LogFAQs > #945867133

Esrac posted...

First, I can tell you now, I'm not a feminist, so we probably won't agree in the end about the suggested toxicity.

But you do remind me of a point I've tried to bring up when I was more inclined to argue on the internet about feminism and gender activism.

Basically, they're ready to rattle off traits of masculinity that they think are toxic, but they are a lot less inclined to list any that they think are positive. I suspect because they don't want to suggest that those traits are masculine and, by extension, more intrinsic with men than women.

The counter argument to that might be that holding specific personality traits up as a matter of gender is the harmful bit regardless of whether it's a good trait or a bad one, however much that might be often or even generally the case. In other words, expecting a person to behave a certain way because of their gender is the damaging bit.

I mean, flip it on its head. If someone tells you it's not right for a man to be creative, or beautiful, or good at cooking, or a good communicator, would that seem fair enough? These can all be understood to be positive traits that women generally possess by proxy of being feminine.

Ok that's all a bit silly and pedestrian. What if someone says that being a good parent is a feminine trait? Or that not being a suspicious person around children is a feminine trait? Like when you get the kids and Karen and Sally say "oh, babysitting tonight?" because haha, men don't make for stable parental figures. Not so silly and pedestrian an assumption anymore.

If the argument is that anything perceived as a toxic masculine trait is really just a toxic trait that men happen to have (and women can easily have just as much), I agree. But I think the point is that this is partly fuelled by a societal expectation on how to behave.

Men don't drop dead from depression or health problems because they are physically incapable of asking for help as men, or that we are just so damn inherently manly that the idea of never going to the doctor is hardwired into our DNA. They drop dead from these things because everyone in their life has always told them that they're not supposed to ask for help.

And on the other hand, if you pick out a positive masculine trait like leadership to say "but here's why it's good to be a man", feminists would argue that all you're really saying is that we shouldn't automatically dismiss women as leadership material on their gender alone, if all this really is is an arbitrary social expectation.

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CE's Resident Scotsman.
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