Lurker > Sheep007

PunishedBen posted...

btw I forget is Han the Sbell whisperer? Did he conclude you were town?

I think he said he would know by page 6 and was then kinda like ehhh

Obellisk posted...

I am not one to speak, I left you to your own devices day 1, however. Han was obv town based on his repeat "quicknotes" Post. Scum Han doesn't repeat that post. Han does to tell me he's town. I'm sorry I wasn't here to stop it.

Oh, hey SBell. I was rather angry with you after EoD, when you had not voted any of my excellent lynch options. You can make it up to me by helping me murder scum today.

MZero and Chang are not vig kills. Both had very strong D1s.

Leanansidhe posted...

I have no idea who's in the lead, what a mess. How entertaining. There's definitely scum in the group staying out of this and splintering/not voting. Not an earth shaking insight but this is like six people fighting over the lynch smh

This post stuck out to me a lot during my reread. One of my first instincts after seeing the flip was to want to murder everyone on the Han lynch, but I am certain that at least some Scum were either on Ben or just didn't vote one of the main lynches. We obviously need to deal with some of the crap that happened at EoD first, but I do not want to get stuck on Ulti/Plum or something all day.

I'll start with one little snippet from my wall: I think that if theres a Plum/Red scum pairing, Tidus is probably also Scum based on his EoD actions. Lea and Ben both look even better if this is the case. I think this scenario probably leaves us with something like a Plum/Red/BCT/Tidus team, in which case I can understand why Red would spend as little time as possible playing.

Also yeah, I didn't properly look at the flips but Mayor and especially Lie Detector are ridiculously powerful roles to lose. Basically a one-shot omniscient scanner.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I too would love to know why, despite it being noon in Dutchland, Death just kinda stood around the whole time and didn't pick a side.

Actually I like Ben's idea more than my wall. Let's hear what everyone was thinking at EoD.

Man, I wrote half of a wall and then gave up because I expected to be dead last night and it was becoming very long. Lemme finish it before I go to bed.

##Vote: Plum

It should have been him.

Also hey Lea, minor spoilers for the wall but you are one of two people in the entire game who comes out of that EoD without making my skin crawl (the other has also posted as I type this). Congratulations.

Bulbasaur
Decidueye

PunishedBen posted...

Uhh Sheep dont unvote i think

gotchu buddy x

##Vote: Plum

not getting caught up in this EoD. Voting Plum.

##Unvote

what the fuck Han seriously

Han is better than this. Ben is not the play here. Look at Han tomorrow for the love of god

Holy shit what the fuck do not lynch Ben are y'all insane

There's seven minutes left and our top lynch has three fucking votes. This is a mess of an EoD. I do not want to overthink this Plum vote but I am fucking paranoid

okay I fuckin love BCT's response to Ben. Town points to him.

mildly related but holy shit Tidus just appearing ten minutes before deadline with that makes me want to brush my teeth with chainmail you are not helping my generous outlook on you buddy

UltimaterializerX posted...

An abysmal read list is a pretty good reason to lynch someone.

Let me put it this way: do you think Town Tidus has a better reads list?

Red has been obstinate the entire game up to this point, though.

I feel Red tends to be more sly and less stubborn as scum, but it's probably been about half a decade since I saw scum Red so I'm hesitant to go all-in on that one

UltimaterializerX posted...

Hider will self resolve. Off.

His scum list is the three players that tied themselves to each other the hardest.

You got me bro. Lea/Ben/me all called each other confirmed town as a grand scum gambit. Amazing. Where is the scum equity in three people all doing that?

Ulti, I think you're Town, but we are not killing Tidus today. You have played with him before. He cannot resist slipping as either alignment, and an abysmal reads list will not make me want to lynch someone who will probably confirm themselves within another two days, especially with fifteen minutes to go.

Kirby321 posted...

See, Red is giving me the same vibes as in Sir Chris Mafia, where I was 90% sure he was scum until my role told me that he was actually not scum. Day 1 Red just naturally pings scum, I guess?

Ugh, I'm feeling the same way I did whenever I pushed against Chris's lynch targets from last game. My head says, "Vote for Red. Lea and Han clearly see something that you don't, and if Plum is telling the truth, you just lost a valuable role." But my gut says, "Plum is lying. His behavior has been all over the place, and Hider alongside Invisible seems like overkill in this setup."

Has IGCD posted recently? He said that he feels like the attacks on Plum have been cyclical, where one person's attack on Plum led to another person justifying it with their own attack. I asked him if Plum flips town, who would be the most likely scum out of the people involved in those attacks on him.

My immediate thought after reading back is... Ulti. I liked Ulti's posts because he made good arguments against Plum, I felt. But I feel like (especially in last game) town usually gets mislynched not because they played poorly, but because someone else was controlling the narrative. And I feel like that would be fitting for Ulti if Plum flips town.

So... screw it. I'm going with my gut

Okay, I was gonna rail on Kirby for his lack of analysis a bit more but I actually really like this post!

...which in turn is making me paranoid that I am horribly wrong on Plum and Kirby's covering for Red aaaa

I am surprised people are coming on Plum at this stage and although I feel like Plum is more likely to be scum this post has me second-guessing and I can't put my finger on why

Kirby321 posted...

I very much want to vote Plum, but I'm naturally hesitant given how wrong I was about Tidus in Sir Chris Mafia and Ulti in Star Wars/Pokmon Mafia, both of who were uncountered town power that I was convinced were scum until they flipped. I'm wary about that.

Otherwise, if we're going by roles, lynching the Invisible is the safer option if we don't believe Plum and Lea are both telling the truth. Problem with that is 1) nobody seems to agree with me, so it's probably a stupid idea and 2) I'm not particularly keen on either Plum or Lea being town, but I'd more willing to believe Lea's claim than Plum's, so even I don't think the "safe" option is the smartest choice here.

The easy answer is to say Red, but again, I'd like to hear something back from him. I don't think anything about him struck me as particularly odd, but everyone else seems to think he's the second-best choice.

MZero I am fairly confident is Town. Tidus and Ben both seem to be playing as normal, too. IGCD is acting like his usual town-self I feel, and nothing about your posts have pinged me with weird logic like they did last game, Sheep. chang and Death also didn't seem out of the ordinary, either.

Out of principle, I refuse to lynch BCT or DYL today since it seems they haven't played in a while.

I guess I don't really have any solid reads on Han, Ulti, or Sbell. I mean, I seem to have a tendency to think Han is scum, but I think it's just his posting style that gives me those false flags. Ulti I don't think I remember much from him other than the whole Ben/Lea thing. And Sbell... I don't remember anything from him at all, really.

Hmm... Perhaps I should do a quick review of the day. Really, I'd like to vote for Plum, but I'd also hate to get burned again for lynching the uncountered, claimed power.

I'm gonna try to address a few things here, although I've realised with little time left I should keep this brief. First, why the wariness of Lea? You like her claim, I think she's had a clean game so far (though you may disagree), and as I've mentioned a few times before, this is leagues above last game for her.

Second, are less active players entirely off the table for you? Is this a consistent thing for your D1s, or is there something particular about this game? I'm curious, because I don't think there's many great options besides the less active players, especially if Plum is off the table.

Third... I like your walls, generally, but this one feels lacking. I know you're a very analytical person, and it's missing that streak which I would expect after two games of watching you as town. I know this is a difficult situation, but this is wishy-washy stuff and lacking for this point in the day. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt with a busy weekend for now, but I am concerned and we may be having words tomorrow. If I die tonight (which I think is fairly likely), I would ask that y'all take a look at Kirby. Ben shall be my messenger from beyond the grave.

PunishedBen posted...

Sure, I'll let Death be your favourite as long as I'm your favorite

Everyone in B8 Mafia is my favourite! But especially you and Death.

masterplum posted...

My only concern with Red is I don't remember him contributing much as town last game.

Disagree. He had low activity but a few very good posts in D1 both the last two games. I had him as basically confirmed town by the time I joined D2 in Kingmaker. This does not feel like the same Red.

I have the feeling Kirby is putting up a gigantic wall and Death will have a lot more to ISO shortly

htaeD posted...

I confess I cannot read you very well because you always put up anti-me front which throws me off

You're my secretly my favourite, don't worry. I like having someone who's actually awake at the same times as me and I'm always sad once you die and leave me with only MZero for company. I just find it much easier to read someone who I can actively interact with and it's fun to poke you hehe

Those votals look messy. I still like the Plum lynch, for what it's worth!

I would very much like to know where you think your vote will end up, Kirby.

htaeD posted...

Its all dependent on what Plum flips as. But if Plum is town it just looks bad to leave before you have a reason to unvote a role that scum would want dead.
Its simplistic logic perhaps. But that was my first reaction.

Death's first reaction being the complete opposite to mine is his scumtell, by the way. I think Plum is scum but a Death train would also be acceptable if nobody wants to risk it.

htaeD posted...

I dont think I mentioned much out loud besides the fact that I dont think Lea is scum, and that's not really a read so much as a theory based on her claim.

I do believe Han has a very good chance of being town though
He's taken charge, is vocal and doesn't seem as selfish as he did in the Kingmaker mafia.

I also liked BCT's contributions, Mzero posting at all, and IGCD for being so outspoken.
And Tidus is just adorable.
Leaning town on them too.

Agreed on most of these, although I find the BCT choice a bit odd.

I'm really not sure how to feel about Han, because I honestly kinda suck at reading him. I think I picked up from Kingmaker while observing that he's a little reluctant to bus until necessary? Which makes me doubt that Plum/Han is Scum/Scum.

Obellisk posted...

feel like a dick, I'm sorry guys.

I am 100% invested here, please forgive me lack of a day 1. in sheep I trust, (for now).

lynch well sweet town. I'll see you day 2.

We could always use an extra vote! The lynch is very undecided rn but if you see this a vote for Plum, Death or Red would be well placed imo

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Lea is Town, in case anyone was wondering

Man, I kinda wish Death had answered that because that's a bit tamer than I was hoping. I'm treading into wifom territory here, but Chang, in my experience (and the Chart's!), kinda just doesn't give a fuck what he looks like D1. He didn't piss about and just said what he wanted to say despite it looking dodgy. That lines up well with what I expect of him as Town.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Sheep linking himself to Ulti rather hard here.

Han, I'm gonna be real, I don't see what you see with Ulti. I'll listen to any arguments, but I've not seen anything on him so far. Unless something changes we aren't touching that lynch today.

htaeD posted...

I landed on Red Ulti and you because you were three were talked about and because I didnt really have a strong read on any of you. (Probably on you the most, but that's largely a collection of minor oddities, less a strong overall picture)

Remind me of your strong reads so far?

Also, I'd love it if someone could point out what makes Chang's sign-off bad, because it actually made me feel kinda good about him. That'd include either Death or Han, although I think I'm more interested in Death's angle.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Oops, guess the only option we're left with is Plum. Tragic.

I'm pretty sure Ulti's Town. Did a quick ISO of him.

I like the start of his game, as I mentioned earlier. The MZero vote was something I was strongly considering opening with and it's neat he reflected that, and I think he unvoted at a reasonable point too, because MZero felt like obvtown pretty much as soon as I caught up to the game. I think his Lea/Ben thinking is very accurate too, and mirrored my thoughts at the time. I think pretty much every post he made was reasonable and he's been fairly active, none of the "see you D2" crap. Nothing overly defensive, incredibly aggressive, or slimy-feeling, at least not that I noticed. It's rare I townlean Ulti at all D1, but I'm left with a pretty solid townread on him.

htaeD posted...

Yeah not exactly a fan of Changmas' signoff either..
Though I dont trust Plum entirely, so if he is scum that would make Chang look better instead.

Still I guess it would be better to let Plum prove himself.

That leaves me in the dark though. Time to see what all this Ulti/Red/Sheep talk is about.

oh dear

This is a Bad Post, Death.

Do you still think Plum is Scum?

And, perhaps less vitally but more curiously, how did you land on "Ulti/Red/Sheep" talk?

Tidus is also voting Ben, by the way

HanOfTheNekos posted...

People, look at this post with me.

Does it look like Kirby suggesting not to look at Plum while also saying he'll go with it?
Does it feel off to the rest of you?

I'm not sure I see what you do. There's a bit of hedging to it for sure, but I don't think Kirby has made a habit of being incredibly assured in his reads since joining us.

also Plum's response just makes me wanna kill Red tbh

I am getting flashbacks to both myself claiming a scanner after a horrible Scum game D1 last game and Tidus claiming a scanner after a horrible Town game D2 the game before.

masterplum posted...

I don't see the issue? I can't hide behind her and we know nothing about the setup.

As Lea said, they seem like odd roles to have together? Both fill a niche of being roles that hamper scum's targeting ability, and that's without any dedicated protection.

I kinda disagree about it being weird to wait so long before claiming? That's a pretty powerful role and I'd be hesitant to claim it too.

I feel like Lea is getting Tidus whiplash but I do feel kinda okay with him, even if I think the Ben vote is nonsensical at best.

I too would love to know why exactly Plum didn't take more issue with Lea's claim, considering his own. Especially if it's the version of Hider that can't be targeted at night.

I always forget what Hider does tbh. Isn't it basically Cop that dies if it targets scum/someone who dies, or was that specifically Red's version last game?

Heracross
Haunter

##Unvote
##Vote: Plum

See you day 2.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

That is such base logic and I like it.

I was kinda hoping he'd say no and look for something else, because that was pretty much a nothing post from Death. I do kinda dig the confidence though.

Although the subsequent reads post kinda makes me want to batter my face into something. I think my favourite part is the neutral area where the entire game resides as well as Han and Kirby but separately from the other ten people in the exact same zone for whatever reason.

Possibly the first thing I have agreed with Plum on this game is that Red's Kirby vote is bad!

IfGodCouldDie posted...

I'm still not convinced that Plum is scum. I don't really agree with the attacks on them because I don't necessarily belive his behaviour is scum behaviour, it comes across more as just anti-town behaviour, and the attacks all feel cyclical on him. Its like people are using each others attacks to feel justified in their own attacks and then people are using the other attacks to justify their own attacks.

Why exactly is it Town anti-town behaviour, and not Scum anti-town behaviour?

Also, who're you interested in targeting today if not Plum?

TidusOfTheX posted...

To answer your question sheep, Death was making posts like this where it shows that he is making an effort to find scum.

Is this, to you, the best post to illustrate that Death is making an effort to scumhunt this game?

Dark Young Link posted...

That is true, but part of me is wondering if it isn't scumBen trying to get scumPlum out of trouble, without it looking like he's trying to do so, if that makes any sense. I guess it's just the confidence of the statement "The simple answer is Plum is actually scum and things are simple.", followed up a less certain sounding post.

That kinda lines up with the Scum Ben from last game, but it really doesn't feel like that? Idk how to explain but it feels like he's truly trying to come to the right conclusion and prodding Plum to do that.

Also I agree with the conclusion that Ulti is probably just Town. I struggle to read the dude a lot of the time but my gut is shouting he's Town with a lot of posts, and he feels way more active than his typical D1, which I take as a good sign. Unfortunately I vaguely remember Ulti being good as Scum, so I'm still a bit on edge, but I feel great about him for D1.

Obellisk posted...

can you give me 3 sentences behind the plum lead and Dyl follow up in votals?

Plum got pressured by Han and crumbled, didn't address anything asked of him, didn't offer any alternative or solid attacks on players, and has generally been impotent. I moved onto DYL to get him active and stop the day stagnating, and said Plum was pretty obviously scum and should be lynched today in the same post. Plum then leapt on me in a very strange post saying that I should be voting him if I want to lynch him, before quickly following it up by complaining about how bad my vote on him was.

I recommend reading those posts yourself today, even if you don't have time for the whole game right now (#330-350).

Also I missed Red saying the unfun Ben thing oops

Oh also I do have my vote on DYL, Sultan.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Please don't vote for and dog pile on DYL. Give new/returning players a chance to breathe and get the rust off.

I kinda agree, but I'll give those votes credit for getting him to contribute more! I think the pressure being mostly on Plum right now is enough space for him.

Dark Young Link posted...

Speaking of Tidus, I kind of like his initial reaction to Lea and other people's reaction to it. He seems a lot more wary about the whole situation. Also said if Ben flips scum, that Lea is also scum.

Do you agree with that assessment?

Dark Young Link posted...

I'm not sold on him personally, but I can't confidently say he's scum at this point either. What's giving me pause is posts #294 and #296. Says plum is scum in the former, but in the latter he reaches out to plum?

What exactly about reaching out to him is giving you pause? If Ben is Town, he doesn't know Plum's alignment. I think there's more utility in trying to give players outs as Town, rather than just screaming "SCUM! SCUM!", because everyone is gonna have a bad Town game sometimes.

Did you ever explain your Ben vote and would you care to, Red?

MZero posted...

It might be that he voted you for it and forgot about it 10 minutes later

Yeah that might be it

I felt it when reading initially, though, before he literally forgot his own point. It guess it's that it seems like false outrage to try and seem more genuine, but that doesn't feel entirely right either?

masterplum posted...

I'm a pragmatist, the Mzero lynch wasn't going anywhere. You yourself bring up the idea that votes were more than just lynching someone. Do you expect me to die clutching my pearls as the only vote on Mzero?

No, I expect you to actually make a damn case on the person you're voting. If you're Town, you're wasting your breath only defending yourself rather than finding Scum. You've still not answered what Han asked yesterday: who's scum, Plum? And why?

masterplum posted...

I think its funny that you accuse me of not contributing to the game. What have you done?

I'd like to hear your take on what you think I've done, actually.

Here's my thought process on you: you're put under a little bit of pressure from Han and start flailing under it, nobody's really townread you or even offered a case for you being Town so far (including yourself), and you just straight up haven't offered anything all game. It's all been snarky one-liners and contradictions and pretending to be oblivious to how you've played so far. You are doing nothing to change this and your play has no Town explanation, to me.

Claim, please, Plum.

htaeD posted...

I will grant it at least that I dont know what it would do to vote DYL at this point if you already said you didnt want to lynch him today, Sheep.

Meh, I think any votes at all are pressuring (especially for someone who hasn't played in a while), and DYL needs some pressure on him. There's always going to be some uncertainty with who's gonna be lynched, and Plum could change some minds, though that seems unlikely. It also gets reactions from other people! In this situation, Plum bit, although something about his response feels kinda forced? I can't quite put my finger on it.

masterplum posted...

Sheep's votes on me

masterplum posted...

So let me get this straight, you think Im so scummy if I dont get lynched something has gone wrong.

And you dont vote me?

Sultan has hosted before, right? He knows jester is a banned role?

I love that it took not voting Plum to get him to respond with some fire. And then he calls the votes that are on him lazy...

Plum, would me voting you twelve hours before deadline mean that you get lynched, where you wouldn't otherwise? After however many years you've been playing Mafia, do you genuinely think votes are "I want to lynch this person" and nothing more? I also find it fascinating that you chose to vote me over this, rather than MZero. Who you were voting before, and never actually made a case on, even after he voiced similar thoughts to myself!

Let me put it this way: you've done so little to convince anyone that you're town that it's a waste of time voting for you. You were asked a bunch of questions and given ways to contribute to the game and have straight-up ignored them. If I vote someone else, I'll hopefully at least learn something.

TidusOfTheX posted...

It looks like Death is actually trying to hunt for scum, but I remember someone in an earlier game saying that death could act anti-town as town, town lean on Death though because it looks hard to fake scum hunting so well as scum.

It could work depending on who the town actually is, but there will almost always be some who go against that kind of post. It simply has to work on enough people so that it significantly reduces his chance of getting lynched.

ScumBen's goal here could be convincing others that Lea's claim is real(if so, amazing teamwork here). It backfires if he is lynched though, hence the first part of his post

Am I misremembering, or is this oddly thoughtful for Tidus?

What parts of Death's play feel like he's actually scumhunting?

Plum's posts in the timeframe I was away have been absolutely horrific. They're mostly little one-liners that have no intent behind them and no bite either. As others have said, you can consider my vote to be there too, and if Plum's not dead today something has gone horribly wrong. The guy's so scummy that he got bloody Death to vote within the first half of the day.

If you're still around, Plum, I'm sure you could manage a little read-through and analysis of one player you think is scum? Y'know, the one you got asked to do in thirty minutes half a day ago?

All that said... I like the DYL vote from MZero. I've been thinking about some options to spice up the day, and he's a good pick. Again, stopping at one scum shows a lack of ambition! I liked BCT's few posts after the first one and Kirby has proven himself enough that I'm happy to give him time. I think Tidus and DYL are both fairly interesting routes to go down with our remaining time if we don't want to sleepwalk towards EoD. Red's a good option too, this is slim pickings for a D1 even for him. Regardless, let's start here.

##Vote: DYL

Thoughts on the Plum lynch so far, DYL? I'm also curious, which of the four others I mentioned in the previous paragraph (BCT, Kirby, Tidus and Red) do you think we would be best off lynching as of now (yourself is also an option, pending your response)?

Gyarados
Decidueye

htaeD posted...

I think Sbell would have to disagree with you there.

okay actually I reskimmed the most recent messages and I take back not being big on Death this is a good post

changmas posted...

Sheep, how much does this explanation of Ben's behavior project your own? Considering that you're in the same situation that Ben is, and by my eye your play already reads quite differently. Also there's really no one stopping you from doing that whether Chris is here or not. I'd consider rallying on that when we get closer to the deadline.

I had to do a few reads of this post because my brain is mush tonight. Are we talking about just murdering anyone who goes after Ben here? because I'm confused but down. Might be a fun little adventure on the side, and I don't want to waste this precious D1 on killing Plum alone! Stopping at one scum shows a lack of ambition, imo.

Seriously though, Plum probably is just scum. I think offering up that little defence is kinda weird regardless of alignment, but dude's just floundered the second he came under pressure. I just don't see this little fight coming from him as Town.

PunishedBen posted...

Does anyone feel anything negative about anyone on this list?

I'm not big on Death so far but otherwise, yeah, checks out.

Oh hey I was just about to post something asking Tidus questions for when he arrived!

Thoughts on Death, Tidus?

Regarding Ben, do you think that post alone is going to actually encourage people to avoid lynching him (or Lea)? What do you think ScumBen gains from it if Lea is also scum, besides overtly drawing attention to a connection between them?

masterplum posted...

Its just a dumb ask. There are 180 posts.

You are a capable player and this is probably the most content-dense D1 I've seen in a long time. MZero, your current vote, has a lot of posts to analyse today so far, probably more compared to a typical full phase. You still barking up that tree?

masterplum posted...

I don't think any of you have tied any of you together.

I am still processing Lea's claim

The claim was the first thing in the game.

Is everything okay, Plum?