Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 391: My Son is Also Named Abort

(+) Yeah! (+)

I want Biden going crazy trying to pass every insane progressive executive order he can so many they have to constantly be swatting them down and dont have time to do any evil shit.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I think it would probably be a better message if local Dems kept getting elected while Democrats at the national level get blown out historically.

Ahh yes, much better message. Let the fascists take over. Fuck over the LGBT, fuck over women, fuck over everyone. Cause it totally worked when Donald Trump won! Why we got progressive candidate Joe Biden as the nominee the next time! Worked out great. If you're a minority, just hold on tight and hope that when the Republicans take back the house, the senate, and then pass voter restriction laws so you can't vote if you're gay, ever had an abortion, or thought about having an abortion (or just had a miscarriage!). I'm sure then we'll finally win! Totally.

We get the great choice between the person who will loudly take away our rights and the person will be quietly be happy were losing our rights while they watch ineffectively despite Republicans being able to do anything they want no matter who or how many people they have elected.

I expect voting blue won't *hurt* but I'm pretty sure we're just kinda screwed regardless of who votes and how

also I live in IL my vote ain't worth beans past the local level

PerfectChaosZ posted...

I want Biden going crazy trying to pass every insane progressive executive order he can so many they have to constantly be swatting them down and dont have time to do any evil shit.

A) You assume they (GOP controlled states) can't walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. All they do is quickly sue and get a judge to put an injunction against it since the current law of the land is there is no constitutional right to an abortion.
B) There's very little the federal government can do to enforce those EOs if they're in direct contradiction with state laws. Especially since the means for the states to enforce said laws is much much easier.

Unless we're full-scale sending troops into abortion clinics to keep them open.

Also frankly if the solution is some shady shit that's not gonna hold up in court doctors aren't going to take on the legal risk to perform abortions

Those are some shitty doctors then

PerfectChaosZ posted...

despite Republicans being able to do anything they want no matter who or how many people they have elected.

This isn't really true.

See: The ACA.

If Dems had 53 votes like the GOP did in 2017-2018 when they failed to get even that I think they'd actually get voting rights and codified Roe passed.

Reminder that the GOP under Trump actually got very little done. Trump just constantly lied about things that weren't happening. State level GOP has turned more states into absolute hellholes and that's largely because so many states that should hypothetically be purple are gerrymandered into absolute fucking oblivion. Like "Dems get more votes in state races, GOP gets 75% of the seats in state legislature" fucked.

I mean I genuinely don't really see a solution to it either. Like, I passed the despair horizon years ago. The reforms that would be necessary are not ones I see as achievable. But I don't take that as an excuse to not continue to try and vote and advocate in ways to help those who are in a hell of a lot more danger than I am.

Sheep007 posted...

I just wish the opposition was a bit less shit because I neither support them nor think they're competent enough to get the Tories out in the first place.

Well look on the bright side. Theyre better than the Democrats!

To be honest while Ive been disappointed by Labour for the last year, they still have some really good policies like the National Care Service, and would absolutely be a huge improvement. And with the Liberal Democrats finally learning and making electoral reform with no referendum a requirement for any deal, theres reason to be optimistic.

Also unlike the Democrats a Labour government would actually be able to do stuff because it isnt held back by a system that guarantees paralysis!

Jakyl25 posted...

Those are some shitty doctors then

I mean we already have a doctor shortage in the US so asking them to perform procedures without governmental protection with fear of getting their license revoked and possible jail sentences is asking them a lot.

TheRock1525 posted...

Unless we're full-scale sending troops into abortion clinics to keep them open.

This is 100% what the current bandaid solution should be btw

https://mobile.twitter.com/Alison1mackITV/status/1544956358331711488?s=20

Boris Johnson is resigning.

Biden's presidency just seems like a redux of Obama's so far TBH.

Ding dong the witch is dead

I don't get why the Tory party is getting rid of him. Do they really think they have a better alternative for winning the next election?

red sox 777 posted...

I don't get why the Tory party is getting rid of him. Do they really think they have a better alternative for winning the next election?

Because hes had non-stop scandals for two and a half years, is deeply unpopular, and they would be nearly wiped out if there were an election today. The real tipping point was losing two seats in by-elections about two weeks ago. One was a newly won at the last election former industrial seat they lost in a landslide to Labour, and the other was a held since the nineteenth century rural seat they lost in a landslide to the Liberal Democrats. Basically their whole coalition of voters is collapsing and they blame Boris.

So to answer your question, in terms of governing whoever they pick will be worse because Boris threw out or sidelined everybody competent in 2019, including major names. However, electorally a new PM always gets a bounce in the polls and they can just lie and say theyre turning over a new leaf. So while theres nobody good, getting rid of Boris is their best chance in an election.

Ah, 2 elections lost. I guess that would do it.

just a revolving door of tories that ain't gonna stop

red sox 777 posted...

Ah, 2 elections lost. I guess that would do it.

Oh, it was a lot more than two over the years, these were just two on the same day in two very different but extremely symbolically important seats, one of which a recent gain and one of which ultra-safe Tory. It was bad even by the standards of his poor record of by-elections.

GuessMyUserName posted...

just a revolving door of tories that ain't gonna stop

The hope is theyve finally reached the bottom of the barrel. The lineup of contenders isnt exactly a murderers row.

Ashethan posted...

Ahh yes, much better message. Let the fascists take over. Fuck over the LGBT, fuck over women, fuck over everyone. Cause it totally worked when Donald Trump won! Why we got progressive candidate Joe Biden as the nominee the next time! Worked out great. If you're a minority, just hold on tight and hope that when the Republicans take back the house, the senate, and then pass voter restriction laws so you can't vote if you're gay, ever had an abortion, or thought about having an abortion (or just had a miscarriage!). I'm sure then we'll finally win! Totally.

The fascists are taking over right now with Democrats behind the wheel.

When the car has no brakes, is driving slowly over the cliff better than trying to break the car before it gets there? I dunno, at least thats something.

Yeah, I thought for a bit that trumps election might expedite a backlash against the Republicans that would bring the downfall of the party.

Nah, I was wrong. There are more white supremacist sympathizers than anticipated

Tony back to full accellerationist.

meanwhile I have been catching up on some really cool anime.

politics? Well yes, re:zero does have some interesting political intrigue which I would love to talk about.

Leafeon13N posted...

Tony back to full accellerationist.

I literally said vote locally.

Where do you stand?

The national party has admitted they cant/wont do anything unless something impossible happens, so we just keep saying vote harder and then what? Scold people for giving up hope on a party willing to risk anything for them?

I feel like we do a great job of critiquing each other's responses to being set on fire but little else sometimes.

Like, we're all on fire, most of us recognize it, but it is hard to think rationally when you are on fire.

https://twitter.com/kinofabino/status/1544830302643707907?s=21&t=L0YSXSU8070lNTW0Mi2oEQ

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

The national party has admitted they cant/wont do anything unless something impossible happens, so we just keep saying vote harder and then what? Scold people for giving up hope on a party willing to risk anything for them?

So accelerationist. Yep.

There's other forms of political action besides "vote vs not vote"

I'm all for burning it all down, but while we haven't done that we probably should do whatever we can to not let the wannabe nazis have more power.

Leafeon13N posted...

I'm all for burning it all down, but while we haven't done that we probably should do whatever we can to not let the wannabe nazis have more power.

Im still waiting for you to posit anything at all.

We voted, Democrats won, and nazis got more power.

Now what? Do it again?

If you agree that were screwed, and you say youre fine with burning it all down, what are you doing besides throwing stones?

DoomTheGyarados posted...

I feel like we do a great job of critiquing each other's responses to being set on fire but little else sometimes.

Like, we're all on fire, most of us recognize it, but it is hard to think rationally when you are on fire.

Also for the record, if you think my position is irrational, Im open to the rational position, because do what didnt work, again is the definition of irrational.

The issue is that in some countries politicians wield so much power, and so much centralised power, theres often little else. The UK is this way, at least if you live in England, as FPTP, the whip system, absolute parliamentary sovereignty and minimal devolution make it effectively an elected dictatorship.

This is not the case in America however, where the power is less centralised. Then again, many red states have effectively turned themselves into mini-dictatorships at this point, so live in a not terrible state?

Yeah, whatever way you slice it, I don't think the electoral strategy of "just turn out the vote" is particularly effective. As mentioned we are smashing turnout numbers but as things are, they are not decisively swinging for Dems. I am increasingly unconvinced there is a hidden potential blue wave of nonvoters to unlock. It isn't that people can't be convinced, it's that the Democrats are too unconvincing to swing voters.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

We voted, Democrats won, and nazis got more power

Nah, Nazis are just using the power they accumulated prior to the Dems winning.

It just feels like more because the one branch not affected by the last election has been going crazy.

LightningStrikes posted...

Well look on the bright side. Theyre better than the Democrats!

To be honest while Ive been disappointed by Labour for the last year, they still have some really good policies like the National Care Service, and would absolutely be a huge improvement. And with the Liberal Democrats finally learning and making electoral reform with no referendum a requirement for any deal, theres reason to be optimistic.

Also unlike the Democrats a Labour government would actually be able to do stuff because it isnt held back by a system that guarantees paralysis!

Don't get me wrong, I'd be absolutely delighted if Labour did come in and their policies on the NHS and social care alone would be godsends, but I'm not going out of my way to actively support the party itself. I also don't see any realistic path to them actually getting in beyond a complete Tory collapse at election time, given how damn conservative the UK is and with Scotland almost permanently switching to the SNP.

I'd still much rather a coalition than just Labour, but I expect they'd need both the Lib Dems and SNP support, and I don't know if they'll accept significant electoral reform or IndyRef 2 as terms (both would make sense but a non-Tory government seems even less likely without Scotland, if I'm being selfish). I'll also say that this is me being cynical and treating some of the "safe" Tory seats as still safe when recent elections have shown that may not be the case, but I struggle to see a boring leader like Starmer winning over a boring Tory. Even in current circumstances, but especially with a war going on, Brits will always lean more conservative. I'd love to be proved wrong, though!

Regardless, I'll pinch my nose and vote Labour if I'm living in a marginal constituency because no chance am I letting the Tories in. Otherwise it'll probably be Plaid/SNP/Green for me, assuming the candidate isn't a nutter.

And yes, not to depress the Americans, but the crappy system here is delightful in comparison. Having to deal with weird old money families and stiff-upper-lip sociopaths is still a step up from open white nationalists and religious fundamentalists!

Sheep007 posted...

And yes, not to depress the Americans, but the crappy system here is delightful in comparison. Having to deal with weird old money families and stiff-upper-lip sociopaths is still a step up from open white nationalists and religious fundamentalists!

Ok but can you get rid of your god damn TERFs? They've spread over here and started allying with our fascists and religious conservatives, and I can pretty much guarantee this is going to be disasterous for both countries.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Its the other way around, they came from America first to Britain and were allied with the fascists from the beginning. Its all just trying to find the next wedge issue and minority to hate for political gain.

Also, Britains TERF problem is a fraction of Americas, with both more trans-friendly laws (eg the US only banned discrimination last year) and the public polling consistently in favour of trans rights across the political spectrum, unlike the US where its party lines. Furthermore theres a solid half of the US that is straight up pursuing eliminationist policies against trans people, which thankfully isnt on the agenda in any part of the UK yet.

Not to say that the UK doesnt have a TERF problem because it does. Its just worse in America. I think trans rights becoming a party issue in the US is why, though the downside in the UK where there is more cross-party consensus on the matter is that that means that there are so-called liberal or left TERFs also.

LightningStrikes posted...

Also, Britains TERF problem is a fraction of Americas

I think Britain's news media is largely more anti-trans than the US's is, obviously not Fox news but there's otherwise a lot more platforming of TERFs in britain

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Im still waiting for you to posit anything at all.

We voted, Democrats won, and nazis got more power.

Now what? Do it again?

If you agree that were screwed, and you say youre fine with burning it all down, what are you doing besides throwing stones?

The revisionist history to the 2020 election is kind of interesting.

It was supposed to be a huge blue wave to swing power in the Senate but in actuality just squeaked a tie after needing to win two runoffs.

It was not a success.

I think y'all have more TERFs and we have more straight up unapolagetic transphobes

not that there's much of a difference in the end really

Americans only talk about trans people in conservative media, the rest just wanna lay low and ignore us.

The UK on the other hand is just all-around focused in on trans folks and platforming rampant bigotry from every source.

I'm just relieved not to be in either country

I feel more like the US doesn't have as big a TERF problem because our anti-trans people are also usually anti-feminist (among other things). The US isn't great on trans issues, but the worst bigots can't get mainstream coverage because their other bigoted views are too unacceptable.

Yeah all the jokes about the UK being where all the TERFs are really look kinda silly with all the current happenings here in the US

On a purely technical level though, much of our anti-trans contingent arent radfems, so not actually TERFs <_<

The UK likes to pretend that it's better than the US on issues such as trans rights and racism, but in reality is that they just get less press due to being a much smaller country with less sensational headlines. US also has the whole police brutality thing which often intersects with the aforementioned issues and immediately goes to the forefront of public consciousness. Even then, the UK has its headline moments.

But thats the biggest news source in the US!

I think you raise an interesting point though, which is media. If you look at it from a media figure angle, maybe, but politically, legally, and socially, definitely not. Though even the former did originate at least in part in the US, both through the actions of American anti-LGBT groups and through people taking inspiration from the anti-trans actions under Trump and in red states. Again, not to say all is well in the UK, but there isnt half the country and a head of state with an express desire to effectively genocide trans people. Trump literally said he wanted to legislate trans people out of existence, its eliminationist rhetoric that is currently rare but I worry may pick up.

I think in general people dont realise how much the US attempts to directly influence other countries. Here in Ireland, during the abortion referendum campaign you could not move for American anti-abortion campaigners. Luckily they failed, but the current political climate in the US is a menace that goes far outside its borders.

Though if were making a TERF/transphobe distinction thats more debatable because the US just has a lot more overt misogynists in general as noted. Though honestly its a largely academic distinction when talking about transphobia, and UK women overwhelmingly support trans rights in polls - more than men!

They are still trying to legislate trans people out of existence, and theyre making some headway

Jakyl25 posted...

They are still trying to legislate trans people out of existence, and theyre making some headway

Yep and thats exactly my point.

Like, lets be clear to KPs point - the UK *is* much better than the US on trans rights and racism, you just need to look at the numbers of the text of the law. HOWEVER, some people like to take that to mean that the UK has no problems with discrimination at all and it very much does. There is a lot of racism and a lot of transphobia in the UK. The US is just so bad, it offers cover. None of this is in praise of the UK, I got out of there years ago and have no desire to return.

I think it's important to differentiate between TERFs and straight up conservatives, because you will probably run into TERFs in most liberal or leftist spaces. The whole "gender is based on your genitals and determines whether you are a victim or victimised" as their entire ideology definitely leads to a lot of overlap, but a lot can't get past open misogyny from conservatism. And I know TERF numbers are pretty small, but they're a very vocal minority.

I also think some of the frustration comes from how TERFs should theoretically be supportive of certain things? Like, not getting treated like dirt because of your gender, or not having your agency removed based on your genitals. Which tend to be things I'd associate with feminism and makes it feel like they're easier to reason with (and they often have relatively sane takes on plenty of other topics, too).

I do think that addressing the historical attitudes of gender essentialism that brought about TERFs and transphobia as a whole is often more effective than focusing as much on TERFs as we do, but the arguments are similar regardless.

The big difference between the countries is that the few UK organisations with more socially liberal attitudes towards gender like the Guardian and the BBC have produced some hateful stuff about trans people. It's probably better to be entirely ignored than have organisations which could be supportive try shitting all over you. I think it's fair to look at Rowling for a lot of the movement, and incidents like the Forstater case (which I am utterly clueless as to how she won when compared to similar-ish cases) really blew the movement up.

Also, not to say it's as bad as in the US and I think we pretty much agree, but the UK government has made it very explicit that they are taking measures to exclude trans people or prevent transition where possible, and I would be wary about arguing there's very limited eliminationist rhetoric. It's the same basic ideas here, just far more politely put.

as a non-American I have to say that the need for non-Americans to pat themselves on the back for not being the US is incredibly annoying and fosters complacency

hear it all the time about people dismissing racism/xenophobia as a problem in Canada by saying "we're not the Americans" meanwhile shit like the niqab debate strongly resonated with voters in the 2015 election, not to mention the active and inactive treatment of indigenous populations

I'm thankful that Canadian politics has stayed away from anti-trans rhetoric, but even still knowing how much Canadians supplement their media intake from both the US & UK (mostly the former) I absolutely dread where we'll be come the next federal election season (ignoring provincial elections that literally nobody pays any attention to).