Current Events > So...what is the "politically correct" view on Israel v Palestine?

(+) Yeah! (+)

The "politically correct" view is to recognize Israel as the sovereign state that it is, like you would any other nation. The Arab Palestinians openly rejected any two-state solution in the past that required them to acknowledge Israel's right to existence, and they deliberately chose to engage in a campaign of terrorism as a way to solving the problem instead. The Palestinian people continually elect members of Hamas on the basis of these promises, so this is the mainstream view. This is why they cannot and have not simply integrated within Israel. The apartheid analogy above is typical ignorance of someone wanting to work backwards from the Palestinians being the victims, despite being the aggressors.

Israel takes a hard-line stance against terrorism, and it pretty much has to given the attitudes of the nations surrounding it. The only reason those other Arab countries haven't already wiped Israel off the map if because they can't -- thanks in part to U.S. support and Israel having the only competent military in that entire region.
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frozenshock posted...

Israel is like a tiny tiny little place where Jews live, surrounded by a super vast ocean filled with muslims swearing to wipe them out of existence.

The odds really do seem to be way out of balance. I think they deserve a little bit of slack.

this
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The Admiral posted...

The "politically correct" view is to recognize Israel as the sovereign state that it is, like you would any other nation. The Arab Palestinians openly rejected any two-state solution in the past that required them to acknowledge Israel's right to existence, and they deliberately chose to engage in a campaign of terrorism as a way to solving the problem instead. The Palestinian people continually elect members of Hamas on the basis of these promises, so this is the mainstream view. This is why they cannot and have not simply integrated within Israel. The apartheid analogy above is typical idiocy of someone wanting to work backwards from the Palestinians being the victims, despite being the aggressors.

Israel takes a hard-line stance against terrorism, and pretty much has to given the attitudes of the nations surrounding it. The only reason those other Aran countries haven't already wiped Israel off the map if because they can't -- thanks in part to U.S. support and Israel having the only competent military in that entire region.

also this
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Funkdamental posted...

tote_all posted...

Funkdamental posted...

I don't know about politically correct, but the correct view is not seeing it as a left vs. right issue.

Who the fuck thinks the middle east is a left vs. right issue?

Plenty of fucking idiots who think there's a big checklist of issues they need to tick in order to self-identify as conservative/right or liberal/left, and that the position they take on the Israel/Palestine question is one of the criteria that defines where they stand on the political spectrum.

israel is a fascist state. it's far right

where loyalties lie is not necessarily a left-right issue, but it is a right-wrong issue, and support for the wrong side largely comes from the right
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SpiritSephiroth posted...

Tbh wouldn't you be pissed if someone waltzed into your land, bulldozed your home and took it for themselves?

I guess we should all GTFO of America and give the land back to the natives, then?
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averagejoel posted...

Funkdamental posted...

tote_all posted...

Funkdamental posted...

I don't know about politically correct, but the correct view is not seeing it as a left vs. right issue.

Who the fuck thinks the middle east is a left vs. right issue?

Plenty of fucking idiots who think there's a big checklist of issues they need to tick in order to self-identify as conservative/right or liberal/left, and that the position they take on the Israel/Palestine question is one of the criteria that defines where they stand on the political spectrum.

israel is a fascist state. it's far right

where loyalties lie is not necessarily a left-right issue, but it is a right-wrong issue, and support for the wrong side largely comes from the right

Just so you know how seriously to take joel in this topic, he said yesterday that Israel was anti-Semitic... in large part because he didnt know the proper definition of the word.
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Blue_Dream87 posted...

If you care about human rights: both sides are fucked up but Israel is a bit more, because western powers just gave them someone else's land.

No... They didn't. It was their land that they were pushed out of in the first place.
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KazumaKiryu posted...

Blue_Dream87 posted...

If you care about human rights: both sides are fucked up but Israel is a bit more, because western powers just gave them someone else's land.

No... They didn't. It was their land that they were pushed out of in the first place.

The Muslims living there are the descendants of the Jews living there two thousands ago. They got religious traditions that are clearly inspired by Jewish traditions that no other Muslims in the rest of the world got.
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Tropicalwood posted...

Funkdamental posted...

Tropicalwood posted...

Funkdamental posted...

CarlGrimes posted...

Here come all the "progressive liberals" to attack Israel.

And here come all the "conservatives" to attack anyone who dares to raise even a mildly critical voice against abuses of human rights when they're by one of America's allies, but savage anyone who fails to condemn abuses of human rights when they're by one of America's enemies.

No one can trust two-faced bastards to protect human rights or civil liberties when they'll piss on them one moment then turn around and make a crusade out of them the next, depending on what their party tells them to do. Stop playing political games.

You mean the Palestinians oppressing women and forcing 5 year olds to marry 70 year old men is perfectly fine? Fuck off liberal scum, no one wants your twisted sense of morality besides your twisted sense of equality.

Go back and re-read what I wrote .... slooooowly. Use your finger to trace the words if it helps -- because it sounds like you struggle with words and you need all the help you can get. Then quote in full my sentence where I said child marriage was perfectly fine.

Can't find it? That's because I never even implied any such thing, shit-for-brains. Your debating skills are so piss-feeble that you can't even string together a coherent argument that could punch its way out of a wet paper bag. That's why turdwits like you are forced to resort instead to grotesque, off-the-wall idiocy such as equating condemnation of human rights abuses with a big thumbs up for child marriage. "What? You want tighter controls on, say, the use of white phosphorus? Why don't you just admit you support pedophiles, liberal scum?!" I mean, Jesus God. Did your parents actually pay for your education? Because if so, they deserve a refund and a fucking apology.

Oh piss off, we all know you're cherrypicking crap so you can ignore that Muslim countries are a cesspit of human rights violations specifically women's and gays. So don't try to tell us that Israel is somehow this big bad nation in the middle east when it's one of few outside Saudi Arabia that actually let women drive. Bet that's a big surprise to you.

What you think you know is actually less than jack shit. I've done campaigning work on behalf of Christian Solidarity International (in London) to highlight the often-overlooked situation of Christian minorities suffering persecution, mainly in Muslim countries. I've savaged sociopathic idiots who claimed that knife attacks on Jewish civilians in Jerusalem were "understandable". I've posted topics on GameFAQs to highlight comparisons between the exodus of Palestinian refugees in 1947-48 and the flight of Sephardi Jews from Arab countries between 1948-50. Bet it's a big surprise to you that not everyone's as narrow-minded and tunnel-visioned a partisan hack as you are.

But unlike you with your twisted, lying, two-faced conception of morality, I don't keep my mouth shut when conduct deserves condemnation, I don't have the poisonous hypocrisy to attack people when they raise their voice against arbitrary state power (let alone smear them as supporters of child rape), and I don't believe that a government -- any goverment -- deserves to be let off the hook for absolutely anything it does just because it happens to let women drive.
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Funkdamental posted...

What you think you know is actually less than jack shit. I've done campaigning work on behalf of Christian Solidarity International (in London) to highlight the often-overlooked situation of Christian minorities suffering persecution, mainly in Muslim countries. I've savaged sociopathic idiots who claimed that knife attacks on Jewish civilians in Jerusalem were "understandable". I've posted topics on GameFAQs to highlight comparisons between the exodus of Palestinian refugees in 1947-48 and the flight of Sephardi Jews from Arab countries between 1948-50. Bet it's a big surprise to you that not everyone's as narrow-minded and tunnel-visioned a partisan hack as you are.

But unlike you with your twisted, lying, two-faced conception of morality, I don't keep my mouth shut when conduct deserves condemnation, I don't have the poisonous hypocrisy to attack people when they raise their voice against arbitrary state power (let alone smear them as supporters of child rape), and I don't believe that a government -- any goverment -- deserves to be let off the hook for absolutely anything it does just because it happens to let women drive.

You're defending a country that laid claim to land that wasn't theirs and is now bitching since Adolf Hitler lost the war and the land was returned to the Israel, face it kid. You're smearing one of the few countries in the middle east that doesn't marry off small children to old as shit men, or force women to cover their faces or be killed, and for what? Brownie points? Your posts are making you sound more and more like a psychopath just going by how pissed you're getting.
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Foppe posted...

KazumaKiryu posted...

Blue_Dream87 posted...

If you care about human rights: both sides are fucked up but Israel is a bit more, because western powers just gave them someone else's land.

No... They didn't. It was their land that they were pushed out of in the first place.

The Muslims living there are the descendants of the Jews living there two thousands ago. They got religious traditions that are clearly inspired by Jewish traditions that no other Muslims in the rest of the world got.

This. Ironically (but not really if you understood history and cultural diffusion), the palestinians are more closely related to the local jews than the white european jews that entered the country after world war 2. of course now all the european jews are natives of the area and the palestinians (who look exactly like mizrahi jews, because they're the same people with different religions) are seen as invaders
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KazumaKiryu posted...

Blue_Dream87 posted...

If you care about human rights: both sides are fucked up but Israel is a bit more, because western powers just gave them someone else's land.

No... They didn't. It was their land that they were pushed out of in the first place.

No, it wasn't.
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EbonTitanium posted...

KazumaKiryu posted...

Blue_Dream87 posted...

If you care about human rights: both sides are fucked up but Israel is a bit more, because western powers just gave them someone else's land.

No... They didn't. It was their land that they were pushed out of in the first place.

No, it wasn't.

Neither the current Jews nor the Palestinian Arabs ever had claim to that land before 1900. It was controlled by the Ottomans for half of the last millennium, then the British after the Ottomans were defeated in WW1 and signed the land over to them. The British then divided Palestine into Jordan and Israel, giving one homeland to each group. While the Jews living in the Jordan region left and relocated in Israel, the Arabs living in the Israeli region did not (largely because Israel actually improved the country and created a real economy, unlike Jordan). The Palestinian Arabs never had claim to that land and are not entitled to it now, either.
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CarlGrimes posted...

You do know that it is more than just Palestine that wants to kill them right?

Again, the point that seems to need to be driven into your thick skull with a hammer: Israel is a nuclear-armed, regional superpower, and it isn't somehow in danger of collapsing if it restrains itself from using disproportionate or indiscriminate force, or refuses to allow colonists to build homes on occupied land, for example. The survival of the state doesn't hang on armoured combat vehicles opening fire recklessly on stone-throwing kids. There are certain things that any sovereign state (or oppressed people, for that matter) are perfectly entitled to do in self-defence; but then there are excesses and abuses that its blindly unquestioning supporters are prepared to back on the pretence that they also constitute self-defence.
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Blue_Dream87 posted...

Regardless its a shit show that you can blame Europe for

20th century in a nutshell
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I don't know how people can say Israel is in the right when they shoot Palestinian kids.

"Well Palestinians kill Israeli kids!"

Then that makes them both shit, Israel is not better.
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M_Live posted...

Like, I'm admittedly not too well versed on the situation, other than it's like a never ending war over land, but why does the entire rest of the world care so much? Seems like it causes nothing but problems every time the US gets remotely involved and it should have fuck-all to do with us at all.

Because the US merely decided to put their embassy in a country's capital and Palestine flipped a tit and their supporters are getting rustled.
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Israel has done some quite scummy things such as allowing the building of settlements in Palestinian territories while asking for peaceful coexistence, and curb-stomping the Palestinians every time they poke Israel with a pointed stick, relatively speaking.

But the Palestinians have never approached the peace negotiation tables in good faith for the past 80 years always intending for negotiations to eventually fail, and have purposefully dragged out the conflicts in the most vile ways possible (Hamas militants using children and other noncombatants as body shields to become conflict journalist bait, purposefully staging mortar and rocket attacks inside hospitals and schools still being used by civilians that are often forced to stay to drive up casualties and then crying to the media that Israel has attacked their hospitals and schools with no mention that militants have taken over the facilities and held everyone hostage) in order to wear down international approval of Israel and gain sympathy for themselves.
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The Admiral posted...

EbonTitanium posted...

KazumaKiryu posted...

Blue_Dream87 posted...

If you care about human rights: both sides are fucked up but Israel is a bit more, because western powers just gave them someone else's land.

No... They didn't. It was their land that they were pushed out of in the first place.

No, it wasn't.

Neither the current Jews nor the Palestinian Arabs ever had claim to that land before 1900. It was controlled by the Ottomans for half of the last millennium, then the British after the Ottomans were defeated in WW1 and signed the land over to them. The British then divided Palestine into Jordan and Israel, giving one homeland to each group. While the Jews living in the Jordan region left and relocated in Israel, the Arabs living in the Israeli region did not (largely because Israel actually improved the country and created a real economy, unlike Jordan). The Palestinian Arabs never had claim to that land and are not entitled to it now, either.

You're wilfully confusing property rights with the rights of statehood; and Palestinian Arab property rights were something the British Mandatory authorities definitely recognized right up until the very end of the Mandate. When you say the British "created Israel", either your grasp of the history is slippery or your use of language is deliberately dishonest.

Nor did Jewish capital create economic prosperity in Palestine for Arabs -- in view of the Zionist quasi-apartheid policy of evicting Arabs from ever-expanding Jewish-owned land and denying them leases on it (Article 3(d) and (e) of the Jewish National Fund's constitution) , of excluding Arab wage labour from the workplace in Jewish-owned businesses, and the readiness of the British authorities to implement protectionist policies that favoured Jewish industrial concerns like Nesher Cement or the Athlit Salt Company at the expense of local Arab economy.
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https://twitter.com/S_Saeen/status/939880573530787846
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Depends on where you live.
For some of you, the obvious answer is to build a wall around it.

(Just a joke)
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American liberals basically hate Israel right now because theyre really the only legitimate economic power in the Middle East that doesnt rely on oil. All this of course while not being Muslims and looking mostly European.
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Both sides suck. Just move everyone out and let nobody live there. Nuke it til it's a radioactive wasteland or saw it off and drop it in the ocean.
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Southernfatman posted...

Both sides suck. Just move everyone out and let nobody live there. Nuke it til it's a radioactive wasteland or saw it off and drop it in the ocean.

Wow, this post is almost too stupid to read in a single sitting.
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Tropicalwood posted...

You're defending a country that laid claim to land that wasn't theirs and is now bitching since Adolf Hitler lost the war and the land was returned to the Israel, face it kid. You're smearing one of the few countries in the middle east that doesn't marry off small children to old as shit men, force women to cover their faces or be killed, or actively try to kill people that don't think the same way, and for what? Brownie points? Your posts are making you sound more and more like a psychopath just going by how pissed you're getting.

What makes you and the other guy sound like cynically amoral, numbed sociopaths is that you think it's wrong to object to civilians being incinerated with white phosphorus because it somehow concedes undeserved points to the victims, and it's better for everyone to keep silent about it. Apparently, what makes me sound like a psychopath is being irritated by the crass idiocy of some half-head trying to make some utterly bonkers linkage between not wanting to see incendiaries used recklessly in Gaza and supporting child marriage in Gaza.

Democracies don't get carte blanche for their foreign policies just because they're democracies at home. No one's hypocritically holding Israel to a higher standard than other countries; instead, critics are judging Israel according to the standard that its governments and supporters have claimed for it: namely, as a western-style liberal democracy. You want us to believe you're one? Then make sure you behave like one. Christ knows your supporters can't be relied on to serve as your conscience -- they don't give a shit what you do.
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Funkdamental posted...

Tropicalwood posted...

You're defending a country that laid claim to land that wasn't theirs and is now bitching since Adolf Hitler lost the war and the land was returned to the Israel, face it kid. You're smearing one of the few countries in the middle east that doesn't marry off small children to old as shit men, force women to cover their faces or be killed, or actively try to kill people that don't think the same way, and for what? Brownie points? Your posts are making you sound more and more like a psychopath just going by how pissed you're getting.

What makes you and the other guy sound like cynically amoral, numbed sociopaths is that you think it's wrong to object to civilians being incinerated with white phosphorus because it somehow concedes undeserved points to the victims, and it's better for everyone to keep silent about it. Apparently, what makes me sound like a psychopath is being irritated by the crass idiocy of some half-head trying to make some utterly bonkers linkage between not wanting to see incendiaries used recklessly in Gaza and supporting child marriage in Gaza.

Democracies don't get carte blanche for their foreign policies just because they're democracies at home. Britain gave British women the vote in 1918, and Britain massacred at least 379 peaceful Indian protesters in Amritsar a year later. So, did votes for British women somehow make the massacre of Indians more palatable, more excusable?

No one's hypocritically holding Israel to a higher standard than other countries; instead, critics are judging Israel according to the standard that its governments and supporters have claimed for it: namely, as a western-style liberal democracy. You want us to believe you're one? Then make sure you behave like one. Christ knows your supporters can't be relied on to serve as your conscience -- they don't give a shit what you do.

Lol you have been destroying that guy throughout this topic while he continued to purposely misread your posts while throwing poop. Kudos.

Funkdamental posted...

Tropicalwood posted...

You're defending a country that laid claim to land that wasn't theirs and is now bitching since Adolf Hitler lost the war and the land was returned to the Israel, face it kid. You're smearing one of the few countries in the middle east that doesn't marry off small children to old as shit men, force women to cover their faces or be killed, or actively try to kill people that don't think the same way, and for what? Brownie points? Your posts are making you sound more and more like a psychopath just going by how pissed you're getting.

What makes you and the other guy sound like cynically amoral, numbed sociopaths is that you think it's wrong to object to civilians being incinerated with white phosphorus because it somehow concedes undeserved points to the victims, and it's better for everyone to keep silent about it. Apparently, what makes me sound like a psychopath is being irritated by the crass idiocy of some half-head trying to make some utterly bonkers linkage between not wanting to see incendiaries used recklessly in Gaza and supporting child marriage in Gaza.

Democracies don't get carte blanche for their foreign policies just because they're democracies at home. Britain gave British women the vote in 1918, and Britain massacred at least 379 peaceful Indian protesters in Amritsar in 1919. So, did votes for British women somehow automatically make the massacre of Indians more palatable, more excusable?

Most of Israel's critics in the West aren't hypocritically holding Israel to a higher standard than other countries. Instead, they're judging Israel according to the standard that its governments and supporters have claimed for it: namely, as a Western-style liberal democracy with respect for the rule of law, human rights and civil liberties. You want us to keep believing that you're one? Then we expect you to behave like one. Christ knows your supporters can't be relied on to serve as your conscience -- they don't give a shit what you do.

Dude, take a fucking chill pill already.

It's clear you know nothing about basic standards because the way you've been acting in this thread is like a child throwing a temper-tantrum because you were smacked for saying something stupid. All you've been doing through out this thread is saying how bad Israel is because you can't admit that Palestine is a cesspit of human rights violations and is clearly the worst party involved considering they ignore all attempts to a peaceful resolution to the situation. It's clear you have an agenda that involves downplaying the atrocities that Palestine consistently engages.

And for what do you do this for? Probably so when something bad happens to your country as a result you can play the victim for the next thousand years because of your ignorance.
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Fuck em all
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masticatingman posted...

American liberals basically hate Israel right now because theyre really the only legitimate economic power in the Middle East that doesnt rely on oil. All this of course while not being Muslims and looking mostly European.

"Liberals" love oil reliance?
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