Board 8 > Game of Thrones Offseason - The more immediate problem is that we're fucked.

(+) Yeah! (+)

Ugh are these topics always completely filled with people whining about everything? I don't suppose there could be a separate Game of Thrones topic that's actually for discussing the plot and not just complaining about how the CGI isn't photorealisitic enough
---

GANON1025 posted...

I wish there was a good audiobook series of them, it would fit into my schedule more.

What is wrong with the audiobooks?

I listened to some of them rather than rereading a couple years ago when the 5th book was coming out, and they seemed well done to me!
---

Of course, you lose out on the whole "wait who the hell is that guy - I need to flip to the back of the book to cross reference this again" thing, but you might be ok regardless since you've already got a good working knowledge of most of the big characters at least.
---

I know there's an audiobook series on audible. I don't know, I listened to the preview and was not really into it.
---

MariaTaylor posted...

especially because the larger themes of the main story in the book are almost the complete opposite of the themes and values that the showrunners have propped up.

What would say these are and how they've been reversed?
---

Johnbobb posted...

Ugh are these topics always completely filled with people whining about everything? I don't suppose there could be a separate Game of Thrones topic that's actually for discussing the plot and not just complaining about how the CGI isn't photorealisitic enough

that can happen here too

i'm not sure there's as much to discuss though, now that the show is so straightforward
---

Anagram posted...

MariaTaylor posted...

especially because the larger themes of the main story in the book are almost the complete opposite of the themes and values that the showrunners have propped up.

What would say these are and how they've been reversed?

violence reaps its own reward in the books. the show basically says that the answer is to be better at violence. arguably nowhere is this better encapsulated than in the status of the boltons in winterfell. but literally anything to do with brienne also qualifies.
---

SeabassDebeste posted...

i'm not sure there's as much to discuss though, now that the show is so straightforward

to elaborate on this

usually when people discuss the plot, they like to talk about logistics and what characters are likely to do, based on the pieces we're given and the rules they follow

a good example of discussion gone right is cersei blowing up the sept. all the pieces are there.

however, when the show seems to sacrifice the illusions of internal logic and breaks preestablished logistical rules, the main way of guessing at future events goes from "what is likely to happen based on circumstances?" to "what is likely to happen based on what b&e need to hit endgame?"

something like jaime/bronn's great amphibious escape, or the wight "plan," puts you into that mindset
---

that sums it up nicely. I'm too tired to really get into it right now.
---

SeabassDebeste posted...

something like jaime/bronn's great amphibious escape

I will admit, this was probably the thing that frustrated me most this season
---

This topic is just kind of sad, huh?

The audiobooks narrated by Roy Dotrice are the ones people are talking about, right? Maybe I'll try out the first one after all.
---

The audiobooks are okay, it's just that one old guy does every voice and he makes it sound like a tired Rankin/Bass cartoon. I'm hoping they eventually do a version with a bunch of different voice talents.

Seginustemple posted...

The audiobooks are okay, it's just that one old guy does every voice and he makes it sound like a tired Rankin/Bass cartoon. I'm hoping they eventually do a version with a bunch of different voice talents.

Yeah see, that's the impression I got from the preview I listened to.
---

And nothin against old guys, Iain Glen could voice every character the exact same way and it'd be great. I'd buy that recording in a heartbeat.

Johnbobb posted...

I will admit, this was probably the thing that frustrated me most this season

I think you would have enjoyed this topic much more - I know I did - before 7x05. The battle in 7x04 had (some) people thinking this season could be among the top. The one-two punch of 7x05 and 7x06 really let a *lot* of the wind out of those sails, I think.
---

It's crazy how high a point episodes 3 and 4 were for this season.
---

GANON1025 posted...

This topic is just kind of sad, huh?

The audiobooks narrated by Roy Dotrice are the ones people are talking about, right? Maybe I'll try out the first one after all.

Yep! Those are the ones I listened to and I thought they were very solid. I would imagine it would be hard for someone with no exposure to the series to keep up with so many names flying around, but if you watched the show you should be ok I think.
---

I listened to all of the audio books and thought they were pretty good. There's small gripes like how he changes characters voices between books, or how he pronounces Brienne as "breye-een" in one of them, but it didn't really bother me. I would definitely recommend them if you don't have time to read at home and have long commutes
---

Johnbobb posted...

I don't suppose there could be a separate Game of Thrones topic that's actually for discussing the plot

If there's something you wanna discuss then go ahead

I'm actually curious to know what part of the plot you think is worth discussing
---

SeabassDebeste posted...

Johnbobb posted...

I will admit, this was probably the thing that frustrated me most this season

I think you would have enjoyed this topic much more - I know I did - before 7x05. The battle in 7x04 had (some) people thinking this season could be among the top. The one-two punch of 7x05 and 7x06 really let a *lot* of the wind out of those sails, I think.

Yeah, I was in that boat. The first four episodes were flawed, yes, but I enjoyed them -- and it's been years since I've been able to say that about this show. Then everything plummeted.
---

Ep 1 was boring
2 was mediocre with only the ending being great
3 was fine

What the hell do people want
---

tbh everything before The Plan was fine

but it was still more boring/serious than S6, without the storyline quality and gravity to back it up
---

It was interesting to look at Dany losing her strength and the Lannisters stretching themselves thin to do it. Not everything was perfect, but through episode 4, this season was intriguing. We were still dealing with the "Dany was in the last scene of the episode" complaints as being the main type of problem people seemed to have.

Having Bronn/Jamie teleport underwater, having everything fall into Cersei's lap and everyone believing her, the plan up north to capture a wight and teleporting Gendry sending a teleporting raven to teleporting Dany (which is somehow the trigger for her to go north to help?) and having the Night King/WWers not strike the prone dragon with a bunch of enemies on it so they could kill a flying dragon, and (not my complaint) having the army of the dead arrive at the wall and only seem to use the dragon, with no other obvious plan.

Basically Dany showed up, got her allies killed off and made her opponents stronger. Whatever successes she has had has also had the effect of empowering her enemies. The set pieces are cool, much of the dialog is good, but they just seemed to want to have people talking about the cool stuff the next day and who cares if Gendry ran 50 miles in the snow one fine afternoon.

Like, remember a few weeks ago when we were saying "Wow Dany needs a legit military advisor"
---

I've been thinking about late entry villains for TV shows in regards to Euron Greyjoy. Some shows have done this particularly well with Boon in Justified and the Nazis in Breaking Bad. I've been trying to think of why those examples work so much better than what we are getting with Euron who has been good for the most part but could have been great. I think it really just boils down to the quality of the writing but I can't quite put my finger on why that's the case. I dunno, just some random thoughts.
---

To be fair I think those villains in BB were by far the worst part about the final season. Though I think the white walkers are a better comparison since they are just kinda there and unambiguously evil.
---

BrBa's final villains were less about the villains and more about Jessie and Walt imo. They broke so bad that they went outside of the law, so we're not dealing with well crafted characters that have to straddle the line of good and bad. They don't have a guy who runs a family chicken restaurant with some meth dungeon downtown. They just have a meth dungeon.

The White Walkers are a good analogy here because it doesn't really matter what their backstory is, they are just here to kill the living.
---

Yeah, I'm with everyone that BB's final villains didn't feel any more impressive than Euron to me - I actually really like Euron.

And in fairness, BB is a tighter show with far less sprawling a scope and far fewer "set pieces" of the story that need to be hit, by hook or by crook. As a result, almost any given element in BB will be of higher quality than GoT.

Back to GoT, I love Euron. But he's also a relative small fry. The only reason he and Cersei are ruling the roost is because Dany's focused on the Great War instead of the game of thrones. Could incinerate Euron's fleet and take King's Landing by storm if she needed to.
---

Plot discussion!

Do we think the White Walkers overrun Winterfell? Do they make it down to King's Landing, and if so, does that imply that they've taken Winterfell? I can envision no scenario where Sansa and Arya die in like Episode 3 out of 6 next season, and Winterfell seems like a fitting setting for the final battle. But it would also be a big disappointment if the Army of the Dead really never punished Cersei for disregarding it.

The most common and pretty much already accepted-as-canon theory for Cersei's death is Jaime killing her when she tries to blow up King's Landing with Wildfire. Previously it seemed like that might happen when Dany was going to take over the city, but maybe she'll be doing it against the Army of the Dead?
---

If the White Walkers overrun Winterfell and make it to KL, that implies they destroy everything between Winterfell and KL as well, which would at least be a good way to write out Robin and Edmure (remember them?). Then you could have Cersei refusing to let in refugees from the North and the remaining Jon/Dany army.

If they're stopped at Winterfell, then Cersei effectively becomes the final boss. I don't know if the writers are prepared for that, though. They've built the NK up pretty well as the ultimate bad guy, I don't think they'd have Cersei take that in the end.

I think the White Walkers will destroy Winterfell and make it down there. Destroying Winterfell early on would be a good move because it's one of the only two cities the audience really cares about. We also have to factor in Theon and Yara's subplot. I assume they'll ultimately kill Euron and turn the Iron Islands into allies against the White Walkers.
---

I hope Edmure does show up again, just because his acting was so good in that one scene last season.
---

I've read some compelling arguments that NK will be the end boss, and Cersei and King's Landing/the rest of Westeros like Saruman and the Shire. Apparently GRRM really liked that part from lotr.
---

Bospsychopaat posted...

I've read some compelling arguments that NK will be the end boss, and Cersei and King's Landing/the rest of Westeros like Saruman and the Shire. Apparently GRRM really liked that part from lotr.

I don't doubt that GRRM would do something like that, but I don't know if the show would.
---

Am I the only one that can't stand the White Walkers
I just can't care about them
Fighting against real people is so much better than zombies that can't talk or have a strategy

Golden Company hype is higher than whatever the White Walker going to pull off
So yes let's have Cersei as the final boss
---

Cersei would only be intimidating as a final boss if Dany dies or loses all of her dragons defeating the Night King.
---

I would bet the white walkers make it to or even take KL based on Dany's dream in the hall of the undying where IIRC she was in kings landing, seeming abandoned while it snows.

Prediction: Chekov's Mountain That Bides will have one glorious, final kill - one of Dany's remaining dragons.
---

Prediction-

Euron turns on Cersei, takes the Iron Throne either after they are married or maybe even right after returning with the Golden Company

Jaime is the one who ultimately kills the Night King. It's too predictable if it were Jon or Dany and the only other options are The Hound, Brienne and Jaime. I think it'll be Jaime because...

Arya will kill Jaime, steal his face, then kill Cersei. This is the only natural and fitting conclusion to her arc. If she does this before Jaime redeems himself it is a waste of Jaime's character which is why I believe he will kill the Night King.

I feel good about those theories. The person I can't really figure out how they get rid of is Euron. It has to end with Theon or Yara, likely Theon so he has some redemption. Part of me believing Euron overthrows Cersei or at least becomes king is because he needs to be in an enormous position of power for Theon's character arc to not be wasted. Whether Theon succeeds in defeating Euron I don't know, but it would be fitting if Theon and Yara saved the realm from political machinations while Snow and Dany save it from magical.
---

SeabassDebeste posted...

Do we think the White Walkers overrun Winterfell?

No because they see Arya standing at the door and go the other direction

Arya can't lose so this is the only option
---

It's winter.

It will fall.
---

y'all reminded me of another book quote that's ending shivers down my spine - the final words of ACOK

At the edge of the wolfswood, Bran turned in his basket for one last glimpse of the castle that had been his life. Wisps of smoke still rose into the grey sky, but no more than might have risen from Winterfell's chimneys on a cold autumn afternoon. Soot stains marked some of the arrow loops, and here and there a crack or a missing merlon could be seen in the curtain wall, but it seemed little enough from this distance. Beyond, the tops of the keeps and towers still stood as they had for hundreds of years, and it was hard to tell that the castle had been sacked and burned at all.

The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either.
---

Boy why would the Hound throw that rock?
---

OliviaTremor posted...

Arya will kill Jaime, steal his face, then kill Cersei.

I want to say mentioned this a few topics ago, but its something I've been saying for years. Its the only way to fulfill her list and prophecy.

Leafeon13N posted...

OliviaTremor posted...

Arya will kill Jaime, steal his face, then kill Cersei.

I want to say mentioned this a few topics ago, but its something I've been saying for years. Its the only way to fulfill her list and prophecy.

Arya kills the Mountain, steals his face, and then realizes that was pointless because he always wears a helmet anyway.
---

Arya killing Jaime would be the worst thing to happen in all of recorded fiction and I would denounce the show as garbage and would not even read a single character of the rest of the books if that happened.

No way.

NO FUCKING WAY does his arc end like that.
---

why would anything that happened on the show influence your decision to read or not read the books?
---

The only thing worth looking forward to is Cleganebowl. They better not screw that shit up. The choreography better be a thing of beauty.


Screw the rest of the predictable lovefest. D&D can't write tragic to save their lives. They will fulfill all the Jon/Dany/Tyrion fantasies people at places like the Burlington Bar have been creaming over for the past 7 seasons.
---

Leafeon13N posted...

I want to say mentioned this a few topics ago, but its something I've been saying for years. Its the only way to fulfill her list and prophecy.

arya's list isn't that important, in the show. the biggest name on it died at his own wedding without arya. oh, and she hasn't recited it in 4 years - in the show that makes it non canon. plus, the valonqar part of the prophecy literally didn't exist in the show.

ExThaNemesis posted...

Arya killing Jaime would be the worst thing to happen in all of recorded fiction and I would denounce the show as garbage and would not even read a single character of the rest of the books if that happened.

No way.

NO FUCKING WAY does his arc end like that.

nvm now i want this to happen. btw, as is you are alreary never going to read another character of the books. "lol"

Pokewars posted...

The only thing worth looking forward to is Cleganebowl. They better not screw that shit up. The choreography better be a thing of beauty.

Screw the rest of the predictable lovefest. D&D can't write tragic to save their lives. They will fulfill all the Jon/Dany/Tyrion fantasies people at places like the Burlington Bar have been creaming over for the past 7 seasons.

cleganebowl not happening was my least favorite part of that season finale. i'm so fucking mad.

also this particular salt is so delicious!
---

ExThaNemesis posted...

Arya killing Jaime would be the worst thing to happen in all of recorded fiction and I would denounce the show as garbage and would not even read a single character of the rest of the books if that happened.

That implies it needs to be worse than Littlefinger begging for mercy with tears in his eyes which is unlikely
---

OliviaTremor posted...

Part of me believing Euron overthrows Cersei or at least becomes king is because he needs to be in an enormous position of power for Theon's character arc to not be wasted.

I disagree. Theon's arc is on a lot more personal scale than many of the other characters

I think a fitting end for his arc would be him saving Yara, and then going to fight (and almost definitely die) alongside Jon as Yara works on taking back the kingdom.

Theon doesn't need to kill a King or anything that big; he just needs to overcome his PTSD to save his family imo
---

Maybe you're right about Theon. It is a super personal arc but I do think we'll see Euron as king before the show ends- perhaps Cersei marries him just to spite Jaime.

Also I don't get the hype for Cleganebowl anymore. The Mountain hasn't done anything really in quite a long time and is still doing the oath of silence he took, if you believe that. He went from being a super interesting character to... a zombie in the worst sense.
---