Lurker > bsp77

SAlYAN posted...

I understand that.

I'm just saying that your assertion that Ace must have done something to warrant the hostility she got over AC6 just factually isn't true. The Fromsoft community are just as capable of being grandstanding, condescending, inhospitable dickbags as any other gaming community.

It's also important to note timeframes. Fromsoft's community tends to get better and less toxic the further away they get from a release. I ust like, again, every other gamer community on the planet. On launch, the fanboys come out, angry and frothing. And Ace was playing near launch.

Fair enough

AceMos posted...

see you are thinking easy mode would mean make the game easy

when all i andmany others would want would be toning the difficulty down a bit

take a bit less damage and a bit more time to evade attacks

small minor tweaks

again some of us have disabilities that make these games very hard to play

Regardless, I still believe Dark Souls would not have become the behemoth it is if it had options.

I am sorry you have disabilities (not sarcasm), but unfortunately not everything is for everybody

AceMos posted...

and what was it that made the game frustrating for you

Difficulty mixed with the mission structure. Dying at the end and having to redo the whole thing. I also found it tedious.

And if there was an easy mode would have used it? Probably lol

That doesn't change my feelings about what the Dark Souls community was built around. If I could have breezed through the games, it would not be one of my favorite series.

SAlYAN posted...

It really doesn't matter.

I've been as respectful as possible throughout this entire discussion, and I've been called an idiot, been accused of never playing the games l, and given several flavors of "git gud" in this topic aline. And you really don't have to look far to find toxic souls players
I distinctly remember when DS1 was still the big game, and entire COMMUNITIES were born out of abusing Invasions to grief and fuck up the game for tatgeted players. Hell, it was popular on THIS BOARD, and if 2010s CEmen are a legitimate part of it, that reflects pretty poorly on this non-toxic image youre hyping. The souls community isn't this haven of reasonable saints you're suggesting. It's a gamer community similar to many, many others.

Like anything else, you have to FIND the good communities. Because the player base as an average collective are about as helpful and supportive as YouTube commenters.

Yeah, some people suck. A lot of Souls players are cool though. Why do you think many of them allow themselves to be randomly summoned to help people?

AceMos posted...

tell me do you REALLY think having one of the harder bosses as the tutorial boss before the player even has access to changing their mechs load out

is good design

before you can even customize it to fit your play style

before you have even had a chance to get familiar with the gameplay

even your beloved professional reviewers where criticizing the difficulty of the TUTORIAL BOSS

I played it and don't remember the tutorial boss being hard. I did give up after like 10 missions because I found it more frustrating than fun

AceMos posted...

good for you that was not my experience with armored core 6

maybe listen to other ppls experiences instead of just assuming yours are universal

I still question how you broached it

And of course some people are just assholes. Ignore them, plenty of helpful people

AceMos posted...

you called ppl petulant children who wont try

Because that is how you are acting by complaining about something that maybe isn't for you.

I gave up on Bloodborne the first time I played and was my first Soulsborne. But I did not complain about difficulty levels; I just decided it wasn't for me. Luckily, I returned to it two years later and it clicked. And people online were very helpful because I was polite and not complaining.

HighSeraph posted...

This concept that you believe that the games should have an easy mode is because you're bad at the games is so lazy.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/d/df16e457.jpg
I've beaten literally every soulsborne except Sekiro which I never even bothered to play and I've never seen a good argument against there being difficulty settings in the game.

Did I ever say anyone was bad at games? Read over everything I said. I often said the opposite.

It's not gatekeeping because it isn't about separating people based on skill. It is about a community of overcoming challenge.

AceMos posted...

i remember when i tried to be part of that community when i played armor core 6

i got bombarded with GIT GUD style replies

even thoe there was actually alot of push back against the high difficulty of the TUTORIAL BOSS it did not matter if you found it unbalanced you where treated like a scrub

an easy mode does not need to make the game easy

just tone it down a bit so that ppl can learn the mechanics better

as some of us have disabilities that make this stuff harder

Real question here. Did you state what your issue was and politely ask for advice or did you complain about it being impossible? In my experience, most Souls gamers are super cool about offering advice. But if people just complain and that's it, they get the "git gud" response.

All you naysayers are missing the point about community. If you were a part of it, you would get it. And I do believe all of you could be a part of it. The games are about adapting and learning much more than difficulty. But you won't try, and just complain like petulant children.

SAlYAN posted...

And yet only Fromsoft seem to get this special treatment when it comes to their design philosophy.

The Ubisoft Open World is so widespread and recognized it can easily be codified as the studio's design philosophy, and they've put put a hell of a lot of massively successful games with it that people love. It doesn't immunize them from criticism.

Nor does EAs design philosophy of "make a problem, sell a solution," immunize them.

The only difference is that those two studios are considered fair game, where Fromsoft is a special little lamb whose "artistic vision" has been used as a shield against critique ever since DS1 launched with item descriptions that lied to the player (which, ironically, was changed in re-releases, after YEARS of fans insisting it was some deliberate, artsy move to make to distrust the UI. Sometimes, a flaw is a flaw).

It's a commonly cited joke, but "Souls games don't have flaws or problems, just FEATURES that make it more EXTREME!" That's been the attitude of the discourse for years, and you can see it in spades in this topic.

The difference is that FromSoftware's philosophy is beloved by critics (look at Metacritic) and many gamers. The others are not.

Like, this argument doesn't even make sense. It is like saying why is Martin Scorcese's style revered while Zack Snyder's is reviled?

PraetorXyn posted...

The shared experience among players of overcoming the difficulty is the thing that makes their games different. With an easy mode theyd just be like every other game.

Bingo

And I don't think beating it elevates me above others. I think most of y'all could beat it too with perseverance. Perfectly acceptable for you to not want to, but this isn't about elitism.

HighSeraph posted...

It's gatekeeping and that's it

That is objectively wrong. It can be construed as gatekeeping, but the "that's it" part is wrong. Read the thread for the other reasons, whether you think them right or wrong.

There are legitimate arguments on both sides, even if I have my opinion. But honestly, do you think these games would be as popular or critically acclaimed without their reputation?

I also question how many of you have really tried the games. I can get through them, and I don't consider myself an expert gamer.

Edit: I just saw what you added and that is 100% false. I don't care what others do.

Dungeater posted...

a lot of you are really motivated by hypothetically seeing other ppl get mad

why that motivate u

Like Persona? Making other people mad seems to be his joy in life.

I am not trying to be rude to anyone or insult anyone in here. But I do feel that difficulty options would be harmful to the community and so I am debating that. Honestly, I don't think it would have mattered too much if Elden ring had difficulty options. They could justify that as a more open world accessible Dark Souls, which it already kind of is. But there is still the downside of how people rallied around trying to beat Melania, and if there were difficulty options, it just would not have been the same.

David1988 posted...

I think were also underestimating how strong the temptation would be for a large number of the player base to use easy mode. And if they had, most of these people would not have gotten the great experience of beating a Dark Souls type game which would undermine the games future success and name recognition. Lets not be daft, structured difficulty is the reason FromSoft games are where they are today, its not even a dev issue but a financial one

I admittedly would have caved on my first couple FromSoftware games

SAlYAN posted...

Dark Souls took off perfectly fine on its own. Fromsoft didn't really start leaning in on the "omg it's so hard guys" angle until DS2, and the "Prepare to Die" re-release of 1, both of which were markedly worse received than Vanilla DS1.

They leaned into a reputation, and now the reputation is an expectation. We have no idea how the series would have developed had Bamco not decided to ride the meme train.

But the difficulty was built into the first one, so you cannot say it had nothing to do with it.

The first one took off by word of mouth, not marketing

SAlYAN posted...

As someone who would never use it, an easy mode would have absolutely no impact on the game whatsoever, and every bit of crying about the idea is "hardcore gamer elitism" gatekeeping at its finest.

Anybody who wanted their "pride and accomplishment" could still get it, and we wouldn't be needlessly telling people with accessibility issues "get fucked, it's not for you."

My point about this is that Dark Souls would not have started it own sub genre if it didn't force everyone who played it to adapt along with everyone else. It led to a feeling of accomplishment and a community. Call us elitist if it makes you feel better, but this why it is as (in)famous as it is.

NoxObscuras posted...

Lol, what game in my trophies even makes you say that?

Oh, I don't know. You have a lot of trophies across alot of games. I am not obsessed with you quite enough to look at all your individual trophies. Maybe I'll properly stalk you when I next boot up my PS5.

Also, I do get your point about overly hard games just becoming a chore sometimes. I do feel that way occasionally, especially about optional challenges, but for some reason I don't get nearly as frustrated with Soulsborne games. There is something about them that makes me want to keep trying.

NoxObscuras posted...

Sure, I'll admit that it wouldn't have gotten the huge following that it did without that game philosophy. They were fairly unknown when Armored Core was their main game.

But that's why I typically stay out of these easy mode arguments. I only care about Armored Core (been playing those games since the 1st one on PS1). I just couldn't resist pointing out that "Miyazaki said it" would be used in arguments now.

That's the thing though. I know I could "git gud" if I put in the effort. But I also know that it would feel like a chore to me, rather than fun. I've put myself through that in the past when achievement hunting. I'd rather not do that now.

I accept that Souls likes just aren't for me. I'm just salty because it's bled into my favorite mech series lol

Fair enough.

Remember, I can see your PS5 trophies, so I know you are good enough

Vivaldi7 posted...

This post isn't about you. Please get a grip. And make a point while you're at it.

This makes no sense. You made a general comment that I responded to.

Dungeater posted...

i dont even understand what vivaldi is trying to say

Exactly

Vivaldi7 posted...

But those games have their difficulty well balanced and play tested....you know.... which is common since oh I dunno 19 fucking 90 something.
From soft be like "Fuck that, that stuff costs too much time and money ...just let them grind and level to OP levels and sell this flaw as a feature.

Wow, what an unbelievablely wrong post.

I almost never actually grind. Only Sekiro made me grind because I sucked at parrying. My fault.

Yes, post 7 gets to the crux of it:

"Had we taken that approach, I don't think the game would have done what it did, because the sense of achievement that players gain from overcoming these hurdles is such a fundamental part of the experience. Turning down difficulty would strip the game of that joy - which, in my eyes, would break the game itself."

NoxObscuras posted...

It wouldn't completely stop arguments, but you can bet that people against easy mode are going to use this as "proof" now. "See, even Miyazaki says that easy mode wouldn't work." Yet other games that clearly take inspiration from them, like Star Wars Fallen Order, are able to include difficulty settings no problem.

I usually agree with you, but you are off base here. If Dark Souls had difficulty options, do you think it would have become so famous? Do you think it would have started it own sub genre? Do you think the Jedi series would even exist?

It is the game philosophy itself that touched a chord with so many people, and a nerve with so many others.

If there was an easier option, I admit I would have caved and likely used it at certain points. My sense of accomplishment would have diminished and I wouldn't hold the gamez in the regard that I do. When you persevere, you realize it was fair all along and you only had to improve. That is when the brilliance of the design becomes noticeable; not when you cheese a boss.

I personally hate the game philosophy that From Soft has now. Armored Core 6 is vastly different from the previous entries because of them incorporating what they've learned from making Dark Souls games. Thankfully mods exist

I have a hard time believing you couldn't make it through the games if you actually tried. Usually the first Soulsborne is the biggest hurdle. Bloodborne was mine and I quit the first time. Retried it a couple years later with a better attitude and it is now one of my GOATs.

Honestly though, I don't like Armored Core 6. I do find that frustrating because of the mix of difficulty and having it be mission based instead of progression based like Soulsborne. Doesn't work for me.

Dungeater posted...

getting good is not and never has been a requirement. i dont blame people for thinking these games are harder than they are based on bamco's PREPARE TO DIEEEEEEE marketing plus all the 'git gud' bros

Noah Caldwell has a great bit about this in his Dark Souls dissection

To be fair, I said git gud or git over it. If it is for you, great, play it and improve as Miyazaki intended. If not for you, move on and stop complaining. Not every game is for every person.

I don't literally mean you, Dungeater, as I know you are a fan.

People need to stop complaining about difficulty levels in Soulsborne games. Either git gud or git over it. It's just sad.

^ wow

Harsh but mostly true. I also had to teach myself all of this stuff (as a fellow guy on the spectrum), and I never thought about whether or not I put in more effort. And having now been friends with all types of people, I can accurately say that almost everyone has issues, whether noticeable or not. The funny thing is that over the last few years, I have had people resent me for having it so easy when it comes to dating. They have no idea what I did to change myself. The main thing that helped me is that I was never overly negative about it

MC_BatCommander posted...

The whole "hating your spouse" thing boomers do is really weird.

Agreed. And the sad thing is that I grew up hearing that so often that I assumed I was supposed to be miserable with my first wife.

What the fuck is this?

Best of the century

Congrats to whoever wins but not me. I already have it pre-ordered so if I somehow win, then give it to a different poster.

Good riddance. I hate people who lie about their life.

HudGard posted...

One more hour. I caved and watched the launch trailer.

I heard it is very spoilery

DavidZ2844 posted...

When the game first came out 2 years ago, I promised myself I would go through all 3 Souls games and Bloodborne one more time each to prepare for it. Homework I gave to myself basically.

2 years later I finally finished all those games, took me forever because I did full completionist all bosses+DLC runs for them, along with just being super busy with school and playing other games here and there.

Looking back I actually finished the last game of that 4 game run back in August, Ive just been super lazy to getting around finally starting Elden Ring. I have no excuse now basically.

Get on it then! You don't need to watch a video because you will love it

DavidZ2844 posted...

@C_Pain

Video link? I know nothing about Elden Ring but I do plan on playing it eventually, as a huge Soulsborne fan. I feel like something like this 4 hour deep dive will push me into finally starting it.

Can I ask why you haven't played it if a huge Soulsborne fan? That seems odd to me.

Played a couple hours today. I suck, but I think I'm starting to get my groove back. Leveled up twice to 166. Just put the points into endurance to keep me in the medium load range easier.

I've had my share of f'ed up camping trips to Apple River

Dungeater posted...

update: he hopped up on our patio chair. i went to say hi, he stuck around for a minute. then flew up to a tree with a bunch or other birds in it :)

Yay! Nice work

I love saving animals. While on a run,, I oftentimes come across turtles trying to cross the road. I pick them up and take them to the closest lake.

16 GB file downloading right now. Looks like that is the full Shadow of the Erdtree update, but it won't be keyed to work quite yet

cjsdowg posted...

Where did this idea come that these guys are only going for 10s. I have seen this before. But honestly guys standards are shit low.

Depends on the guy. Some have way too high standards, some have almost none, most are in between, so people probably shouldn't generalize

8. Great marriage, daughters, lots of friends, nice home, can mostly do what I want

Job isn't too satisfying and I worry I could be let go, and not find something comparable financially. Still have general anxiety issues too, but less so now that I married again.

Quite often. I have seen one fly by my house a few times since moving in in March

Agent_Stroud posted...

Uhh, you might want to rephrase that before somebody makes a joke about the state of your bathroom after eating said tacos and enchiladas.

Lol, nice

Diceheist posted...

Problem is other people are not generally volunteering for practice communication. It's not a 0 cost/risk endeavor like losing a video game level repeatedly.

Yeah, need to find the right people. One of my friends, who I met back in 2017, was very socially awkward, to the point of offending and annoying people, but I helped run a Meetup group. We encouraged him to keep coming. Over the next couple years, he grew so much just by being exposed to people being social. He gained a lot of friends, including women, and lost his virginity about 2 years ago (at the age of like 34 I think). He is good dude, still awkward, but people like him.

Admittedly, if we didn't give him extra chances and welcome him into our social group, he probably wouldn't be where he is socially. He definitely really tried to better himself, but he also had friends who gave him that chance.

Not sure if I am really agreeing with either side of the argument here. I am somewhere in between because it can be complex.

Zelda posted...

No thank you

That settles it

Heineken14 posted...

I mean, so do I, but if I'm out and about or got doing a bunch of shit and don't feel like standing around making something... I'm definitely hitting up the Bell.

Oh, I get it. Nothing wrong with getting fast food in a pinch, as I do too. It is the people who get it multiple times a week. Learn to cook.

Fast food is a waste of money. I make bomb ass tacos and enchiladas at home. Can make enough for me and my wife, both for dinner and leftovers the next day, for like $20

Neo posted...

The OG is a classic and just barely beats out Vengeance.

Yep. Pretty sure this is the consensus too.

I am most excited for MP4, but Echoes of Wisdom was the biggest surprise

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Seriously

Not gonna call someone an incel about it, but it is not a good look

Baron_Ox posted...

general consensus? where?

News articles and fan reactions were very negative to Sony and very positive to Nintendo and Xbox

That is as general consensus as we can get without an unbiased poll.