Lurker > Panthera

PunishedBen posted...

I already said when it happened. Really don't think people that bring it up are any more Iikely scum or third party. It's null as hell

You have knowledge that a third party exists. You see people bringing up third party. Given the set up you can reasonably infer town doesn't know about this but the third party obviously does and scum can deduce from their numbers that it is true. And you don't think that the people whose minds go to third party are less likely to be town when you know non-town has reason to have it specifically on their minds and town doesn't?

Corrik7 posted...

I think you are mistaken friend. Scum claiming astronomically early with an odd claim you can walk back if necessary isn't really a bad play. Claiming Miller as scum off the bat is still a + play. I claimed Miller off the bat as scum as godfather before lol.

I don't think unlynchable is one you can walk back easily. Miller is a lot better because you just do it then play normally and you look fine, it's not a role that actively encourages seeing it used like any lynch related role.

PunishedBen posted...

I did not think there was any chance i let myself get mislynched day 1 without spilling everything

When you were the lynch leader without an hour or so left you swore you wouldn't reveal anything because it was better to die than have to claim further

PunishedBen posted...

It happened. Its why I was so convinced scum might have gotten a night 0.

I do seem to recall someone brought up a night 0, I didn't think it was you. I'll have to check at some point. Do you remember when it might have been roughly to help narrow it down?

Isquen posted...

Because if that claim isn't tested and proven either direction it gives her a golden ticket to mire the game in a Miyazaki style poison swamp. Except the poison is a glut of useless words and whataboutisms.

Yeah but the thing is confirmable roles are called confirmable for a reason, and in practice b8 usually tests these kinds of roles. She was viewed as town by most of the game, one of the only other people to think she was scum was Ulti who was basing it on the idea of you being scum, and she was more or less dictating the game's pace at the time. Scum claim confirmable roles to buy time when their position is starting to look bad, it's pretty damn unusual for scum to claim a confirmable role in absolutely zero danger when they seem to be getting their way.

PunishedBen posted...

I was straight up given information. Its why my day 1 message was "We know more than we can say"

Is there precedent for town roles providing advance information prior to start of game?

Good evening. Sorry I missed the deadline yesterday, my brain saw 7 and just kind of accepted that as a normal time for a mafia day to end and blanked on time zones until I got home.

Chris I'm curious about your thought process yesterday. You were voting Ben and had been pretty sure on he and I both being scum. Then you unvoted him to vote Scare, while also asking if he trusted you. You responded to Crescent with something about why Ben looked bad to you and it seemed to stand (you were opposed to his town list and at the time it included Scare who you were switching to). You later said you were wondering if he was just being bad, but not until after you had already been kind of talking about him as scum while treating him as town you were trying to win over. What was your mindset when you were switching from Ben being your lynch to the guy you really wanted voting with you?

Speaking of Ben, I'm going to be nice and ##Rate: Good for him. Whatever he's doing can't be game changing if they're handed out first come first serve so I'm good with seeing more of whatever it is. I'll need to think about the town vs indy (vs possible scum, though I'm guessing that Chris regardless of alignment is probably honest about thinking Ben isn't scum, I'm not really buying scum/scum there), the logic says not to reveal yourself but Ben likes his gambits. With a lot of scrutiny on him late yesterday I could see him viewing this as a way to shift the debate on him to weird role meta and mind games where it's harder to pin down anything concrete.

Ulti you said you don't see IGCD kicking the hornet's nest by calling out you, Chris and Crescent. Is he kicking the hornet's next at all when he just mentions it and drops and he's prone to just kind of dropping his takes and not getting a ton of attention for it?

Isquen, you go right back to your Crescent vote. What is your explanation for why she would claim unlynchable as scum?

Also I see MZero is doing a thing. I'm not sold on him but this seems likelier to be a town gambit than a scum one (and if a scum one is almost certainly not one that will stick long enough to mislynch) and I'm realizing I have basically nothing on SBell this game, the most he registered in my notes was his bickering with Sultan for a while which I decided was more personality clash than game related. So sure let's play.

##Vote: SBell

Yes, babies shouldn't be mentally developed enough to have stances on racism yet. Any baby who does is clearly supernatural in some way and should be next on the list.

The consequences of eating spicy food are the price you pay for the pleasure of eating spicy food

I'm not saying anything about where they store things, I'm just saying that prize money she gives you for beating her? Might want to wash your hands after handling it.

I have to go but I should be back an hour or two before deadline

PunishedBen posted...

Early read on him - I didnt necessarily agree with anything he was saying but he was being very open on giving stances and thoughts about all players who were posting. I remember saying at that time that Sultan is "fine" and defending him because he is being so open that I was confident he will resolve himself. By this point in the game, "fine" has definitely evolved to "town". Mostly for the same reasons, but for some little things I didnt write down too

Does being open matter much when it's too vague? I read Sultan townish for that stretch too, but it's because I specifically remember him being prone to waffling back and forth and equivocating on everything as town. Without the knowledge that he does that it does not add up to think he would resolve himself. Players resolve themselves by locking into things.

PunishedBen posted...

Yo panth, you keep saying my vote for Bat was just a joke about summoning him. Thats not true - I gave my reason for voting him first, then voted him, then made the jokey comment. Its just a cool way to end a post. Anyway that reason for voting him is long and gone now. I'll take credit for town clearing Bat at least.

....What do you call a happy farmer? ....... A JOLLY RANCHER

I will admit I have a hard time judging when your jokes mean the whole subject is not serious vs when it's an aside. That was never hugely important though so to go to the meat of the matter, why did you defend Sultan for posting a lot when his posts at that point were super vague and non-committal without noting anything further on why that lack of substance wasn't an issue to you?

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Well have fun lynching him if you insist, but I think giving a new player an opening night to catch a breather is just fine, unless you think so little of your scum hunting ability that you think you can only find one in their second or third game.

I mean you know I do tend to have a pretty low opinion of my game but I'm not exactly seeing the problem with preferring to lynch the player I think is likeliest to be scum rather than factoring in how much cooler I'd look if I lynched a different scum. The whole interaction with Crescent and Ulti also makes Ulti look a lot worse if Isquen flips scum (Isquen got mad at everyone who attacked him except Ulti who he ignored and Ulti swapped to defending him very quickly when the pressure started turning into votes) so I like the upside on it anyway.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Hard not to care about self-pres when you get home from work and people are wifoming a opening post tbh.

Being upset about wifom over the opening post can go a ways but it doesn't cover indefinitely keeping the same mindset. It wasn't until last night that his lack of other content became too glaring.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

I feel as if that is a very bad question to ask me about Ben considering my posts about Ben.

(I said I wanted to lynch him)

As for Isquen my issue is that he kind of got jumped very early, and this day does indeed have a lot of posts. I am opposed to it strictly from a day one sense and I don't think the manner in which he has been questioned is liable to be able to find a new scum from a bogged down and loopy town. He could be scum, but the methods employed so far have a high backfire rate imo

It is not a bad question considering I want more than just yes/no stuff. I'm aware he's a lynch option for you, I want more on why because the most concrete thing I remember on this subject was based on a votals mistake (his vote wasn't actually on Isquen at the time he called him town). I like more to bite into on the reasoning front.

As for Isquen...I can see what you're saying but I'm not expecting him to have come out and presented the gold plated case to end all cases, only to show that he had more in mind than self-preservation. Like yes town cares about that too but it's easier for scum to get caught up in it to the point of assuming that an attempt to survive by painting their attackers as scum is enough.

Good afternoon.

First off for whoever said something about Ben being first onto Bat, that's not true - Plum's votals were fucked and listed "Shonen" and "Bat" as two separate players, the former with a vote on him from Red, the latter with a vote on him from Ben. I'm pretty sure the former came earlier (and was more than a summoning joke).

On to Crescent, I think confirming it is positive enough to require a better case on someone else than "day 1 adventure wheee" to go against it. Especially because the more actual argument there is to be made the more info you actually get, whereas it's a lot easier for scum to justify doing whatever when the cases are weak enough that barely more than a whim is logic enough.

Now for Chris since you seem to oppose the Isquen lynch, I'm going to ask if you think his lack of content on topics not-himself really adds up. The backlash against me and Crescent can be personality, yes, but while he's a fairly new player this isn't his first game so I think he has reason to know it's not productive to get so bogged down on one narrow aspect of the game. Losing focus because of pressure is possible sure but I feel like town would still take the opening to start trying to engage elsewhere and I don't buy that he thought I was an actual day vig putting him severely on the spot and not just using that as a rhetorical device.

One other thing that stood out to me was MZero's response to Crescent not liking his vote on her, to the point of looking up a past game to confirm he...uses exclamation points. I liked MZero up to that point but that was overly defensive and felt like a bit of caught for the wrong reasons. The grammar point is super dumb but the response to it was off.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Also maybe Panth. For 'best town player ever' award from Corrik he sure hasn't done anything of note.

Okay, then what do you think of Ben beyond "he voted for Bat"? With the latter not looking clearing since Bat's frustration doesn't sound like scum faking it. I tried to get the game to actually acknowledge this dude's existence when things were stagnating on a few people but aside from Chang and a couple mild comments from Crescent got zero engagement on the subject. Ben has had the worst activity to content ratio of anyone in the game and he had a very forced defense of Sultan while the latter was under pressure that didn't showed a lack of real analysis.

Crescent-Moon posted...

By the way.

Isquen is continuing to attack everyone who says he might be scum.

...Except for Ulti.

This was holding true for the most part but over the course of the last hour or so Ulti has switched to defending him. Which does coincide with the extra votes on Isquen of course.

Isquen posted...

I'm home and can now quote! Hooray!

You also can't read! I've offered a claim of "Selfish to start town role that gets stronger if scum is lynched." Might as well say that the first ability is essentially one-shot bulletproof, which will be amazingly hilarious for overall stats with the game's propensity to mislynch it early on.

So Crescent called out the dogs, and it's Bat (trying to live past day 1 for once) and Panthera (who are you, anyway.) One or two other scum out there.

Never give up, skeleton.
Time for crab.

I'm Panthera. I haven't played in a while, used to do some fun stuff like claim to have spaghetti powers and be an atomic bomb. You're most likely to know me for my most recent hit single "Waiting for thoughts on the game that don't revolve entirely around yourself" that's been topping charts across the world.

Isquen posted...

I have time now, just no quoting capability and bad Internet.

Also, threatening to shoot me during the day is just going to make you look like a jackass when I flip town, so mind that.

##Unvote
##Vote: Isquen

You've had time, you've offered nothing. The game is more complicated than being upset at others for voting you.

UltimaterializerX posted...

I don't think Isquen should die today. He claimed a role that can pretty easily be proven, and there is a world where he's town and genuinely annoyed at being the vote leader.

That world exists but there's also a world where he's scum who has nothing and is harping on the one thing he has. More importantly there is a complete and utter refusal to engage with the game. It's got some policy lynch elements to it, yes. There's little upside in a slot that isn't doing anything but insulting people.

Crescent-Moon posted...

Ulti showed me respect as both a person and a player in FFXIV. He's character assassinating me in both departments this game. It's a drastic shift.

Ulti not provoking people is the aberration, not the norm. I don't agree that you would fake this blow up with Isquen but pissing people off is in Ulti's wheelhouse as town. The last game I played he was town, did a fake claim gambit that got him in shit and went nuclear on everything for a while. Different circumstances yes but Ulti will seek to antagonize people both for reactions and out of anger when things go against him. I don't want to get into personal drama and talk about doing modkill stuff any further, sorry. So instead I'll ask what this says about Corrik - I see your argument for Ulti not being town because you think he's too different from a previous town game, but was there anything to this affecting your view on Corrik beyond a scum read on Ulti PoEing Corrik into lower scum odds?

Isquen posted...

It's a rather one sided conversation anyway. I've claimed a conditional power role that would like to kill scum, and I'm still not freaking home yet, so I can't quote things on this useless phone without it eating half of my message, ugh.

Nowhere in this giant wall of word vomit has Crescent entertained the notion how bad she would look if I get mislynched and a town power role gets flipped, so confident in the scum call followed closely by "but wait what about" and THAT right there is my tell, in my own mind.

Have I entertained the notion that Crescent is town? Of course, but one game of prior experience does not a full psychoanalysis make. Worst case scenario is I live another day because I doubt scum would want to kill me for doing their job for them. Am I worried about a mislynch? Not at this juncture - if there were enough remaining scum pointed at me I'd be gone already, so two of my current votes are scummy, and I'm 95% convinced Crescent is one through mannerisms alone, even discounting her Corrik kerfuffle~

Cards on table for thoughts right now. Maybe I'll respond more when my laundry is done and I'm not on 0.5G LoWiFi.

Hello Isquen. We know you are angry at Crescent voting you, you did not need to spend your limited time to say it again, we were not going to forget. When you have time and internet please discuss literally anything that doesn't involve Crescent or yourself. Failure to comply will result in your death. Thanks.

changmas posted...

This is such a stretch to me. I really don't think these types of joking posts tell us anything real about someone's alignment

I don't think the joke itself really matters, it's more that it wasn't a quick response in the moment, it was delayed and with Ben posting in the interim. It's natural when it's spontaneous but it's forced when it comes up later in a context where he's looking for something to post but that's all. I do agree it's the weaker of the two points though.

Crescent-Moon posted...

By the way, what do you think about Corrik?

The more Ulti talks the more I'm convincing myself that Corrik is town.

Discussing Corrik is a bit tricky for me because I hate the whole situation with you and him, but ignoring that as best as I can I'd lean town, but it's not super strong. His attack on you once it pivoted away from rule meta started to make a lot more sense, my biggest memory of scum Corrik is that he got into the weird meta stuff even harder than he does as town so abandoning that on you is a good sign. Him pushing the theory that Red was faking his Miller claim feels on brand. The problem with Corrik is that a lot of his behaviour like the "Look how smart I am for figuring this out and explaining it", loving claims and weird meta stuff is shit he just does because he seems to enjoy mafia most when he's trying to "solve" random things and it makes his alignment behaviours blend together. He hasn't done a whole lot beyond you. But Isquen basically insisting he be lynched if you flip town is a big point in his favour if Isquen is scum which is relatively likely. I'm not entirely clear on what about Ulti's posts is influencing you here though.

UltimaterializerX posted...

"Let's bus each other hard on day one so the game cannot possibly think we're scum together when one of us flips. If we can Board 8 Special away from our lynch and repeat this on day two, even better."

Like, yes this can happen, but planning to look good on flips is the back up plan as scum compared to just not aiming to get lynched and winning before we get info from scum flips. Isquen may be pretty new but Crescent is smart enough to not see the value in trying to make a scum lynch day 1 much likelier when not much else is even going on that she might want to distract from (I don't remember the exact sequence of posts but I'm pretty sure the game was still pretty slow and tentative when their conflict first started).

Crescent-Moon posted...

I don't feel like scum Red who hasn't been scum in years does the Miller thing. I've been consistently nudging at him for more content because I want to believe he is town based off of it.

Is the Miller thing consequential at this point? When I played originally it was beaten into the dirt, last time I was playing it had mostly died out. It's hard for me to judge the implication when I'm not sure how anyone is expecting a Miller claim to be received here these days, and all I have to go off is Red himself saying he's not sure if it's much of a thing anymore.

That last bit of curiosity was to Crescent in case that's not clear.

Ulti, if Crescent/Isquen are scum together what exactly is the endgame today for them? If you're right they've made it very awkward for either to pivot away without looking bad for it. It does not seem like a high value play but it would have to have been coordinated enough that you'd expect a plan for how it should play out. Plus, I don't think "fake blow up at me" is a plan Crescent endorses, she's too open about getting stressed out at times over mafia for a plan that involves inviting high emotions towards her to seem up her alley.

I'm curious about the reasoning for Red, I feel like he's given almost nothing tangible.

Crescent-Moon posted...

Ben vote is.. Interesting. How many people has Ben voted for this game again?

He voted Sultan in agreement with Marth (also joked about it being because of Sultan rating BAD). Followed you onto Isquen. Voted SBell when MZero suggested but he didn't unvote so unless I missed that somewhere it didn't count. He voted for Bat in this topic while joking he was trying to summon him. I think that's all of them.

Good evening, my internet has decided to cut in and out now that I have time to post so that's nice but I'll pull through because I like you guys and gals.

First off

##Unvote

I'm not entirely sold on Chang (and it's a bit weird he got so much less scrutiny for his set up meta post that brought up possibly indy than Sultan did) but he's done some stuff I like. His call out on IGCD for really awkward buddying up to Crescent without actually doing anything was good. He hasn't felt super consequential but nothing else he's said has really stuck out poorly. My eternal friend Corrik says Chang hedges his bets on stuff a lot by nature so I can buy my original read might have been more a writing style thing than anything else.

Now let's switch to someone who hasn't gotten much attention at all, that being Ben. After the attention grabbing super early claim Ben kind of faded out, around a lot but mostly in fairly meaningless ways (the message rating discussion accounts for a higher chunk of his content than anyone else I would say) and two particular moments stick out. First, in the first topic Marth made a "hi guys" post that went ignored until Ben jumped at it an hour later (to demand he rate GOOD or be shot, for context). Marth hadn't posted in the mean time and Ben was posting, so this was really weird, like he was just looking to force something for little reason and jumped on something easy.

Secondly Ben had a defense of Sultan when people were attacking him, saying that Sultan seemed to be saying quite a lot (Sultan had indeed posted brief thoughts on a variety of topics). Now, I kind of agree in theory - my recollection of Sultan is that his writing style tends to be "Here is a few words of summary, this player could be town or scum, I lean X but it could be Y" and it always looks awkward but isn't hugely meaningful. He also tends to misinterpret stuff and latches onto individual ideas he sees and really focuses on them. So I can get behind the idea that Sultan's posting (I'll come back to the indy thing in a bit) doesn't look damning...but Ben's defense didn't actually mention the reason for it, and without that reason it looks quite bad. This looks to me like Ben didn't really analyze Sultan to find him town, just wanted to defend him anyway.

##Vote: Ben

So with Sultan and the indy thing, I agree that indy hunting tends to be scum, but I think people took Crescent on her word a bit too much when she summed it up as him assuming indy or town. Sultan's original post about Isquen cited several possibilities and the one with the most thought about the game state behind suggested scum (in the context of his N0 role scan scum thing, which is bonkers but seems on brand). He posted after that that he assumed indy or something odd. Note that he didn't say "indy or odd town" as people seemed to think. He said most likely indy or scum, then focused a bit more on the indy thing. I think Crescent misintepreted the sequence of posts a bit, more likely than it being deliberate scum misrepresentation when her thought process has felt pretty town overall.

As for Isquen, I think the important part with him is specifically the lack of content other than his feud with Crescent. His blow up over her feels too severe to just be panicking scum, there has to be an element of his personality that just goes overboard when voted to get to this state. I get the argument about it being different from past games but as MZero I believe noted people, especially newer players, don't behave identically at all times and early attention over a check in post isn't a perfect comparison to later game stuff. That said the lack of other content is glaring. So, Isquen. Assume I'm a day vig and I'll shoot you if you don't provide some thoughts on this game that do not involve people's interactions with you. What do you say?

Also noting very little from Red, like I think writing off Corrik/Crescent as non-alignment personal drama is his strongest statement thus far. For those who theorized he was faking Miller to bait a response, Corrik and someone else I think this was, does this seem like the logical follow up? A couple of us at least questioned it in some way. Or for Chang who said his claim would draw scrutiny and solve itself does the lack of scrutiny strike you as odd?

changmas posted...

for now i lean town on both Reds Miller claim and Bens vanilla claim but Im open to revisiting both closer to the deadline.

This is trying too hard to avoid committing. It goes without saying that you're open to revisiting your reads as the day progresses in the early hours of day 1, no one knows anything with 100% certainty yet. Pointing it out doesn't do much besides give you an out if questioned about voting one of them later.

##Vote: Chang

red13n posted...

I saw your question and I don't think I had much of a mindset. I just did it.

Why not answer prior to the vote? I did ask multiple times and it seems a pretty simple thing to just resolve.

##Vote: Red

Answer me Red

Hey Red can you answer my question about your mindset when claiming?

PunishedBen posted...

Hey what's up. Rate the message GOOD or I'll vig shoot you right now

This is weird after not acknowledging that post for the whole page you've been active on since it was made. Feels a bit too forced.

Crescent-Moon posted...

The "I swear I will post" post

Dundundun

So I'm not the only one who finds those weird when it's not close to deadline or something like that

red13n posted...

How does this sneak up on you, we started at a pretty normal time a day later than possibly expected.

Meow

PunishedBen posted...

Well if tomorrow's message says "jumping required ahead" or "hidden path ahead", then I'll definitely rethink my strategy!

For the benefit of those of us who don't play this game, why?

Red why the super casual "Miller claim" if it's been years and thus isn't as played out as it used to be?

Good evening. I don't need a new action to rate people as good because I am a nice person.

##Rate: Bad

But I rate whatever this is bad because no one else has and I want to see if it matters.

Confirm

htaeD posted...

Unlynchable wasnt that bad in a game of 35 players, but it was fun

Oh you were immortal a different time? Huh. Or maybe I'm thinking of someone else. Somebody was an immortal independent in a game Lea ran that was on a time limit and the independent won if time ran out without town or scum winning. I stayed up for a while while super sick and miserable only to lose to the mafia equivalent of a timer scam.

htaeD posted...

Cool, I claim town unlynchable

The last time you were immortal was real painful for me so I'm going to have my team shoot you tonight and if you don't die I do

I think "Holy shit that woman is walking a dog and if they come one step closer we're going to get into a fight over who can eat the last cookie and I'm pretty damn sure the dog is going to win"

Ouch

Especially funny in the first generation (and second maybe?) where enemy status moves have an added 25% chance to fail even after the accuracy check, but players still inevitably feel like they're getting screwed somehow

Megaman50100 posted...

I always like the grade system in Tales of that let you 'purchase' upgrades for subsequent playthroughs. Shame that Tales is a series of games I've never wanted to play a more than once.

Devil Survivor 2 (and I believe the remake of 1 as well) does this kind of thing where you get points for doing various things in your playthrough that can be spent to unlock more NG+ features. Except it has multiple endings and several new special battles that unlock only on NG+ so it's actually worthwhile to do repeat playthroughs.

Sign me up

Not getting a job with that attitude ma'am

This is a really good group. I like Toxicroak, Drapion and Dragalge a lot. Alolan Muk is even better. But I have to give it to Galarian Weezing.

CaptainStrong posted...

What's so bad about Chikorita? You're the 4th person in this thread to say it sucks. I've been playing SacredGold recently and I picked Chikoria and I don't get what's so bad about it.

Mediocre offensive stats, its offensive movepool beyond early Razor Leaf is barren, and it matches up super poorly with the game. The gyms are full of types that beat grass, Team Rocket uses primarily stuff that beats grass types, the elite 4 has a lot of stuff that beats grass types and I believe only a single Pokemon weak to it, almost the entire rival's team, etc.

I'll take the Rod. Now come here, it's time for a hug.

CelestialVoices posted...

who has the most consistent discographies

Bolt Thrower and Vomitory