Lurker > adjl

Smarkil posted...

Sorry, I'm following the CDC. I'm a believer in science.

Okay? That still doesn't mean that 100-95=0.008. Furthermore, the "science" you're so keen on merely states that vaccinated people are okay without masks, indicating that they don't pose a significant transmission risk (masks have always been more about preventing transmission than personal protection). It does not say that unvaccinated people are fine to go maskless around vaccinated people.

Smarkil posted...

Regardless of the CDC instruction; infection after vaccination is much more mild regardless of the current slew of variants.

The current slew of variants, yes. Potential future variants that aren't prevented by the vaccine? Less so. There's certainly no guarantee that such variants will emerge, but why increase that risk by giving them the opportunity to breed?

Smarkil posted...

As of today, a total of 223 people have died after getting vaccinated. That's 223 out of hundreds of millions in the US. 0.00000223. And I'm sure those 223 were probably severely compromised to begin with.

That's... not how you pick a denominator for determining probability. You also can't look at current rates and use that to predict the rates that will be seen once current precautions are lifted. Not without substantially more complex analyses than that, anyway.

Smarkil posted...

He'll be fine. He doesn't need to get his underwear up his ass because some people aren't wearing masks.

At the beginning of April, Nova Scotia was running less than 10 new cases per day. About a month ago, a family came here from Ontario and ignored the self-isolation requirements imposed on out-of-province travellers so they could go to a party with some people here. On April 17, we had had 1800 cases since the pandemic began. Yesterday, that total had reached 4736. We went from being generally pretty unrestricted (masks indoors, distancing recommendations, no giant parties, but otherwise life more or less as normal) to being fully locked down in a desperate scramble to get the largest outbreak of the pandemic under control, all because a handful of jackasses thought they were too good for the rules.

There's more than personal risk involved in this. This outbreak isn't particularly dangerous to me, but I am affected by what has to happen to keep it from getting out of control. I have every reason to be angry at people who unnecessarily risk outbreaks that will affect me.

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Smarkil posted...

Your chance of getting infected after getting vaccinated is like .008%.

The most effective vaccines are in the 95% efficacy range. Some are as low as 60%. There also remains the very real possibility of new variants bypassing vaccines and proliferating among populations that aren't practicing any other measures because they're vaccinated. Given the negligible cost of wearing a mask (oh no it's slightly uncomfortable), erring on the side of caution until case numbers get much lower isn't altogether unreasonable.

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shadowsword87 posted...

Oh, Target, it'll bring more people in because, from what it sounds like, they're the first major business to withdraw their mask requirement.

"Target has dropped its mask requirement for fully vaccinated customers, joining with Walmart, Trader Joe's, Starbucks, Costco and other businesses."

First paragraph of the article. They're among the first, certainly, but they're not exactly setting a trend. It's also really a given that, once one major business does it, everyone else will follow suit due to the competitive disadvantage of sticking to the requirement.

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Because there's a lot wrong with most anime, such that enjoying it requires one to ignore the bad parts and focus on the good. When somebody starts pointing out the bad things, it dismantles that illusion, so people get defensive about it.

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Target announcing this? Or the CDC? I'm talking mostly about the CDC saying vaccinated people don't need masks, which I'm sure is scientifically sound (and generally good news, since there had been some question about it), but was announced very irresponsibly due to how people are inevitably going to react to and abuse it. It's a given that major businesses will be updating their policies accordingly, largely erring on the side of letting people go maskless because they know many of their customers have been desperately salivating for this day since the day the masks went on. For Target, yeah, it's a PR move more than anything else.

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It is. Really, this whole announcement has been rather thoroughly botched. Legislation should have been in place to handle mask enforcement before it was announced that they weren't needed for certain things anymore. For that matter, legislation should have been prepared for this months ago, since it was blatantly obvious that it was coming eventually.

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shadowsword87 posted...

I don't think you can ask for medical records like that.
The US is awful at a lot of medical stuff, but, medical privacy is a big thing.

I'm sure some sort of legislation will have emerged by the time this is all over and done with to create an exception for it. Of course, by the time such legislation actually comes through, it'll probably be a moot point, but setting some kind of precedent isn't a bad idea.

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Lokarin posted...

I wonder how a small "no-exceptions" tax would do in the US... maybe something like 1%, I mean - who can argue with a only 1% tax, that's tiny!?!

But, there's no way to dodge it... no way to deduct it, no way to avoid it, you file... you pay

People would object to it, of course, but provided there are enough other deductions available that those who can't afford extra taxes will be fine, it's really only going to be the people for whom that's several hundred million dollars that have anything to complain about (and, frankly, they don't actually have anything to complain about).

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Cacciato posted...

Seven if you include the mouse wheel click.

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Veedrock- posted...

Weird that the US was ever ahead, I remember the news back before distribution started that Canada pre-ordered twice as many vaccines as residents while America was late to start ordering and Trump even declined some.

The key difference is that the US has a pretty sizable amount of domestic production capacity, which they've been able to rely on instead of needing a ton of orders. Canada shut down most of its domestic vaccine production several years ago, which has turned out to be a mistake, so they've been relying on stuff being brought in.

TheSlinja posted...

yeah but isnt canada also HELLA delaying second doses? I heard people wont get their second dose for 3 months

3-4, yeah. Dunno about other provinces, but I just booked mine in Nova Scotia, and it automatically booked the second one 15 weeks later. Honestly, though, I'm fine with that. The first dose provides a non-trivial amount of immunity already, so I'd much rather see more of the population partially immunized early than a smaller number fully immunized while the rest has to wait longer.

My only real complaint about how the rollout has been structured is that it's been almost entirely age-based. Health care workers got first dibs, obviously, as did LTC residents/staff, but since then it's been a matter of working their way down the age brackets, starting with the oldest. I get that older people are much more at risk (although some of these variants seem to be bucking that trend), but so much of the spread is being driven by essential workers (regardless of their age, though many essential workers are younger) that I think prioritizing them would have been much more sensible. Granted, prior to about a month ago, we barely had any spread here, and now we're just about at the point where everyone's eligible anyway, so it's a fairly moot point.

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I wonder what plans they have for determining whether or not somebody is vaccinated. Probably none, which is why this is a terrible idea.

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LinkPizza posted...

Why are they so far apart?

They automatically spaced them by 105 days, or 15 weeks. That seems to be the standard spacing around here, presumably because that's more in line with available supplies while still being within the 4-month window that's recommended.

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Apparently I spoke too soon, 30+ appointments opened up today. I've booked my first jab for June 4th, with the second on September 17. I'm gonna lick everything.

SantaKhala posted...

I need to wait and figure out what side effects these "experimental drugs" have on the human body... Do they cause something other than blood clots? Do they cause premature cancer?

Time will tell. But until then, I refuse to be the lab rat.

What are you waiting for? The usual standards for numbers of trial participants were met before the vaccines were approved. Even if you feel that that isn't enough (which is largely baseless, given that it's the only standard that's ever needed for new drugs), there have been hundreds of millions of doses administered since they were approved, which is several orders of magnitude larger than any prior clinical trial. Nothing in these vaccines is particularly novel, aside from the immunogenic material (the viral data itself), so it's not like there are unknown chemicals present that might cause unexpected long-term consequences (and, really, long-term consequences could easily take decades to show up, so waiting for that isn't reasonable).

So... what standards do you feel haven't been met?

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hungrymike posted...

s and k do nothing c doesn't already do

Shhhhhh

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I tried RO briefly, many years ago. I quite quickly hit a wall where progress was too slow to be really engaging, dabbled in private servers with boosted exp for a bit, then got bored and dropped it. I believe this was fairly shortly after quitting WoW, though, so I was coming off of having multiple fully-realized characters to play around with to having nothing, on top of a slower progression rate, so that transition was probably part of why it was less pleasant. Maybe I should give it another shot.

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No, yes. My province opened up vaccinations to the 35-39 range on Friday, I'm 32. I should be eligible soon, at which point I plan to book an appointment as soon as possible.

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Kyuubi4269 posted...

What do you mean "rather"? Is he going to release prisoners to fund college?

Presumably it's a long-term investment, resulting in fewer incarcerations moving forward and therefore less money spent on prisoners. Gotta spend money to recover money, too.

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It's easy to say a system isn't broken when you don't have to rely on it.

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SunWuKung420 posted...

So dumb. Innate immunity is stronger.

Vaccines are innate immunity. You just trigger it artificially in a controlled scenario with limited potential to cause harm instead of getting very seriously ill and taking solace in knowing that, if you survive, you probably won't have to deal with it again.

It really shouldn't surprise me how many anti-vaxxers have no sweet clue how vaccines or the immune system work, yet I still find myself periodically baffled by their ignorance.

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On repeat? No, never. Watch them multiple times before launch? Usually only if they came up as a recommended video. The last game I was really hyped for was Xenoblade X, before that was probably Brawl, before that was probably Twilight Princess.

The music comparison is actually pretty apt, because if I did watch a trailer many times, it was usually more because the music was worth listening to repeatedly than anything else.

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They've helped, but there are far too few consequences for compromising their footage and preventing them from helping, so there's still plenty of room to improve accountability.

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Metalsonic66 posted...

I dunno man I can't really tell bottled waters apart most of the time

I can often notice differences between them, but I certainly don't have a strong preference,, and none of them are good enough to justify paying for a bottle instead of just drinking tap water (unless I'm somewhere where tap water isn't safe to drink).

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I'll agree that kale is super overrated, but broccoli, cauliflower, brussels sprouts, and cabbage are all great.

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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

I'm afraid that's not enough to meet the high bar for proof that adji has set. Have you personally interviewed these individuals and determined that they lacked the proper credentials?

Do you really believe that that's the standard you've set for proof? That "I've heard there were observers blocked from observing" needs anything more than "I haven't seen any reason to believe that" to completely strip it of what little argumentative value it might have had?

If you believe that there is a significant possibility that the election was tampered with to enough of an extent to affect the outcome, you should have evidence of that. If you don't have evidence of that, then you shouldn't believe it and especially should not go around trying to convince others that it is a significant possibility. Otherwise, you're just being intellectually dishonest and speculating irresponsibly.

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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

However my understanding is that the judges were not willing to consider the cases based on criteria that precedes the examination of evidence.

An understanding that's based on what, exactly? Because everything I've heard on the matter has consisted largely of exchanges amounting roughly to this:

Judge: Do you have any evidence supporting the claims you are trying to make?
Lawyer: No
Judge: K lol

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

I don't know. I wasn't on Trump's legal team. There were stories about observers being blocked from observing. Maybe testimonies related to that.

You don't need to be on Trump's legal team to know about evidence beyond "maybe they found somebody that was going to say something I dunno." If it's out there, you should be able to find it. That you haven't found it either means you aren't looking (which is odd for somebody that wants to believe it) or that nothing meaningful exists (which is a whole lot more consistent with the fact that literally no cases have made it into court).

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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

The reason given was first, the election hadn't happened yet so there were no damages to sue over and second, the election is over and they should have brought their case before the election took place. Trump's team was never allowed to present their evidence to the court.

What evidence?

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I'm largely ambivalent about most gins I've tried, but Bruichladdich's The Botanist is quite good. I'd drink that straight. It's a bit on the pricey side, though, such that I can't really be bothered to buy a bottle to keep around.

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shadowsword87 posted...

I have no idea why you would drink a worse version of something you don't like.

Presumably because he's diabetic. Full-sugar sodas aren't exactly good for diabetics.

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It's pretty easily the best mainstream pop I've tried, but I've kind of gone off of pop in general in recent years, including Dr Pepper. As such, I could agree that it's not very good, but it's still better than the rest of the fizzy syrup that's out there.

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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

Looking back through Mead's posts the subject was "politicians that want people to believe the election was stolen?" This is not the same as it being unfair as Mead later changed it to, nor is discussion of the 2016 election a reflection on all elections.

Trump may have wanted people to believe an aspect of that election was stolen or a different election was stolen. But we're discussing something else.

I really don't see much point in creating a logical distinction between "Trump openly lied about a part of the 2016 election being stolen with no basis because he couldn't handle losing" and "Trump openly lied about the 2020 election being stolen with no basis because he couldn't handle losing." The obsessive, infantile narcissism is identical in both cases, as is the commitment to undermining the fair democratic process with abject falsehoods.

Quite simply, in Trump's eyes, the 2016 election was also stolen from him, he just believes that he was amazing enough and inspired such devotion among his followers that he still managed to attain an electoral victory despite that theft. Then, from his perspective, the thieves just worked harder to take the actual victory away from him in 2020.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

Unless you put it through Google translate into 4 different languages and back into English, then no, that's not what you're reading.

Oh, I didn't know Google added Crackpot to Reality translation capabilities. That's new. I'll have to keep that in mind to save myself some effort next time I read such nonsense.

The judges did not "shirk their duties." They were presented with cases whose entire basis was that Trump said something illegal must have happened, they asked the lawyers responsible if there was any actual evidence, and the lawyers said there was not because actual perjury carries much more significant consequences than lying outside of court. The judges did not accept the cases because there were no cases. Period.

If a judge were presented with significant evidence and still rejected the case? Then you might have a basis for claiming that they shirked their duties. But that's not at all what happened, so you shouldn't believe that that's what happened.

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Oak Island is actually less than a 1-hour drive from here, but I can't go check because travelling is ill-advised due to the current outbreak (thanks, Ontario).

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KJ StErOiDs posted...

Yes but rarely.

This. It's good, but generally not worth the cost.

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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

But not stolen.

Actually, he pretty explicitly did say that the only reason he didn't win the popular vote was because of fraud (which, as is par for the course, he had absolutely no proof of). The overall election may not have been "stolen," but in Trump's eyes, the popular vote was, and I have every reason to expect that he would have responded the same way if he had lost overall.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

any time the matter was taken before a judge it was met with cowardice and the judges shirked their duty.

The judges were cowards who shirked their duty because they... asked the lawyers presenting the case if they had any evidence? Is that really what I'm reading here?

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Throw some butter and brown sugar into a pan, then when it melts and thickens a bit (careful not to caramelize it too much), toss some sliced apples in there and sautee them until either they soften slightly or the sauce thickens back up (it will thin as the water comes out of the apples, but not if you don't cook the apples that far). Splash a bit of rum, whiskey, or brandy in there if you're feeling fancy (flambee it if you're really cool), and you've got an excellent pancake topping. Seasoning it with cinnamon and nutmeg also helps (I do that before the apples go in for easier mixing).

I usually also put a splash of maple in with the butter and brown sugar, but obviously that's not an option if you're replacing maple syrup.

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MrAntisocial posted...

Finally! If masks can't stop a fart, then how can they stop a virus!?

Because the droplets that carry Covid are something like 4-5 orders of magnitude (that is, 10,000-100,000 times) larger than the odorants responsible for fart smells. I can't be bothered to fish out the exact numbers again, but it's in that ball park.

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Same.

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blu posted...

Right, of course those are the effects. I personally like masks, but people went from Listen to the scientists, wear a mask, to Dont listen to the scientists, wear a mask. We decide whats safe, not the CDC.

No, that's not the position at all. The issue is that it's basically impossible to legislate or otherwise enforce "only wear a mask if you're unvaccinated." Nobody's saying vaccinated people aren't safe to go maskless, they're saying that it's unsafe to remove mask mandates from public policy.

The science is sound. It's just not practically applicable just yet, and won't be until case numbers are low enough that unvaccinated people won't pose a risk by eschewing masks.

OhhhJa posted...

Some are worse than having no mask at all because the masks build up moisture and ends up breaking up droplets into smaller particles that stay in the air longer

When you break droplets up into smaller particles, they stay in the air for less time, not more. Rate of evaporation is very strongly correlated with surface area:mass ratio, and that ratio goes up the smaller a spheroid gets. This is basic physics, dude.

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It's really only anti-science if you say that science is wrong. Saying that blindly following the science in designing policy is a bad idea is not saying that science is wrong. Just acknowledging that waiting until case numbers get low enough to unvaccinated people to not need masks is going to yield better overall outcomes than trying to implement procedures to figure out who is and is not vaccinated in a public setting.

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Muscles posted...

Isn't it illegal for businesses to ask for medical records? My GM was talking about it today and said we can't even ask if they were vaccinated, let alone ask for proof

It wouldn't surprise me if it is, in many jurisdictions, but if that's the route that the government chooses to take to manage the pandemic, I would expect an exception to be passed to allow it.

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darkknight109 posted...

So what do you call it when several thousand Republicans attack police and invade the capitol building with the intention of stopping the democratic process that would confirm Biden's vote and see him officially made president-elect?

It's just a prank, bro!

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ZayKayWill posted...

I don't think that matters. Even if you are vaccinated and immune, you could still carry the virus and spread it to other people. I mean...right?

Presumably, if the CDC is publicly announcing this, it's because they've determined that that isn't a significant risk. Prior to this announcement, my inclination was to err on the side of caution in case vaccinated people could still transmit it, since the jury was still out on that, but the CDC is the jury. If they're saying it's okay, then it's probably okay.

Now, whether or not it's sensible to make this announcement when the public is guaranteed to respond inappropriately to it? That's another question, and I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

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Freddie Mercury is all that immediately comes to mind. Damn fine voice on that man, plus if we presume that his range is added to my own, he shores up my weaker upper register (I'm quite squarely in baritone territory).

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Huntdown gives me Kung Fury vibes in all the right ways.

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I'm not surprised. People are tired enough of all this that they'll latch on to anything that sounds like it means they don't have to do it anymore. To that end, I think publishing this was pretty irresponsible on the CDC's part.

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Monopoman posted...

I mean even with a no mask needed ordinance across the country businesses could still require one if they deem it so. The same way a business can refuse to serve someone that refuses to wear a shirt or put on shoes.

Now that business might find some very irate customers with that assuming other businesses nearby drop the requirement but just saying.

Businesses can, but if the past year has taught us anything, it's that relying on businesses to make potentially self-sacrificing decisions for the sake of public health isn't the most effective way to improve public health. Especially not when those decisions are unpopular enough to cost them business. Even those that might be inclined to will probably end up not doing so because of the potential for people going elsewhere in response, particularly where most small businesses are kind of desperate for revenue after a year of this.

DirtBasedSoap posted...

already been in multiple arguments with customers at work over this today. THANKS CDC!!

Case in point: it's already begun.

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Monopoman posted...

I mean if the government really wanted to ensure only those fully vaccinated people get this they could create an ID or something that shows that they have been fully vaccinated. It would be quite an expense creating a special ID just for that though, so I doubt it happens.

Pretty much. Counterfeit ID's would also be inevitable, plus it's considerably more work for businesses to enforce an ID requirement than to just call out people that aren't wearing masks. The logistics of it are just too complicated to justify doing it, particularly where the alternative is just continuing to require masks until case numbers get low enough (which, despite some people's insistence, really isn't a big deal).

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Metalsonic66 posted...

Except Trump

It's funny because it's true.

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