Current Events > so why the fuck is bug/glitch exploit valid in speedrunning again?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Even though they discover it themselves. I still call it bullshit. It is not speedrunning, it is "lol i break the game amd trigger the credit using this bug"

Those people who claim they finished super mario 64 or dark souls in one minute using bugs should not count.

It shouldnt be constrained into doing what the game actually allows you to do, but alot more efficient than the average players.

Like shortcut in super mario bros can count because it was intentionally programmed so people can discover it. Fighting gwyn right after arriving to firelink shrine because you use clipping/faulty platform finding/whatever sholdnt not count.

Fucking speed running is overcoming challenges that for people took hours or days in less time.
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IIRC, there's different competitions in speedrunning. Some allow the uses of exploits from bugs/glitches. Some don't.
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Tmaster148 posted...

IIRC, there's different competitions in speedrunning. Some allow the uses of exploits from bugs/glitches. Some don't.

This. Both methods can be interesting and fun to watch or accomplish.
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Its something that anyone can do and its part of the developers original code, so its not like it gives the speed runner an unfair advantage.
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I loved watching the video of that Psychonauts speed runner showing the developers all the ways he exploited the game and all the parts he skipped through bugs/exploits.
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Yeah this is what I've been saying for years. It's one of the multitude of problems with speed running as a concept. There may be categories for people who don't exploit the code and play the actual game. But it says something about the idea of speedrunning on the whole if those aren't the popular modes of competition. That people would rather compete to not play the game to...be the best at the game?

It just fits I guess with how disjointed the idea of speedrunning is that people would lose focus on the game itself and want to go for the absolute lowest time. Even if that means glitching out parts of the game and if an important boss that actually tests the player's ability at that game happens to be skippable, then so be it. It's a natural outgrowth of speed running as a confused attempt at creating a meta game in a very non-scalable way.

I don't put stock into a player's skill at a game by using speed running as a metric for a reason.
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Because it's a part of the game. They weren't created by any modifications.
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Credits warp categories are very unpopular. Glitch exploitation is totally fair hame, though.
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Sometimes the glitched runs are more interesting than the glitchless ones. Other times glitchless is more interesting. Depends on the game and on what the glitches do.

SavenForever posted...

Because it's a part of the game. They weren't created by any modifications.

I've actually wanted to focus on this to tackle the topic of speed running and I was thinking of using the idea of the Ship of Theseus to explain the problem with it.

Taken to its logical conclusion if a player continues to allow exceptions because they are in the code at some point it is transformative into an entirely different game depending on how many holes are in the code. A game that is entirely different from the community that wanted a competitive environment to the original game.
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Nomadic View posted...

Its something that anyone can do and its part of the developers original code, so its not like it gives the speed runner an unfair advantage.

SavenForever posted...

Because it's a part of the game. They weren't created by any modifications.

it isn't intentionally put in there. if god existed, and he create everything and one day he goof off and accidentally create a portal from a marathon runner's start line to finish line would it deemed as a fair sport?

it might be amusing to watch, but it won't count
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I honestly prefer bug skips over legit shortcuts tbh >_>
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SavenForever posted...

Because it's a part of the game. They weren't created by any modifications.

They are not intended to be part of the game. That's the issue.
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GiftedACIII posted...

I honestly prefer bug skips over legit shortcuts tbh >_>

yeah i mean it's fine for entertainment, it can get amusing but if you want to set records, tells media and stuff about your accomplishment, don't.
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apolloooo posted...

if you want to set records, tells media and stuff about your accomplishment, don't.

This is you, TC:


People often like glitchy speedruns. Not with all games, mind you; in SM64 for example, 120 star is way more popular than 0/1 star. But in games like OoT, glitchless is way less popular. You're telling people to stop liking glitchy speedruns just because you don't like them.
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It's called any% runs.
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oot any% is boring as fuck, oot 100% is fucking amazing

both feature glitches

The only speed runs I don't think should count for the categories they do are ones like your standard diablo 1 speed run. Basically, if you have save files with very specific floor layouts, you can start a fresh file and have set floor layouts that let you basically go forward and down every floor but like 3, where 2 have trash mobs you beat and get rare drops for to upgrade your equipment and skills, and the last floor obviously being the final boss who you kill in like 6 seconds. The reason being, you do worm ahead of time before starting the run.

There's a few others like that where you can play a game in the console beforehand, manually inject code into the system (think of the item# glitch for pokemon blue) and then the speed run starts when you start the actual game you intend to.
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SavenForever posted...

Because it's a part of the game. They weren't created by any modifications.

There's more than a few SNES and GB games where a common speed run method is basically "inject code into the game" or "convince the system you're in an area that doesn't exist in the code and not one it should try and load up by default, but then force it to think that area IS one that exists ie the credits"
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apolloooo posted...

Nomadic View posted...

Its something that anyone can do and its part of the developers original code, so its not like it gives the speed runner an unfair advantage.

SavenForever posted...

Because it's a part of the game. They weren't created by any modifications.

it isn't intentionally put in there. if god existed, and he create everything and one day he goof off and accidentally create a portal from a marathon runner's start line to finish line would it deemed as a fair sport?

it might be amusing to watch, but it won't count

That's God's problem.

008Zulu posted...

SavenForever posted...

Because it's a part of the game. They weren't created by any modifications.

They are not intended to be part of the game. That's the issue.

Well, it's part of the game now. So, it counts.
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Kaiganeer posted...

oot any% is boring as fuck, oot 100% is fucking amazing

both feature glitches

Oh okay
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SavenForever posted...

That's God's problem.

I mean, if this actually happened we would quite literally move the goalposts into a way so that all runners would be "fair".
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Tmaster148 posted...

IIRC, there's different competitions in speedrunning. Some allow the uses of exploits from bugs/glitches. Some don't.

This is all that needed to be said tbh.
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It's valid because

1) the community of people who run the game agree it's a category for their game
2) people run the category

Very simple stuff. Speedrunning is a democratic hobby. There are no absolute rules, just ones agreed upon by the people who run the games (rules for individual games vary)

If you don't like glitch runs, don't watch them and don't run them.
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It's just one category of speedrunning. There are records for all categories, and often times the glitches and exploits are more difficult than simply playing the game.

Like, I don't understand how anyone who actually is into speedrunning could think this is a valid criticism
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Because anything that's accessible without a cheating device is fair game. If you don't like it watch glitchless runs.
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It's valid because the people who partake in the hobby agree that it's valid.
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Clearly you know nothing about speedrunning
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Which is why I prefer to watch glitchless speed runs and 100% speedruns if there's one.
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SavenForever posted...

Well, it's part of the game now. So, it counts.

No, it's not. If patching services were available back then, it would have been fixed.
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People who don't like glitches in speedrunning piss me the fuck off. I find the mechanisms behind how people learn that it exists and execute it fascinating.
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Don't like glitched ones?

Then watch glitchless categories. Done.
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apolloooo posted...

Nomadic View posted...

Its something that anyone can do and its part of the developers original code, so its not like it gives the speed runner an unfair advantage.

SavenForever posted...

Because it's a part of the game. They weren't created by any modifications.

it isn't intentionally put in there. if god existed, and he create everything and one day he goof off and accidentally create a portal from a marathon runner's start line to finish line would it deemed as a fair sport?

it might be amusing to watch, but it won't count

That would be an unfair advantage that the other competitors didnt have access to. Thats not analogous.
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008Zulu posted...

SavenForever posted...

Well, it's part of the game now. So, it counts.

No, it's not. If patching services were available back then, it would have been fixed.

But they weren't, so yes, it is part of the game now.
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You still have to be fast at getting to the glitch and performing the glitch.

Plus, like others have mentioned, there are all kinds of speedruns, including "no large skips," and they're generally all recognized as impressive.
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008Zulu posted...

SavenForever posted...

Well, it's part of the game now. So, it counts.

No, it's not. If patching services were available back then, it would have been fixed.

You can easily skip most of Prey (a 2017 game) by wall clipping.
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