Poll of the Day > Final Fantasy XII had the best of the FF battle systems-- change my mind

(+) Yeah! (+)

Gambit system allowing me to completely program my team's priorities... fuck yes. This was the system that raised the bar for my teammate standards that no other game has come close to touching ever since, IMO.

Oh, and completely off topic, fuck Donald and Goofy from Kingdom Hearts for running around being useless [word unacceptable on GFAQ]s. I wish I could program my teammates in every game to a helpful extent.

I just platinumed KH1.5 and 2.5 recently, and felt like I solo'd the whole thing with no help. In the time it might have taken me to wipe out like 10 end game heartless/nobodies, I would just see Donald dead in a corner and Goofy humping grunts with his shield for like minimum damage.
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15s is better than 12
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Final Fantasy XII had the best of the FF battle systems

No.

change my mind

No.
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RedPixel posted...

Gambit system allowing me to completely program my team's priorities... fuck yes.

How is that any better than "you attack the monster thing, you try to steal something, you use fire magic, and you heal that first guy"?

RedPixel posted...

allowing me to completely program my team's priorities

So sort of like the Tales series.
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I hated the battle system in XII, but I don't like the combat system in most Final Fantasy games, so that was no surprise. X was the best in my opinion, being entirely turn based but allowing speed to count for more than simply attacking first in a round. The only time I can say I liked playing with the ATB system used in most of the series was X-2, and the ability to swap class spheres in combat was the main reason. Even my favourite of the SNES games (V) was terrible combat for me.
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I'm still partial to FF 1.

The FF 5 class system is still the best.

XII had my least favorite battle system as well, of any game with the FF title unless you count "All the Bravest" (FFXV was close behind). It was too easy to set up the Gambits for everyone so you can let the fights play themselves until you decide to walk away or use your own commands to override the Gambits you had set up.

In other FFs, typically, you had the opportunity to manually enter commands for each party member, depending on the situations as they arose, unless you were severely over-leveled or geared to the point where you shout "MECHANICS ARE FOR CARS LOLOLOLOLllLLLllL...11!1" and just confirm the attack button the whole way through (at which point, that is plainly on you for over-doing it on the grind). Even Mystic Quest had more input or mechanics, and, in that game, you could set the secondary character to Auto if you wanted to. Even in XIII and XIII-2 you had paradigm shifts to change up what the other party members did at a given moment.

In XII, you could put in those commands manually in case you were just bad at creating Gambits before a fight, but you could also just hold the control stick aimlessly (and mindlessly) and let your party do all of the work, with barely any attuning of the Gambits at all. No, really, you have to actively try and be bad (or be a natural at it) to think the process is challenging or engaging in any way. But wait! Is that not enough for you? Here, have an optional boss battle that literally takes a few hours to beat if you're as powerful as possible, and you can even walk away from it periodically to heal up and come back to progress some more. Wow... so "fun."

People joked about how easy Mystic Quest was, but only XII made me feel like I needed to read a book or watch a show to keep my brain moving while I "played" it.
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if you like not playing the game, sure.
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I love FFXII and its combat system. It may seem like a game that plays itself, but you still gotta set up the party, jobs, gambits, equipment, etc. for whatever situation you're in which I think is part of the fun. Kinda like in Ogre Battle or Fire Emblem where most of your work is done before the battles take place.
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EclairReturns posted...

RedPixel posted...

allowing me to completely program my team's priorities

So sort of like the Tales series.

Kinda, but the Gambit system was way more specific and detailed

FFT still has the best battle system.

Unless BTB is modding it, you can get through every other FF game just by mashing one button and occasionally healing if your HP gets low. With XII, you don't need to mash the button anymore, but you still have to make decisions in battle, and to me, that's the most important part of FF battles. Mashing X or B or whatever in every battle was never riveting gameplay.

Ultima_Dragoon posted...

Unless BTB is modding it, you can get through every other FF game just by mashing one button and occasionally healing if your HP gets low.

Again, this is a sign of being overleveled or geared, even in the American SNES version of IV where half of the mechanics were removed.

Ultima_Dragoon posted...

With XII, you don't need to mash the button anymore, but you still have to make decisions in battle, and to me, that's the most important part of FF battles. Mashing X or B or whatever in every battle was never riveting gameplay.

"Which of these dozen or so gambits do I run, and with which characters?" Again, the setups are a no-brainer, otherwise. Tedious and yet dumb. And then you get to turn your brain off for the actual fights. To me that is indicative of a shit battle system.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

FFT still has the best battle system.

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The only problem with 12's battle system is sometimes the effects queue fills up so fast the game has to idle for a while.. doesn't really become a problem until endgame where something like Yiazmat will cast a spell and your guys will just sit there until the animation is complete.
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I enjoyed messing around with the gambits, because I generally enjoy minimizing the amount of micro I have to do in battles in games. But I liked 13-2 more overall. Constantly paradigm swapping, altering the AI's priority list to accomplish exactly what micro you wanted to happen anyways was more satisfying.

13-1 and 13-3 were hot messes, though.
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I enjoyed XII's battle system a lot, but I think 10-2 has the best combat system overall.
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I enjoyed it. It's only bad to people who obviously overused it.
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The FFXII system is -- well, if I wanted MMO-style combat, I would have played FFXI. Or FFXIV.

PMarth2002 posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

FFT still has the best battle system.

This, though I would swap in Tactics Ogre for FFT, since FFT is the evolved version of that system.
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FFVII or bust
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Decoy77 posted...

FFVII or bust

I mean... VII had a bust in it. "Had" being the key word. *Glares at the upcoming remake*
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Zangulus posted...

Oh the good old Set up Gambits, turn on game, use a rubber band to hold down button, leave game on over night, level 70+.

Best fighting system.

That was the shit back in the day bud.
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Relinquished posted...

Zangulus posted...

Oh the good old Set up Gambits, turn on game, use a rubber band to hold down button, leave game on over night, level 70+.

Best fighting system.

That was the shit back in the day bud.

Set the Lete River to move to the Right hand path, put a book on the A button, leave game on over night, level 70
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Lokarin posted...

Relinquished posted...

Zangulus posted...

Oh the good old Set up Gambits, turn on game, use a rubber band to hold down button, leave game on over night, level 70+.

Best fighting system.

That was the shit back in the day bud.

Set the Lete River to move to the Right hand path, put a book on the A button, leave game on over night, level 70

A step in the right direction, thank God. Convenient quality of life improvements!
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Firstly the license board was a terrible idea. It was an attempt to replicate the success of the sphere grid but, where-as the sphere grid required a large amount of work and effort to become a full-on master, the LB would easily result in all your characters being near-identical clones of each other in combat. There was no reason to not have your characters master everything and it could be done about midway through the game if you knew what you were doing. Sure, it got fixed in Zodiac Age, but we're talking about XII not XII:ZA.

Also, gambits were an un-needed complexity that required a player to understand priority lists and how to build them, nevermind having to buy the individual gambits, before being able to have a character who acts in a 'passable' manner. Made worse by them not explaining them well enough. Sure, if you put in a lot of work and effort you could get some very good results that basically removed your ability to play. 99% of people had no clue what the **** they were doing.
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RedPixel posted...

Gambit system allowing me to completely program my team's priorities... fuck yes. This was the system that raised the bar for my teammate standards that no other game has come close to touching ever since, IMO.

All that essentially meant is that the battles were even more mindless because once you had the perfect gambit program you literally did nothing. Just walk from one battle to another and wait for your characters to finish fighting.

People complain that FFXIII was on autopilot, FFXII literally played itself.
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XIII was actually pretty involved once you open everything up.
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Unbridled9 posted...

Firstly the license board was a terrible idea. It was an attempt to replicate the success of the sphere grid but, where-as the sphere grid required a large amount of work and effort to become a full-on master, the LB would easily result in all your characters being near-identical clones of each other in combat. There was no reason to not have your characters master everything and it could be done about midway through the game if you knew what you were doing. Sure, it got fixed in Zodiac Age, but we're talking about XII not XII:ZA.

Every FF has clones, namely 7...and all the job games. In X-2 the gang is absolutely identical to the last digit, outside of a couple dresspheres with unique abilities.

You either get stale clones, or you get stale pre-set paths (9 is a good example...in addition to a ton of useless abilities).

Dikitain posted...

All that essentially meant is that the battles were even more mindless because once you had the perfect gambit program you literally did nothing. Just walk from one battle to another and wait for your characters to finish fighting.

People complain that FFXIII was on autopilot, FFXII literally played itself.

Yeah, literally the same, literally...Aside from the fact that you literally changed your gambits literally every 5 seconds, yeah literally.

People complain that XIII was on autopilot, it was optional. Just like turning off gambits. Only, no one did either because they knew they were useful and needed to spew more garbage.

No one complains about 4s auto-battle. Guess its not popular enough.......
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No
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yourDaddie posted...

No

Nuff said.
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Relinquished posted...

Dikitain posted...

All that essentially meant is that the battles were even more mindless because once you had the perfect gambit program you literally did nothing. Just walk from one battle to another and wait for your characters to finish fighting.

People complain that FFXIII was on autopilot, FFXII literally played itself.

Yeah, literally the same, literally...Aside from the fact that you literally changed your gambits literally every 5 seconds, yeah literally.

People complain that XIII was on autopilot, it was optional. Just like turning off gambits. Only, no one did either because they knew they were useful and needed to spew more garbage.

No one complains about 4s auto-battle. Guess its not popular enough.......

Umm, was there a point in all that rambling? Because I am not seeing it...
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Probably not, based on what I mimicked.

Too many fallacies presented.
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AllstarSniper32 posted...

It's only bad to people who obviously overused it.

If it's so easy to overuse, is that really overusing it? Or would it be more accurate to say that people who use it less are underusing it?

_AdjI_ posted...

AllstarSniper32 posted...

It's only bad to people who obviously overused it.

If it's so easy to overuse, is that really overusing it? Or would it be more accurate to say that people who use it less are underusing it?

If you're setting up your gambits to handle any situation that comes up and then complain about it, you're overusing it.

Even if you don't use gambits at all you're not under using it, because it's an optional function.
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Wow, this is a major bait thread. XII had the shittiest battle system of all the final fantasies I've played.

You're right, it was really good. Use the right gambits and the game just played itself. And that's what I really love in a game: Not playing it.
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waterdeepchu posted...

You're right, it was really good. Use the right gambits and the game just played itself. And that's what I really love in a game: Not playing it.

XD
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BlackScythe0 posted...

Wow, this is a major bait thread. XII had the shittiest battle system of all the final fantasies I've played.

Dude can you even master bait?

Programmable teammates you don't even have to curse at. Just cause some people figured out gambit hacks for bosses doesn't mean you have to watch them. Figure it out yourself?
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RedPixel posted...

BlackScythe0 posted...

Wow, this is a major bait thread. XII had the shittiest battle system of all the final fantasies I've played.

Dude can you even master bait?

Programmable teammates you don't even have to curse at. Just cause some people figured out gambit hacks for bosses doesn't mean you have to watch them. Figure it out yourself?

It's trash combat with a trash leveling system.

AllstarSniper32 posted...

_AdjI_ posted...

AllstarSniper32 posted...

It's only bad to people who obviously overused it.

If it's so easy to overuse, is that really overusing it? Or would it be more accurate to say that people who use it less are underusing it?

If you're setting up your gambits to handle any situation that comes up and then complain about it, you're overusing it.

Even if you don't use gambits at all you're not under using it, because it's an optional function.

You could say the same thing about any game mechanic, though. You can complete SM64 almost without pressing the A button, does that mean that those who press the A button are overusing it? Or that "just don't jump" is a reasonable response to somebody finding the game too easy?

Of course, it's obviously not quite that clear-cut. There's often a very a fine line between reasonable use of mechanics and exploiting them to game-breaking levels, much how there's a fine line between reasonably neglecting a mechanic and deliberately avoiding it for the purposes of a challenge run. Personally, I haven't played FFXII to be able to say for myself how easily one can automate the game with Gambits without specifically setting out to break the game by doing so. Maybe doing that is overusing the mechanic. Maybe not doing that is underusing the mechanic. In a general sense, though, if somebody is saying "this game is boring if you use this mechanic to a reasonable extent," I don't think "you should use that mechanic less" is necessarily a valid defense of the game.

FF12 is bad at combat. Opinion. One I share with many people it seems. Blah blah blah various reasons failed attempt at trying to act like an MMO and horrible gambit system that was only at least somewhat fixed in a later release. Supposedly. Never played that international or HD version. Not gonna. Because its still little more then a crappy MMO and I'd rather risk my free time on games that might be enjoyable rather than replay something that was a failure the first time.

TC is free to feel however he wants.
.
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_AdjI_ posted...

You could say the same thing about any game mechanic, though. You can complete SM64 almost without pressing the A button, does that mean that those who press the A button are overusing it? Or that "just don't jump" is a reasonable response to somebody finding the game too easy?

Uh, no, it's no where near the same. First of all, can you complete Mario 64 without pushing the A button at all? In your post, you say "almost without pressing the A button," which means you do in fact have to press it. Which means it's not completely optional. You can play through and beat everything in FFXII without ever turning gambits on.

And as far as your, honestly, terrible game example. It'd be more like having a function in the game that you can set to "Goomba: jump on head" command. Where every time you're within jumping range of a Goomba the game automatically does it for you if you choose to turn that function on. In this case, it would be completely up to you to turn that function on or off.

_AdjI_ posted...

Of course, it's obviously not quite that clear-cut. There's often a very a fine line between reasonable use of mechanics and exploiting them to game-breaking levels, much how there's a fine line between reasonably neglecting a mechanic and deliberately avoiding it for the purposes of a challenge run. Personally, I haven't played FFXII to be able to say for myself how easily one can automate the game with Gambits without specifically setting out to break the game by doing so. Maybe doing that is overusing the mechanic. Maybe not doing that is underusing the mechanic. In a general sense, though, if somebody is saying "this game is boring if you use this mechanic to a reasonable extent," I don't think "you should use that mechanic less" is necessarily a valid defense of the game.

Oh, so you're bashing a game mechanic that you haven't ever used. OK. That would explain why you think it's the same as pressing the jump button in a platforming game.
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Automatic battle systems suck.

May as well be called Final Fantasy Manager.

The game doesn't give you enough gambit slots for every situation.

It's a pretty tough game at parts, and gambits aren't always going to save you. Enemies (especially bosses) love to inflict you with a bunch of statuses that keeps your gambits tied up in healing and protecting, or confusing your members to kill each other, or a bunch of other scenarios where you will lose if you don't intervene.

You can look up the OP strats beforehand but then you can't complain when the fights are easy and the gambits do all the work.

I think a lot of the comments I'm reading revolve around:

1) People jumping on the "easy mode" bandwagon despite never playing the game-- (my opinion matters though!)
2) Confusing a battle system with game difficulty; although they go hand in hand on the playthrough, I think they should be somewhat isolated for the sake of the discussion
3) The battle system being "too automatic"-- well then shit, guys, feel free to play manually? The key word is flexibility. I'd rather have the option of having completely programmable teammates versus herp derp crap AI

I almost feel like I could have rephrased the title to be a little less broad. Problem is that I was talking about all FF games, so it seemed like a better way to word it at the time.

The poster(s) who pointed out the flaws of the license board-- I found that argument to be pretty legitimate. And yes, Zodiac Age is a different game in itself.
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These guys saying plays itself probably unironically watch FF gameplay videos lol

The game is real time. You know, like every other game released since then. And you have the option to do everything manually like a caveman. Thus, you didnt because surprise, gambits take the edge off.

Hope they also know gambits were revolutionary and were praised to be adapted to other games. So simple yet successful...

BlackScythe0 posted...

It's trash combat with a trash leveling system.

You couldve just said all FF gameplay sux instead and no one wouldve minded.
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Relinquished posted...

You couldve just said all FF gameplay sux instead and no one wouldve minded.

FF5 and 10-2 have pretty good gameplay, arguably also 3.

Relinquished posted...

BlackScythe0 posted...

It's trash combat with a trash leveling system.

You couldve just said all FF gameplay sux instead and no one wouldve minded.

I wasn't trying to make a false statement.