Lurker > HanOfTheNekos

Chaeix posted...

you got me

i shot Ulti and ctes should have roleblocked me

Nice

Chaeix posted...

though I will say that given the setup I think there is only one person that makes sense to RB over every other claim and I will be suspicious if ctes didnt RB them. that person is not bct.

obviously will wait for ctes before specifying

It's JC

Half game being vanillas is standard balance

Chaeix posted...

hm

did ctes ever answer whether he RBd and if so, who

i dont recall seeing it before going to bed, and its not in any of the posts hes made since I went to bed, from what I saw (but given how many basic mistakes Ive made today Im double-checking)

Tbf you should have waited to claim since Ctes said he'd say first

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

Tipsy this early in the day? Well happy St. Patrick's day to you sir.

Last night, Sultan.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Sorry Lea but I'm going to THINK THINGS THROUGH

... At some point. Maybe. I'm pretty fatigued

Chaeix posted...

But thats my point?

The logic was *so obvious* that tipsy Han thought about it for an extra minute and realized.

I just I am having a hard time believing that you hadnt fully thought it through before making such a definitive initial statement like beyond a doubt.

You didnt even leave room to consider a no-kill!

Town Han fully thinks things through. Im actually trying to give you credit here >_>

What about tipsy Town Han who is quickly reading and posting as fast as he can do that he can watch new episode of Mando with his friends?

I didn't really want to do any Mafia last night - I did it out of obligation and because when people are wrong about me I get a fire that spurs me to argue that I must feed.

Like, when people are right about me when I'm Scum, I don't usually have a retort. It's when they're flat wrong about something that I can motivate myself to fight.

Anyway, all this to say that, again, you're saying "Well it just seems weird to me that you didn't take the next step which gives you a different thought, in spite of you not having the next thought is proof that you didn't take the next step"

Theorycrafting here:

If JC is Scum and Ctes is Truthful, JC intended to scan BCT N2 but got swapped to Ulti... Which would be a way Scum realizes what Ulti actually is.

For this to be true, however, it would mean that Scum didn't shoot Ulti N1 and shot Crescent. Otherwise, Ulti dies night 3. Which means Scum didn't scan Crescent N1.

So this should be eliminated from contention as a possibility.

~~~
If Ctes is Scum and JC is truthful, that means Scum Bus Drove BCT and Ulti N2. This would be a protective scan I guess - swap fellow Scum with Ulti, that way if JC were to scan BCT, would not see him move and instead get the claimed Doctor, which is not important.

Otherwise, Scum would only Bus Drive BCT to not let JC scan him if they believed he was scanning him. (That sentence sucked)

~~~

Regardless of what y'all know your actual roles to be (or are saying they are), this logic checks out, right?

Chaeix posted...

Ive admittedly done a terrible job of explaining this. I will try one last time. Because the point is there, my explanation has not been.

Han. In post 165 you agreed with me that the only way scum shoots me if they think Ulti is a manual-use doctor, is if they think Ulti will not save me. The automatic doctor thing is not relevant to this point.

So your initial statement that I was shot N3 beyond a doubt relies on the assumption that Ulti did not save me.

I am struggling to understand why you made your initial beyond a doubt conclusion that I was shot, given that occulams razor says scum never shoots me.

Because it's mostly immaterial to the question, and again, not thought out at all at the time.

My original read was basically this:

Ulti got shot for the first time N4, which means he was not shot N3, which means they shot you.

You're asking for logic that I simply was not considering at the time.

JC, I'm still not sure what you're saying, but let me offer this:

Train 1 was my original train of thought. By itself.

Train 2 was after you asked the question and where I was aware that I wasn't aware how Ulti's role actually works.

EDumey posted...

It was not the only time you put forth the idea of our uncountered Doctor claim possibly being false. If it was just a one-off scenario, then sure I might buy it.

It wasn't the only time I was annoyed at Ulti.

If you want a more thought-out answer, it's that Ulti possibly not being Doctor was more in consideration before the N3 no-kill which put it pretty firmly into one of:

1. Ulti was shot and is BP
2. JC was shot and Ulti saved him
3. Scum no-killed

Scum no-killing I pretty much dismissed, so it confirmed Ulti for sure for me at that point.

But before then? I considered it as a possibility - not a particularly likely one.

But yes, previous day, that was all frustration, pretty obviously.

EDumey posted...

Really now?

Topic 10, starting Post 115.

Man that's pretty transparently just me being annoyed at Ulti.

I don't recall what you're talking about, Dumey

Saoirse is emotional but also practical.

She doesn't want to do what Lizzie says and thinks she kind of sucks but can also recognize that Narrativa Obscura is a thing and that Lizzie presents a good opportunity.

I also like seeing how characters from the Unwritten play out in this world - it's making me want to reread the series.

I suppose "supervillain dad" does mean something different for Brennus.

I think so far, Star Sapphires have been the most unsettling, and Reds have been perhaps the most impractical. Yellows are sold as the most directly fascist.

We'll have to see how Indigo develops in actual missions and such, or rp, I think.

Sultan - they supposedly used the unblockable on N2. If they scanned Ulti (likely), it just means they wouldn't have scanned him N1 - or they decided Crescent was more important to kill and they didn't have a RB or a BD.

MI doesn't read!

I don't think Nero counts as a Sinestro Corps member... Yet? Well, either way, we'll meet them soon.

ctesjbuvf posted...

No but wait it doesn't track. Knowing Ulti's full role, regardless of how the f*** it works, means scum knows N4 he will certainly die if they have shot him any night previously.

Okay, so this is on me, but when I listed those two things, there should be an "Or" between them.

Scum doesn't shoot a BP more than once without reason.

Without knowing his role? They only shot him last night.
Otherwise, they have a role scan on him.

ctesjbuvf posted...

Is Han first saying it's a fact that scum has a role scanner that knows Ulti's full role AND that they must have not shot Ulti before, that doesn't track. But I'll admit this conversation is confusing and I'm not inebriated lol.

It's all based on Scum not shooting a BP more than once, unless they specifically know it will work the next time.

Yeah.

"Works the same way as your Doc save" could be read as either:

1. You may choose to use it on any given night, but just once
2. It will stop any normal kills

TotallyNotMI posted...

While Sinestro is Brennus' favorite right now, the Indigo's are MI's favorites.

I'm actually curious about this one - I didn't think you had opportunity to see either in action, excepting the small sliver of time that Soranik was a bad girl. What made you come around this way?

I'm going to do my best to not consider Ben is automatically Scum when reviewing options, but it's hard when his entire body of work last night was basically just gaslighting.

Without sitting down with pencil and paper and sketching it out, I can't say for sure whether analyzing where a scanner fits into night actions will make any sort of difference. I would assume on JC's viability but more from that is probably sketchy.

I will stand by this as truth though - Scum doesn't shoot a claimed BP more than once unless they have reason to.

ctesjbuvf posted...

If the lynch is actually between town Han and town Wallz, then no way scum would not rather kill Han there (not a single bit of disrepect intended Wallz, Han just has a good history in this game).

I was on Han/Lea/Dumey when day ended as well, though the Neighborizer thing gives a bit of doubt and so does the whole scum team aligning opitions. I feel just as good about it being Han and Lea as yesterday.

Ben not moving helps his case too.

This logic doesn't track, Ctes. It was day 4 - aside from Ben, whose entire game persona is me being Scum before, during, and after he "read", you have other Scum who have been playing the whole game.

Not to mention that I've been on my back foot all of the past day - nobody is easier to lynch than the other option of a lynch where Town was lynched.

There's a bad case against me - if I flip yesterday, Wall isn't who's lynched next. It's Ben.

Makes more sense for Scum to have wanted Wall lynched yesterday.

JC, I'll be honest, I have no idea what you mean with your "Train 3" atm.

I think it's best to disengage here. Reread what you're saying in the morning and word it in a clear way and I'll reread it with a fresh mind and we'll go from there, okay?

Chaeix posted...

Let's revisit this tomorrow because my point is not that.

My point is that there's also 'Train 3: Why would scum shoot JC in the first place if they knew Ulti was scum?'. It's not about JC over Ulti. It's why would they shoot JC over anyone else that wasn't Ulti.

Your premise of me being shot rests on scum thinking that Ulti wouldn't save me. You got there in post 165, but not initially.

My initial premise on you being shot was thatUlti could not have been shot N3.
If the role doesn't work the way I initially read, then I have to put more consideration in.

PunishedBen posted...

See, like, if Han read the role wrong the way he describes, why would he have to rethink any of the things he said? He wouldn't.....

I'm going to bed.

If somebody read a role wrong, why would they have to then read it correctly?

Please do go to bed, Ben. This has probably been a waste of all of our time.

I'll be honest, listening to the whole Nok session, I was thinking "all of this eeriness is being set up to make the Indigos look like they can't be trusted... but in the end, they'll be fine and it will be a swerve". I was wrong about that... and glad I was! I really liked the emergent plot with the Indigos and their form of compassion being through force. I also like that it unfolded in a compassionate way where they could embrace true kindness as opposed to conformity and the epitome of order.

One of the things I said in RP was: Each Corps wants to use their power to control. They just achieve it through different means."

The Indigos were about a sort of lobotomy - prevent negativity by forcing it out - but without it, I'm still not fully wrapped around them. I'm excited to see more. Reachworld choo choo

Chaeix posted...

like, fundamentally yes, but given how little further thinking it took you to eventually realize it was a "little mix-up" it doesn't really make sense for you to be saying "beyond a doubt" initially

"beyond a doubt" suggests you've taken a thought to its conclusion. but you just thought *a little bit harder about it* yourself in post 165 and undermined your own initial premise

you see what i'm saying right?

They're two completely different trains of thought.

Train 1: Ulti was only shot N4. This means JC had to be shot N3.
Train 2: Why would Scum shoot JC over Ulti N3?

Either way, atm, I'm unsure how Ulti's role works. I've more to consider with that, but not tonight. For everyone's sake - I'm going to head to bed.

During adolescence, maybe

WickIebee posted...

Yeah, if only the Star Sapphires were so generous. We all know what they'll do when Carol and Starsa learn about Saoirse and Hal.

Nobody brought up the Star Sapphires!

PunishedBen posted...

Let me cut you off right there because this contradicts fact number 2 that scum must have scanned his role.

No, it does not.

Chaeix posted...

but like didn't you think about it earlier when you confirmed beyond a doubt that i was the shot n3

If Scum didn't shoot Ulti until N4, then they had to shoot you N3 to explain the no-kill.

That was the thought I had and it's pretty basic logic.

Chaeix posted...

I have to say that the bolded statement lines up perfectly with a change in thought being from manual to automatic >_>

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying about this, but the logic works both ways:

In a manual situation, Ulti has to save himself.
However, if Scum shot him once and Ulti saved himself, they have no reason to believe he's just a self-saving Doctor. Ergo, they don't shoot him a second time if the first time failed.

Chaeix posted...

does occulam's razor say that scum shoots the only claimed scanner when doc is alive

I was typing that this requires thinking I'm not in a place to contribute right now, but then I started thinking about it.

For N3? They only shoot you over Ulti if they're desperately afraid of you and/or think he won't save you... or think they can't kill Ulti and think he won't save you.

It's a little mix-up.

The wording of Ulti's flip "works the same as your doc save" is not explicitly clear. I think considering both possibilities requires more thinking than I can handle right now.

Chaeix posted...

so i am inebriated but i realized i may have been operating under a misunderstanding, and hopefully i can clear things up. is your current thought now Ulti's BP was automatic? because honestly i'm still under the impression that it's 'used' based off the wording and thought that's where everyone else was at

that's why i was getting after the 'had to' part because i thought we were on the same page about that actually being ulti's role, and the mistake was about when he had to use it

bahahahaha

Okay, sorry JC, if I came across as rough, but yes, it does seem like we're completely not on the same page.

I read it as Ulti could, once during the game, choose to save himself (aka, make himself BP) which seems to be what you are saying you read it as.

Then you, Dumey, and Sultan having the immediate reactions you did after that made me think "oh, he's just BP for one shot". That's what I said I read wrong.

PunishedBen posted...

So why does you reading Ulti's flip as 1 use bullet proof lead you to believe that Ulti couldn't have been targeted for the night kill any night prior to last night,

This... this is literally proof of my train of thought that I'm responding to JC with.

Because of two "facts":

1. If Scum shot Ulti and he didn't die, they wouldn't shoot him again (true, without them having further knowledge of his role)
2. If Ulti has to activate his BP for it to be used, then the first time they shot him was last night (which... now that I'm going back and reading, I'm not convinced I read it wrong)

and that JC was without a shadow of a doubt the night 3 target? I guess that's the contradiction.

It's LITERALLY... okay

If the first time Ulti was shot was Night 4, it means the no-kill on Night 3 had to have been them shooting Ulti's doc save since it would mean they didn't shoot him (unless they no-killed).

Chaeix posted...

It's literally not.

"I read it as he could, one time during the game, make himself Bulletproof." - this is a "Ulti MAY" statement

"1-use made me think he had to use it." - this is you saying that the mistake was that you thought it was an "Ulti MUST" statement

If that's not the mistake, then what was it? Because you acknowledged it was 1-use in both premises.

.... I have to ask, are you also inebriated right now? There is a really basic way that those words work that you're either ignoring or not getting.

PunishedBen posted...

Just for easier reading *shrug* highlight the important stuff.

The beginning of the post is important, especially in the context of the post after where I add on that I read it wrong.

Why did I read it wrong?

Probably explained by the first part of that post that you're claiming isn't important.

Weird.

Chaeix posted...

he fully quoted it above literally on this page so uh

Bro, he's literally removing context to frame it as bad when it's just not.

Chaeix posted...

Han, I wasn't asking about 'use', I was asking about 'had to'

It's... it's the same answer.

JC, look at your keyboard. Look at the "J" key. Now if you want to use the "J" key... you "have to" press it. Right?

PunishedBen posted...

This does not match with fact #1, OR your final statement at the end of the post.

You got your crosses tied

I mean, yes, it does? It really does?

Here's my question for you Ben - why did you remove the first part of that post you quoted? What did it say? Why were you afraid to include it in that quoted post?

Chaeix posted...

can you clarify what you mean by 'had to use it?' i'm not sure i follow when you think he had to use it

I started by just copying what you said to me before but deleted it because it was needlessly catty.

The question isn't whether or not I need you to come up with things for me because I'm too dumb to use my brain, it's whether or not you realize what I said does not make sense to say if Ben is correct in that it's a slip.

And as for use, that's an action. Use is a verb. Use declares personal direction.
If somebody punches you in the jaw, you don't say "I used my jaw to receive a punch" outside of it being in jest.

Fastbreak posted...

which also meant they let us choose one to live

Scar specifically said that Tanakata-Z would have died without our influence!

I think there's a shoe to drop about the Reds.

Scar has also said he wanted to make sure that the "good" Corps are presented as problematic, and that the "bad" Corps are presented as more sympathetic and understandable.

So we've got sympathy for the Reds. But if you're results oriented, then you understand that wanton murder for the sake of tearing down a police Corps that has explicitly been prevented from using lethal force is perhaps a little more than misguided.

Then again, I shouldn't take it seriously. Ben is accusing me of being the worst mafia player this game has seen. That's just part of the game.

I'll be vindicated when he flips anyway.

Chaeix posted...

absolutely not, i'm not giving you the opportunity to say 'well that's what i thought'

I'm really hurt you think I'm that stupid.

Chaeix posted...

wait what did you misread then? because ben's whole point was that this was your conclusion?

I read it as he could, one time during the game, make himself Bulletproof.

1-use made me think he had to use it.

Chaeix posted...

han while i am evaluating the concreteness of ben's alleged slip catch because there are parts of this post that are consistent with you reading it wrong, i would like to ask you what you read ulti's role as before i ask any other clarifying questions

I would be glad to answer, but I think the more important question is what you think I would have meant by reading it wrong.

Because me posting that I read it wrong, for that to be a lie as Ben is alleging, means that I said that saying it about nothing.

Johnbobb posted...

More often than not the wording is "eliminate the green lanterns" or "destroy the corps"

Which strikes me as more anarchist than genocidal

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/8/6/9/AAOJ0pAAESYd.jpg

JC:

At a glance, my thought was this:

1. Scum doesn't shoot a BP claiming Ulti, get no kill, and then shoot him again when nobody else is Doctor. This is obvious.
2. If Scum shot Ulti a second time, it's because they scanned him and saw that he isn't full-time Bulletproof

Please do not continue to let Ben misconstrue things in the way that is different from how they are read without someone pushing a misread of them

PunishedBen posted...

Emphasis on the ow

That's okay - you're playing pretty poorly, it's okay for you to feel hurt from it.