Current Events > Toxic Masculinity is real

(+) Yeah! (+)

anyone who says otherwise just hasn't experienced it.
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I really don't see how any man could have not experienced it, but I tend to notice that people who are sceptical of toxic masculinity as a concept usually are so because they expect the argument to be a criticism of anything masculine from the perspective of women who don't get men's issues. In other words, they see it as an attack on their identity and an erosion of what it is to be a man, so this puts them on the defensive immediately. "Are they saying masculinity is toxic now? Those feminists sure are crazy".

For guys like this they just need to watch some Bill Burr and reflect on how bits like "I've pushed down every impulse to pet a puppy for so many years that I'm going to have a heart attack any day now" is not a glowing review about what it sometimes is to be a man.

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Yes it is definitely real. Of course the dumbass mgtows and mras just blame women for what's wrong with them instead of fixing that problem.

DarthVader95 posted...

Yes it is definitely real. Of course the dumbass mgtows and mras just blame women for what's wrong with them instead of fixing that problem.

I think it's fair to point out that women are not blameless and the point about toxic masculinity is that it is societal expectations of gender roles which is the problem. Like, how often has your mother or your girlfriend or even just some dumb bitch on TV said something that made you feel like your feelings weren't valid or expressable "as a real man".

But yes, guys need to stop getting defensive about it and start reflecting inwardly.

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We literally watched toxic masculinity kill a CEman a few years ago.

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pinky0926 posted...

I think it's fair to point out that women are not blameless and the point about toxic masculinity is that it is societal expectations of gender roles which is the problem. Like, how often has your mother or your girlfriend or even just some dumb bitch on TV said something that made you feel like your feelings weren't valid or expressable "as a real man".

But yes, guys need to stop getting defensive about it and start reflecting inwardly.

We live in a patriarchy so the one that needs to fix the problem of toxic masculinity is men not women.

DarthVader95 posted...

We live in a patriarchy so the one that needs to fix the problem of toxic masculinity is men not women.

That is not how anything works

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pinky0926 posted...

That is not how anything works

Yes it is.

DarthVader95 posted...

Yes it is.

So I understand your argument, we should have men unilaterally decide and regulate how to restructure societal expectations of gender roles?

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DarthVader95 posted...

We live in a patriarchy so the one that needs to fix the problem of toxic masculinity is men not women.

So women contributing to toxic masculinity get a free pass or what?

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ChocoboMogALT posted...

So women contributing to toxic masculinity get a free pass or what?

Again we live in a patriarchy, men are the ones that decided the gender roles.

pinky0926 posted...

So I understand your argument, we should have men unilaterally decide and regulate how to restructure societal expectations of gender roles?

Got'em!

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DarthVader95 posted...

Again we live in a patriarchy, men are the ones that decided the gender roles.

So to ask the previous question again, should men continue to decide the gender roles and in this case moderate womens' behaviour moving forward?

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Beveren_Rabbit posted...

anyone who says otherwise just hasn't experienced it.

It exists but it's not what Twitter thinks it is, it's basically abuse and domestic violence, usually with drugs and alcohol involved, it is not saying a few insults on the internet or not liking a woke film for example.
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DarthVader95 posted...

Again we live in a patriarchy, men are the ones that decided the gender roles.

That's just sexist.

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pinky0926 posted...

So to ask the previous question again, should men continue to decide the gender roles and in this case moderate womens' behaviour moving forward?

lol is this supposed to be a bad thing?
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pinky0926 posted...

So to ask the previous question again, should men continue to decide the gender roles and in this case moderate womens' behaviour moving forward?

We should at least be ok with feminism and dismantling the patriarchy to start with.

it is any anyone who thinks feminism at it's core doesn't help men too is flat out wrong

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DarthVader95 posted...

We should at least be ok with feminism and dismantling the patriarchy to start with.

Right, but in doing so maybe it's not gonna be alright for women to tell me what a "real man" is anymore and I shouldn't have to tell them that. Feminist theory should cover that bit nicely. Personal responsibility and all that.


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DarthVader95 posted...

We should at least be ok with feminism and dismantling the patriarchy to start with.

Cool. And a woman who smacks her kid telling him, "Real men don't cry."? She gets a free pass?

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nfearurspecimn posted...

it is any anyone who thinks feminism at it's core doesn't help men too is flat out wrong

It would help if they knew anything about men in the first place

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Dathrowed1 posted...

It would help if they knew anything about men in the first place

The misogyny begins.

ChocoboMogALT posted...

That's just sexist.

strong incel energy from this post

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Dathrowed1 posted...

It would help if they knew anything about men in the first place

oh be quiet. people understand men and their needs

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nfearurspecimn posted...

oh be quiet. people understand men and their needs

Then there'd be no such thing as "man spreading"

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Dathrowed1 posted...

Then there'd be no such thing as "man spreading"

You still live in 2016?

nfearurspecimn posted...

it is any anyone who thinks feminism at it's core doesn't help men too is flat out wrong

I've had some interesting chats on this subject and I think it's also fair to say that while feminism overall helps men, it has to be said that feminism will always progress women's issues first and foremost, and perhaps men's issues will never be a core component of what it's about. To put it another way, it's not up to feminism to "fix" men's issues anymore than it is up to a breast cancer charity to help testicular cancer.

What's still lacking is a central, non-toxic men's movement that progresses men's issues in a way that is not harmful. Such things exist but they're not anywhere near as big, and frankly they seem to struggle with that classic MGTOW trap.

For a good one though I think the /r/menslib subreddit is quite good. Like, it's ok to talk about your parental custody rights and how they disproportionately harm men, and it's alright to acknowledge that it isn't feminism's job to fix that as a priority however much we like to think it eventually will.

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https://i.imgur.com/o5c6TIN.gif

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Lorthremar posted...

strong incel energy from this post

One semester away from a BA in sociology. I just don't think taking away agency from women is very egalitarian. All genders contribute to toxic masculinity, it's a cultural issue not a gender issue.

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pinky0926 posted...

I really don't see how any man could have not experienced it, but I tend to notice that people who are sceptical of toxic masculinity as a concept usually are so because they expect the argument to be a criticism of anything masculine from the perspective of women who don't get men's issues. In other words, they see it as an attack on their identity and an erosion of what it is to be a man, so this puts them on the defensive immediately. "Are they saying masculinity is toxic now? Those feminists sure are crazy".

For guys like this they just need to watch some Bill Burr and reflect on how bits like "I've pushed down every impulse to pet a puppy for so many years that I'm going to have a heart attack any day now" is not a glowing review about what it sometimes is to be a man.

Now, not to get all red pilled here, but to be fair, it does seem like a lot of the vocal people who use terminology like toxic masculinity aren't exactly too keen on the concept of masculinity in general. Like, it seems a lot less common for them to talk about masculinity in positive terms at all.

Now. there probably are some who will make a distinction and praise masculine traits, but its easier to find the remarks about "toxic masculinity" adjacent to those about "masculinity so fragile", etc.

Esrac posted...

Now, not to get all red pilled here, but to be fair, it does seem like a lot of the vocal people who use terminology like toxic masculinity aren't exactly too keen on the concept of masculinity in general. Like, it seems a lot less common for them to talk about masculinity in positive terms at all.

Exactly, they don't have a strong understanding of masculinity

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Esrac posted...

Now, not to get all red pilled here, but to be fair, it does seem like a lot of the vocal people who use terminology like toxic masculinity aren't exactly too keen on the concept of masculinity in general. Like, it seems a lot less common for them to talk about masculinity in positive terms at all.

Now. there probably are some who will make a distinction and praise masculine traits, but its easier to find the remarks about "toxic masculinity" adjacent to those about "masculinity so fragile", etc.

I suppose there's definitely people who get carried away, yes.

When I read those comments I kind of think it comes from the perspective of a jaded person who's had to bear the brunt of harmful masculinity for so long that they just don't have an overall good opinion about it.

It's a troubling conversation for me once you try to distil it because what exactly are essential and good masculine traits anyway? Like, being assertive? Having confidence, or courage, or being a leader? Are we saying that these are exclusively masculine traits, isn't that a good trait for anybody, etc.

These conversations tend to dissolve into a "huh, whaddaya know. Gendering traits as positive or negative is toxic", and that's kind of the point.

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Dathrowed1 posted...

Exactly, they don't have a strong understanding of masculinity

Well, what I'm saying is that people less interested in being productive and more interested in shitting on men and masculinity as a form of antagonistic activism on the internet, and in shittier feminist circles, because they have an axe to grind will use the same terminology to be deliberately disparaging.

pinky0926 posted...

I suppose there's definitely people who get carried away, yes.

When I read those comments I kind of think it comes from the perspective of a jaded person who's had to bear the brunt of harmful masculinity for so long that they just don't have an overall good opinion about it.

It's a troubling conversation for me once you try to distil it because what exactly are essential and good masculine traits anyway? Like, being assertive? Having confidence, or courage? Are we saying that these are exclusively masculine traits, isn't that a good trait for anybody, etc.

These conversations tend to dissolve into a "huh, whaddaya know. Gendering traits as positive or negative is toxic", and that's kind of the point.

Good post. Funnily enough, when women have these traits you see a lot of misogynists saying that women are trying to be like men but I thought feminists hated masculinity?

pinky0926 posted...

I suppose there's definitely people who get carried away, yes.

When I read those comments I kind of think it comes from the perspective of a jaded person who's had to bear the brunt of harmful masculinity for so long that they just don't have an overall good opinion about it.

It's a troubling conversation for me once you try to distil it because what exactly are essential and good masculine traits anyway? Like, being assertive? Having confidence, or courage, or being a leader? Are we saying that these are exclusively masculine traits, isn't that a good trait for anybody, etc.

These conversations tend to dissolve into a "huh, whaddaya know. Gendering traits as positive or negative is toxic", and that's kind of the point.

First, I can tell you now, I'm not a feminist, so we probably won't agree in the end about the suggested toxicity.

But you do remind me of a point I've tried to bring up when I was more inclined to argue on the internet about feminism and gender activism.

Basically, they're ready to rattle off traits of masculinity that they think are toxic, but they are a lot less inclined to list any that they think are positive. I suspect because they don't want to suggest that those traits are masculine and, by extension, more intrinsic with men than women.

The problem is more the initial reasoning behind putting forth the specific terminology than whether it exists. It seeks to make a nice little "this is the problem with society" buzzword that can be used in article after article. I know people dislike the "but, but, but what about women?!" argument, but the fact that it is so lopsidedly discussed is an actual problem with the framework of the whole thing. I think it's completely possible to have a nuanced discussion on the topic, but much of the groundwork is loaded bunk that pollutes an otherwise important topic.

Toxic Masculinity is very much something that women make contributions to. There are also harmful gender roles forced onto women that men play a key part in. Women can also harm women in enforcing gender roles.

Toxic masculinity is just a specific part of gender roles being forced upon people. Not all are bad, but toxic masculinity definitely is.

I've always felt that toxic masculinity as a term has always been rather problematic (I hate this word) due to it implying a greater need to critique men.

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Buzzwords! Hey, i know that one!

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TommyG663513 posted...

Toxic Masculinity is very much something that women make contributions to. There are also harmful gender roles forced onto women that men play a key part in. Women can also harm women in enforcing gender roles.

Toxic masculinity is just a specific part of gender roles being forced upon people. Not all are bad, but toxic masculinity definitely is.

I've always felt that toxic masculinity as a term has always been rather problematic (I hate this word) due to it implying a greater need to critique men.

Agreed

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Esrac posted...

First, I can tell you now, I'm not a feminist, so we probably won't agree in the end about the suggested toxicity.

But you do remind me of a point I've tried to bring up when I was more inclined to argue on the internet about feminism and gender activism.

Basically, they're ready to rattle off traits of masculinity that they think are toxic, but they are a lot less inclined to list any that they think are positive. I suspect because they don't want to suggest that those traits are masculine and, by extension, more intrinsic with men than women.

The counter argument to that might be that holding specific personality traits up as a matter of gender is the harmful bit regardless of whether it's a good trait or a bad one, however much that might be often or even generally the case. In other words, expecting a person to behave a certain way because of their gender is the damaging bit.

I mean, flip it on its head. If someone tells you it's not right for a man to be creative, or beautiful, or good at cooking, or a good communicator, would that seem fair enough? These can all be understood to be positive traits that women generally possess by proxy of being feminine.

Ok that's all a bit silly and pedestrian. What if someone says that being a good parent is a feminine trait? Or that not being a suspicious person around children is a feminine trait? Like when you get the kids and Karen and Sally say "oh, babysitting tonight?" because haha, men don't make for stable parental figures. Not so silly and pedestrian an assumption anymore.

If the argument is that anything perceived as a toxic masculine trait is really just a toxic trait that men happen to have (and women can easily have just as much), I agree. But I think the point is that this is partly fuelled by a societal expectation on how to behave.

Men don't drop dead from depression or health problems because they are physically incapable of asking for help as men, or that we are just so damn inherently manly that the idea of never going to the doctor is hardwired into our DNA. They drop dead from these things because everyone in their life has always told them that they're not supposed to ask for help.

And on the other hand, if you pick out a positive masculine trait like leadership to say "but here's why it's good to be a man", feminists would argue that all you're really saying is that we shouldn't automatically dismiss women as leadership material on their gender alone, if all this really is is an arbitrary social expectation.

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It is.

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This topic is a big ol shit show :V

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Turbam posted...

This topic is a big ol shit show :V

Toxic topic!

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nemu posted...

The problem is more the initial reasoning behind putting forth the specific terminology than whether it exists. It seeks to make a nice little "this is the problem with society" buzzword that can be used in article after article. I know people dislike the "but, but, but what about women?!" argument, but the fact that it is so lopsidedly discussed is an actual problem with the framework of the whole thing. I think it's completely possible to have a nuanced discussion on the topic, but much of the groundwork is loaded bunk that pollutes an otherwise important topic.

The term was coined in the 80's by a male movement to promote male bonding and emotiveness instead of a competition for women and robotic rationality. It was almost in response to feminism at the time which had men feeling like they weren't a part of a larger group. It was later used in sociology to to describe cultural pressures to defend hegemonic masculinity.

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@TheLiarParadox posted...

We literally watched toxic masculinity kill a CEman a few years ago.

P2E?
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One_Day_Remains posted...

P2E?

Damn that feels like ages ago. Like I want to say five years, but I'm not sure.

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wHaT aBoUt ToXiC fEmInInItY

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It's important to take a deeper look at our society and understand that gender roles in general are at best pointless and at worst harmful. The idea that people should be expected to behave a certain way based on the gender they were assigned at birth inevitably leads to people feeling shame and self-loathing for not meeting expectations. Like how men crying in public is looked at as strange and abnormal, when it can be perfectly healthy and help build empathy.

So many forced gender roles in our society just hurt both men and women and create all kinds of unnecessary conflict.

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I feel like that was in 2017 for some reason. But also feel like it may have been before Trump was president so...time is weird.

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