I'm...the...master...of...ellipses...
AceMos posted...
the church forced the crest based class system on people

that alone is evil

I wonder if people actually read supports, because there's a lot of supports that show the harmful effect of elevating those with crests. It's also not even just hurting those who lack crests as I remember Sylvain has issues in regards to the crest system.
http://i.imgur.com/BBcZDLJ.png
AceMos posted...
the church forced the crest based class system on people

that alone is evil
Its not good but like everything in this game that isn't from the edgy manipulators its rooted in good intentions.
Thank you for taking the time to read this sig.
This sig loves you.
McmadnessV3 posted...
Its not good but like everything in this game that isn't from the edgy manipulators its rooted in good intentions.

as ive said this game is built on grey morality

but the person i was responding to was acting like the church is just some benevolent organization in part 1
3 things 1. i am female 2. i havea msucle probelm its hard for me to typ well 3.*does her janpuu dance*
AceMos posted...
the church forced the crest based class system on people

that alone is evil
Edelgard trauma dumping a war on to the world because she thinks she's the only one who cares(despite damn near all her classmates save a few having grievances and ideas on how to deal with the system) and causing a multi year long bout of hardship while participating in questionable experiments indirectly to suit her needs, even being shown to be willing to sacrifice citizenry for a potential victory in other story paths, because she can't cope with her own incoming death is a touch more evil imo. And selfish, regardless of whatever she says.

Although I'll be honest, given the positioning and how they were just generally fortified, the Church threw that initial engagement as hard as they possibly could. No way that rebellion should've even gotten off the ground realistically.
McmadnessV3 posted...
Its not good but like everything in this game that isn't from the edgy manipulators its rooted in good intentions.
Yeah... Even the Church suppressing tech as mentioned in the DLC/Shadow Library was to prevent another group like the Agarthians showing up and using said tech to destroy most of the world with weapons like the Javelins of Light .
I'm...the...master...of...ellipses...
AceMos posted...
as ive said this game is built on grey morality

but the person i was responding to was acting like the church is just some benevolent organization in part 1
Which is why I wish THSITD weren't in the story as they stick out like a sore thumb and add very little to the story.
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This sig loves you.
R_Jackal posted...
Although I'll be honest, given the positioning and how they were just generally fortified, the Church threw that initial engagement as hard as they possibly could. No way that rebellion should've even gotten off the ground realistically.
You mean the invasion of the monastery at the End of Part 1? The Empire had been preparing for war for likely years, had gigantic monsters on their side (crest beasts), and the Empire is portrayed as the strongest of the four factions in Fodlan (three countries + Church).
I'm...the...master...of...ellipses...
Charged151 posted...
You mean the invasion of the monastery at the End of Part 1? The Empire had been preparing for war for likely years, had gigantic monsters on their side (crest beasts), and the Empire is portrayed as the strongest of the four factions in Fodlan (three countries + Church).
I was speaking from a realistic standpoint. They're up a mountain with layers of ridiculously high walls and a standing military. If they had even a crumb of awareness they wouldn't have lost.
R_Jackal posted...
I was speaking from a realistic standpoint. They're up a mountain with layers of ridiculously high walls and a standing military. If they had even a crumb of awareness they wouldn't have lost.
Rhea is laser focused on stupid meaningless bullshit from centuries ago because she couldn't handle her mother's death. She's ultimately in charge of it all and couldn't even fucking see two other crest of flames users were at her college before Byleth arrived.
It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha."
https://i.imgur.com/dQgC4kv.jpg
Tyranthraxus posted...
Rhea is laser focused on stupid meaningless bullshit from centuries ago because she couldn't handle her mother's death. She's ultimately in charge of it all and couldn't even fucking see two other crest of flames users were at her college before Byleth arrived.
The other part is the Church of Seiros's standing forces are presumed to be spread out and likely haven't had to deal with someone invading the Monastery with a huge army...since it was founded. The whole invasion took Rhea and other Church officials by surprise.
I'm...the...master...of...ellipses...
The church doesn't force Crests on people, but Rhea is responsible for granting them legitimacy through her knowingly false dogma. Now she did absolutely push a false religion on the people and has had a hand in technological restriction, which is pretty damn unforgivable imo.
Time is a funny thing, you know? I guess in the big picture of my life, you were only a blip. But oftentimes, those "blips" make the biggest impacts.
AceMos posted...
also apparently killing enemy combatants (that the player can choose to spare) from the corrupt church is wrong according to tyran
Theres nothing wrong with it, and likewise there is nothing wrong with Rhea attempting to kill Edelgard on the spot in chapter 11.
OmegaShinkai posted...
Theres nothing wrong with it, and likewise there is nothing wrong with Rhea attempting to kill Edelgard on the spot in chapter 11.

just like there is nothing wrong with edelgard wanting to overthrow the corrupt system
3 things 1. i am female 2. i havea msucle probelm its hard for me to typ well 3.*does her janpuu dance*
AceMos posted...
just like there is nothing wrong with edelgard wanting to overthrow the corrupt system

Still kills a lot of innocent people tho.

Everyone agrees the church sucked and the caste system sucked.

But Edelgard went on a way too bloodthirsty a path to do it.
http://i.imgur.com/vDci4hD.gif
Ivynn posted...
Still kills a lot of innocent people tho.


which innocent people die on her rout

3 things 1. i am female 2. i havea msucle probelm its hard for me to typ well 3.*does her janpuu dance*
AceMos posted...
which innocent people die on her rout
Its a war. By its very nature it would get a lot of people killed in the crossfire.

Not to mention all the good people in the armies that die.
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so then what is YOUR solution to stopping the crest system

3 things 1. i am female 2. i havea msucle probelm its hard for me to typ well 3.*does her janpuu dance*
AceMos posted...
so then what is YOUR solution to stopping the crest system
Work from within to expose the church's secrets.
Thank you for taking the time to read this sig.
This sig loves you.
It's always funny watching the mental gymnastics unfold when it comes to Edelgard and War. Suddenly war is bad and you're only killing innocents.

Meanwhile Sigurd exists.
http://i.imgur.com/BBcZDLJ.png
McmadnessV3 posted...
Work from within to expose the church's secrets.

yeah cus historically that works out great

just like how all those organized religions in RL where stopped when their corruptions was exposed
3 things 1. i am female 2. i havea msucle probelm its hard for me to typ well 3.*does her janpuu dance*
AceMos posted...
which innocent people die on her rout
The people that died in a war that ravaged Fodlan for five years? Also, speaking of corruption, should we talk about the students her direct subordinate, the Death Knight/Jeritza, helped abduct to be experimented on and killed, or do they not count because they were at the monastery and The ChuRCh iS CorRUPT?
Tmaster148 posted...
Suddenly war is bad and you're only killing innocents.

Meanwhile Sigurd exists.
I mean, unwittingly, he ended up helping build the evil empire his son had to take down...
I'm...the...master...of...ellipses...
Charged151 posted...
I mean, unwittingly, he ended up helping build the evil empire his son had to take down...

Edelgard starts a war to take down a corrupt system and afterwards turns her attention to destorying TWSITD. Unlike a certain other Lord who never deals with them, because you literally never learn they exist.
http://i.imgur.com/BBcZDLJ.png
Do you guys really think the Church would endure for nearly 1200 years and get toppled just from "its secrets getting out"?

OmegaShinkai posted...
Theres nothing wrong with it, and likewise there is nothing wrong with Rhea attempting to kill Edelgard on the spot in chapter 11.
Are you ready to share your evidence of Edelgard kidnapping people to turn them into Demonic Beasts?
Time is a funny thing, you know? I guess in the big picture of my life, you were only a blip. But oftentimes, those "blips" make the biggest impacts.
Tmaster148 posted...
It's always funny watching the mental gymnastics unfold when it comes to Edelgard and War. Suddenly war is bad and you're only killing innocents.

Meanwhile Sigurd exists.

I don't think anyone argues Sigurd isn't flawed
http://i.imgur.com/vDci4hD.gif
Metal_Gear_Raxis posted...
Are you ready to share your evidence of Edelgard kidnapping people to turn them into Demonic Beasts?
I haven't seen the event happen myself (just heard about it), but if 25 turns pass without rescuing Flayn/ not! Monica from the Death Knight, I heard the Flame Emperor shows up to take Flayn away.

Would love if someone would confirm or deny this happens.

But that is ignoring all the people "sacrificed" by not exposing TWSITD earlier.
I'm...the...master...of...ellipses...
Ivynn posted...
I don't think anyone argues Sigurd isn't flawed

but people dont call him a full on villain like they do edelgard

3 things 1. i am female 2. i havea msucle probelm its hard for me to typ well 3.*does her janpuu dance*
AceMos posted...
but people dont call him a full on villain like they do edelgard
A better comparison is between Edelgard and Arvis. Heck, with how much Three Houses pays homage to FE4 (holy blood=crests basically, TWSITD=Loptyr Cult), it is obvious he at least had some inspiration on Edelgard's character with both having a fire motif (Flame Emperor). I mean...
-Both scheme/plot to get what they want.
-Both become Emperor.
-Both ally with an evil cult.

Biggest difference is that (assuming Crimson Flower) Edelgard manages to turn on and defeat TWSITD post-game, while the Loptyr Cult/Church turns on Arvis, making him a puppet, and ultimately throw him away when he is of no use when his son who is the anti-christ essentially they brought into being takes over.

Bonus points, Edelgard becomes a true puppet to TWSITD in Azure Gleam, mirroring Arvis even harder.
I'm...the...master...of...ellipses...
AceMos posted...
so then what is YOUR solution to stopping the crest system

My "Golden Route" idea is this:

Byleth convinces Edelgard to confide in Claude about TWSITD

Claude & Edelgard bring Dimitri into the fold.

the Time skip event happens when the javelins of light are used on Garreg Mach.

During the Time skip the nations of Fodlan become allies instead of fighting. Dimitri forms a political marriage with Edelgard, uniting their countries and generally completely avoiding all the horrible shit that happens to him. Claude meanwhile finds and reunites with Byleth. The remainder of the route basically plays out the same as Golden Deer with the following exceptions:

Jeritza is playable on loan from Edelgard.

The three way battle #2 is replaced instead by a mission where you rescue the other characters you didn't recruit as well as non recruitable characters like Hubert & Dedue who were taken prisoner by TWSITD.

Rhea is deposed by Byleth, becoming the new Ecclesiastical head of the Church. Byleth renegs on the caste system & technological prohibitions. Also bans executions.

Claude returns to Almyra as usual to help break off the isolation of Fodlan.

Edelgard dies a few years later because reasons and all of Fodlan functionally becomes under the rule of Dimitri, but because he was never turned into a depraved murder hobo, the kingdom prospers with Byleth serving as the benevolent Archbishop.

Of course the reason none of this can happen is largely the fault of Edelgard's paranoia and fixation on solving the problem herself.
It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha."
https://i.imgur.com/dQgC4kv.jpg
I'll respond to Tyran's AU and another post or two when I get home shortly, but,

Tyranthraxus posted...
the Time skip event happens when the javelins of light are used on Garreg Mach.

Omega fucking facepalm.
Time is a funny thing, you know? I guess in the big picture of my life, you were only a blip. But oftentimes, those "blips" make the biggest impacts.
OmegaShinkai posted...
The people that died in a war that ravaged Fodlan for five years? Also, speaking of corruption, should we talk about the students her direct subordinate, the Death Knight/Jeritza, helped abduct to be experimented on and killed, or do they not count because they were at the monastery and The ChuRCh iS CorRUPT?
They don't count, because reasons :v
Hey, everyone, what's going on in this topic? Oh.
Tyranthraxus posted...
Of course the reason none of this can happen is largely the fault of Edelgard's paranoia and fixation on solving the problem herself.

claude is also paranoid you know

he does not trust ANYONE

and also wanting to have a political marrage is not something edelgard would ever support

and goes against the entire romance options for the player

3 things 1. i am female 2. i havea msucle probelm its hard for me to typ well 3.*does her janpuu dance*
Tyranthraxus posted...
the Time skip event happens when the javelins of light are used on Garreg Mach.

Metal_Gear_Raxis posted...
Omega fucking facepalm.

You are referring to the fact that the Javelins of Light can't work on the Monastery (hence why The Valley of Torment exists when missiles got redirected)?
I'm...the...master...of...ellipses...
AceMos posted...
claude is also paranoid you know

he does not trust ANYONE

That is horse shit.

AceMos posted...
and goes against the entire romance options for the player

Literally fuck the romance options
It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha."
https://i.imgur.com/dQgC4kv.jpg
Charged151 posted...
You are referring to the fact that the Javelins of Light can't work on the Monastery (hence why The Valley of Torment exists when missiles got redirected)?

You say the full power is blocked but just a little bit gets through to cause some havoc. You obviously can't have the monastery be completely destroyed.
It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha."
https://i.imgur.com/dQgC4kv.jpg
AceMos posted...
yeah cus historically that works out great

just like how all those organized religions in RL where stopped when their corruptions was exposed

Historically a lot of major organized religions don't get destroyed either when somone declares war on them. It often requires a lot murder and indoctrination.
Thank you for taking the time to read this sig.
This sig loves you.
Byleth doesnt know Edelgard is planning to turn against the church until she surprises everyone in the tomb and doesnt know Claude is distrustful of the church unless youre in the Golden Deer house. So it wouldnt make sense for Byleth to get them to ally with each other unless you change the story so that Byleth knows both dont like the church much earlier and without needing to be in a specific house.
Tyranthraxus posted...
You say the full power is blocked but just a little bit gets through to cause some havoc. You obviously can't have the monastery be completely destroyed.
"The full power?" What do you think they are, laser beams from space???

That's not how it works, Javelins of Light can't strike the monastery.
Time is a funny thing, you know? I guess in the big picture of my life, you were only a blip. But oftentimes, those "blips" make the biggest impacts.
Tyranthraxus posted...
You say the full power is blocked but just a little bit gets through to cause some havoc. You obviously can't have the monastery be completely destroyed.
Last time TWSITD tried to nuke the Monastery the Javelin(s) of Light got redirected into Ailell. Safe to say the monastery is nuke proof.

Anyway, we more or less already got a Golden Ending in Azure Gleam. Dimitri/Claude/Rhea are victorious and Edelgard is still alive and has the chance to get better. Closest we are going to get.
I'm...the...master...of...ellipses...
Srk700 posted...
Byleth doesnt know Edelgard is planning to turn against the church until she surprises everyone in the tomb and doesnt know Claude is distrustful of the church unless youre in the Golden Deer house. So it wouldnt make sense for Byleth to get them to ally with each other unless you change the story so that Byleth knows both dont like the church much earlier and without needing to be in a specific house.

Golden Route type endings always require specific choices. You also have a really easy way to connect them all since Jeralt's distrust of Rhea is well known. There's plenty of opportunities for communication to happen and alliances to form. The characters just don't trust each other.

This is all by design though. The devs didn't want there to be a singular best ending or they would have made one. Every route has pros & cons.
It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha."
https://i.imgur.com/dQgC4kv.jpg
Tyranthraxus posted...
Rhea is deposed by Byleth, becoming the new Ecclesiastical head of the Church.
You don't even need to depose her, as when confronted with the consequences and devastation her propagation of a false history caused, Rhea willingly steps down from her position as archbishop in both Azure Moon and Silver Snow.
Alternatively you could just have her be mortally wounded and die shortly after trying to stop the Javelins of Light as it happens in Verdant Wind.
Charged151 posted...
I haven't seen the event happen myself (just heard about it), but if 25 turns pass without rescuing Flayn/ not! Monica from the Death Knight, I heard the Flame Emperor shows up to take Flayn away.

Would love if someone would confirm or deny this happens.
Yes, and Monica too. Are you assuming she gives Flayn over to be harvested for parts?

But that is ignoring all the people "sacrificed" by not exposing TWSITD earlier.
Edelgard's options to expose or stop the Agarthans early are very very limited, she needed the church's cooperation and to have had a number of really lucky breaks fall into her lap to depose Thales early in Hopes, and Rhea pretty openly threatens her if she turns out to be wrong about Arundel, in spite of how seriously Rhea should take any signs of resurgence from the Agarthans.

OmegaShinkai posted...
Also, speaking of corruption, should we talk about the students her direct subordinate, the Death Knight/Jeritza, helped abduct to be experimented on and killed, or do they not count because they were at the monastery and The ChuRCh iS CorRUPT?
Funny thing about that , Rhea directly states there's no evidence that the Death Knight actually hurt anyone prior to Flayn's disappearance:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/5/5e96b881.jpg

The whole deal about the Death Knight kidnapping people sounds like people getting spooked to me, because I feel like if Jeritza was attacking and kidnapping people every day, there would be more evidence of it.

In any case, he wasn't under Edelgard's control at that point, he was under Thales's.

Tyranthraxus posted...
That is horse shit.
No, it's true. There's a whole scene in Verdant Wind of Claude and Edelgard being equally unwilling to trust the other with their secrets:

https://houses.fedatamine.com/en-us/scenarios/56
Time is a funny thing, you know? I guess in the big picture of my life, you were only a blip. But oftentimes, those "blips" make the biggest impacts.
Metal_Gear_Raxis posted...
No, it's true. There's a whole scene in Verdant Wind of Claude and Edelgard being equally unwilling to trust the other with their secrets:

https://houses.fedatamine.com/en-us/scenarios/56

No I agree that Claude and Edelgard don't and probably shouldn't trust each other, but Claude is not "as paranoid" as Edelgard and is far quicker to trust Byleth and his other allies than Edelgard is.

It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha."
https://i.imgur.com/dQgC4kv.jpg
Tyranthraxus posted...
is far quicker to trust Byleth and his other allies than Edelgard is.
Edelgard opens up about her darkest trauma to Byleth and Constance and shares her ideals with her classmates before the attack on Garreg Mach.

Claude keeps his ambitions to himself until near the end of his story and never tells anyone his name, even Byleth if her marries her!
Time is a funny thing, you know? I guess in the big picture of my life, you were only a blip. But oftentimes, those "blips" make the biggest impacts.
Metal_Gear_Raxis posted...
Edelgard opens up about her darkest trauma to Byleth and Constance and shares her ideals with her classmates before the attack on Garreg Mach.

Claude keeps his ambitions to himself until near the end of his story and never tells anyone his name, even Byleth if her marries her!

Yeah Claude is so untrusting he tells Byleth about his plan to poison the other houses a week after meeting him/her.
It says right here in Matthew 16:4 "Jesus doth not need a giant Mecha."
https://i.imgur.com/dQgC4kv.jpg
Current Events » Friendly reminder that Edelgard did literally nothing wrong
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