Board 8 > Do you have aphantasia? (inability to picture images)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Aphantasia is a mental condition characterized by an inability to voluntarily visualize mental imagery.

Essentially:

https://i.redd.it/uf5brm3to1e21.png

If you're told to imagine a picture of a red star in your mind, and you can't picture an image of greater detail than 1 or 2 on that image, you probably have aphantasia.

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colors are kind of tough but shapes are no problem

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I'm a 3 to 5 on the picture scale. Depends greatly on how striking the visual image is that I'm trying to imagine.

Also I mostly made this topic because people with aphantasia usually don't know they have aphantasia and I'm curious if anyone on B8 is in that camp

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I dont think so, but now im thinking about thinking while im thinking and its making me second guess myself

like am I actually picturing that red star or am I thinking about what it looked like and not really seeing the image but like what is seeing within your mind? is what I think is seeing not actually what seeing is

I mean Im pretty sure I dont have it, but even being made aware that its a possibility is messing with me now
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This is tricky. It's a vague, inconsistent image because I'm not actually seeing it, but it has all the details, like being red and a star.

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MoogleKupo141 posted...

I dont think so, but now im thinking about thinking while im thinking and its making me second guess myself

like am I actually picturing that red star or am I thinking about what it looked like and not really seeing the image but like what is seeing within your mind? is what I think is seeing not actually what seeing is

I mean Im pretty sure I dont have it, but even being made aware that its a possibility is messing with me now

Within your mind. Can you imagine a red star

Im someone with hyperphantasia, the opposite of this. I see something closer to like an 11 or 12 on that scale <_<
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

I dont think so, but now im thinking about thinking while im thinking and its making me second guess myself

like am I actually picturing that red star or am I thinking about what it looked like and not really seeing the image but like what is seeing within your mind? is what I think is seeing not actually what seeing is

I mean Im pretty sure I dont have it, but even being made aware that its a possibility is messing with me now

From what I understand, people with aphantasia literally can't see anything but black when they close their eyes. There's also different ranges of people's abilities to imagine visual images - not everyone is going to be able to picture the star well, but as long as you get SOMETHING you don't have aphantasia. The opposite is hyperphantasia, which I've seen described as basically being able to play an HD movie in your head.

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Reading the prompt before clicking the link, I imagined a hyper-realistic red star like the sun but red, not the symbol version
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I mostly just get flashes of an image when I first think about them, but I have trouble holding on to them before they disappear.

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Simple colors/shapes (like that red star) are no problem for me, easy 6.

Faces are tough though. I'm pretty sure in my dreams, nobody has a face - not in a spooky way, just my brain can't handle that level of rendering.
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I thought of a Red Dwarf star, what does this say about me?
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Im fascinated by how people with aphantasia describe reading books. Like they just process the words without actually seeing the scenes in their head.
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KamikazePotato posted...

From what I understand, people with aphantasia literally can't see anything but black when they close their eyes. There's also different ranges of people's abilities to imagine visual images - not everyone is going to be able to picture the star well, but as long as you get SOMETHING you don't have aphantasia. The opposite is hyperphantasia, which I've seen described as basically being able to play an HD movie in your head.

Well I mean I don't literally "see" anything but I do have a fairly clear feeling of what a star looks like that's hard to describe exactly what the feeling is, like I can roll my eyes around in my head to follow outlines and stuff. But as far as what I'm literally seeing it usually is just black. I dunno. I tried really hard just now and I thought I "saw" a 2 or 3 but that's generally more detail than I'll see.

So maybe I have it?

I do see images when I dream though.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Im fascinated by how people with aphantasia describe reading books. Like they just process the words without actually seeing the scenes in their head.

I can somewhat understand that my ability to visualize things I'm reading changes drastically based on how I'm feeling at the time. The real mindblowing thing is people learning they have aphantasia and that other people can picture mental images, because I always see comments like "I thought stuff like 'picture this' was a metaphor, not something literal!"

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I feel like I can picture things in my head pretty clearly but this topic is making me second guess things. I mean I can visualize a red star but do people actually see things in their head as clearly as 6? It's pretty hazy for me even if the colors are vivid.

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Lopen posted...

Well I mean I don't literally "see" anything but I do have a fairly clear feeling of what a star looks like that's hard to describe exactly what the feeling is, like I can roll my eyes around in my head to follow outlines and stuff. But as far as what I'm literally seeing it usually is just black. I dunno. I tried really hard just now and I thought I "saw" a 2 or 3 but that's generally more detail than I'll see.

So maybe I have it?

No its not literal sight.
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Lopen posted...

Well I mean I don't literally "see" anything but I do have a fairly clear feeling of what a star looks like that's hard to describe exactly what the feeling is, like I can roll my eyes around in my head to follow outlines and stuff. But as far as what I'm literally seeing it usually is just black. I dunno. I tried really hard just now and I thought I "saw" a 2 or 3 but that's generally more detail than I'll see.

So maybe I have it?

I do see images when I dream though.

People with aphantasia can have visual dreams, I think. Some can, some can't.

Are you able to visualize things in other scenarios? Like, if you're reading a book, can you picture the scene you're reading?

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skullbone posted...

I feel like I can picture things in my head pretty clearly but this topic is making me second guess things. I mean I can visualize a red star but do people actually see things in their head as clearly as 6? It's pretty hazy for me even if the colors are vivid.

If you can visualize vivid colors then you don't have aphantasia. The term isn't 'can't visualize things perfectly', it's can't visualize ANYTHING, or barely anything. Most people aren't able to visualize things perfectly.

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skullbone posted...

I feel like I can picture things in my head pretty clearly but this topic is making me second guess things. I mean I can visualize a red star but do people actually see things in their head as clearly as 6? It's pretty hazy for me even if the colors are vivid.

Man, I can make that thing into 3D, put it in outer space, make UFOs fly around it, make it do the The More You Know animation, etc.
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Oh okay. "Literally can't see anything but black" when they close their eyes had me confused because that definitely is what I am actually literally seeing most of the time.

But like, it's more elaborate than that. I can definitely imagine scenes when I read books. As an example I just watched the Harry Potter movies and had moments where the movies directly contradicted how I imagined a character or scene and it's nothing that the book made explicit, just something dumb like "I kinda thought Kreacher was bigger than that"

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https://i.redd.it/p0bwbtow4pq51.jpg

Found this as an example of what a person with aphantasia imagines when told to visualize an elephant. They get the impressions, ideas, and details of the object, but can't actually 'see' the object.

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If you do have aphantasia, Ive heard psychedelic drugs can help awaken your minds eye
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It's really finicky, but for some reason I have no problem doing this when my eyes are open.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Man, I can make that thing into 3D, put it in outer space, make UFOs fly around it, make it do the The More You Know animation, etc.

Yeah I could do all of that too but it doesn't look anything close to number 6. Reading books is VERY vivid for me but everything I picture in my head still has a sort of hazy fuzz. Shit maybe I have hyperphantasia I mean it's not like there's a way to ever really know.

I've actually thought I should be better at art because I can clearly see a drawing or image in my head with all of the lines and colors and where everything should be but I can't replicate it very well in practice.

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Here's some counterpoints to the elephant image I posted:

I have aphantasia as well, and find this picture interesting but I don't really imagine an elephant like this. No words, descriptions etc. I'd just imagine the idea of an elephant don't really know how to explain it. I'll just know what it is without consciously thinking of these words or phrases. Saw someone else on this subreddit refer to it as Invisible Imagery. Similar to how I've heard people who can visualise imagine things, but just... without the visualization. Hope this made sense

Oh weird, I don't think in terms of visual characteristics at all. I mean I can explain what it looks like if I have to, that process is more akin to rote memorization than actual conceptualization.

But when I think of something like an elephant I would think about the sound it makes, it's feeding habits or ecosystem, behaviors, etc

So yeah, this varies greatly from person to person.

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Yeah, I definitely don't have this problem. My visual recall of stuff is pretty solid, too.

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Janus5k posted...

It's really finicky, but for some reason I have no problem doing this when my eyes are open.

I was also gonna say that yes, I think I can visualize things in color better when my eyes are open. Like my mind actively has the colors available to pick from and it makes it easier or something.

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Yeah if you ask me what an elephant looks like I can think of all the details. And like I said I can even roll my eyes around in my head to outline those details as I "visualize" them. Like a baby/far elephant and a big/close elephant would feel differently.

But I'm not actually seeing anything, most of the time. Either my eyes are open and I'm sorta spacing out, or my eyes are closed and I'm seeing black with some trickles of light, maybe fooling my eyes into thinking they see something resembling a shape. But I mean the elements are all there even though there's no actual sight. Like I said movie adaptations often feel "wrong" for this reason, because I had features and details mapped out in my head even beyond what is explicitly stated (sometimes contradicting outright), even if I can't literally see anything.

Jakyl25 posted...

If you do have aphantasia, Ive heard psychedelic drugs can help awaken your minds eye

I took some mushrooms (portabella, of course) recently and this came up. Not with this level of depth but basically it was "I don't want to close my eyes it'll freak me out" vs "I have no problem closing my eyes" (guess which one I was)

Maybe I need to investigate harder drugs. Or a higher dose of (portabella, of course) mushrooms.

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Yes, and when I learned the term it blew my mind.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Yes, and when I learned the term it blew my mind.

In what way? Because it gave a label to how you processed the world, or because you didn't know other people could visualize images, or both?

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I have a photographic memory so no

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Yup, I do. My friends always question how I like to read and play tabletop RPGs as well because of it.

And then, when they learned about the term, they kept asking me details on things I've seen before and I'm like guys I don't have to picture it I just remember the details.

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Hyperphasia checklist shameless stolen from Reddit:

Visual - Picture an apple on a plate.

1. What color is the apple?
2. What variety is the apple? (Red Delicious, Granny Smith, Macintosh...)
3. Which direction is the light coming from?
4. Is there a specular reflection - ie, a shiny spot, as if light is being accurately reflected by the skin of the apple?
5. Are there imperfections in the surface? Roughness, subtle variations in the color of the apple?
6. Is there reflected illumination from the plate onto the apple?
7. Can you easily zoom in on the apple, rotate it, etc? How faithful to an actual 3-D physical object is this in your mind's eye?

Audio - Imagine a song, one with vocals and instruments. Pick one you're familiar with.

1. Does it have all the instruments?
2. Are the vocals changing pitch, tone, etc?
3. Are the vocals actual words, or just sort of gibberish fitting the role? (Try singing along to whatever is going through your head out loud if you're not sure)
4. How sharp are the drums?
5. Can you change the tempo?
6. Can you make the singer sound like they huffed helium?
7. Can you swap out instruments? Swap out lyrics wholesale?
8. Can you change the key or mode of the song?

Touch/Proprioception - Imagine your hand and an object, any object, in front of you.

1. Can you mentally reach out and touch it?
2. Does the object feel like it should? Hard/soft, hot/cold, smooth/rough, etc...
3. Could you feel your own imagined hand and arm? Were you aware of the physical movements in the same way that you know where your physical arm/hand/fingers are without looking?
4. How heavy is the object you imagined? The right weight?
5. Can you change that weight?
6. Close your eyes (mentally or physically, whatever works) and concentrate on that imagined hand. Start with the thumb. Tap it to your palm. Do the same with your index finger, then your middle, ring, little finger. Any problems?
7. Can you keep going? In other words, can you continue to 'tap fingers' with fingers you don't have - imagine that you had extra fingers - despite not having a real-life analogue to compare to?
8. Can you go a step further, and imagine the feel of wholly alien things (bird wings, say) that will require entirely fictitious input?

Smell - Imagine a flower, preferably one with a strong smell

1. Can you smell it at all?
2. Does it smell strong enough, or just a faint whiff?
3. Is the smell accurate - a rose smelling like a rose?
4. Can you make it smell like something else - fresh cookies, say?
5. Multiple smells at once? Rose, cookies, old stinky socks?

Taste - Seems to be pretty rare, but... imagine a few foods.

1. Can you taste them?
2. If you imagine something salty - like a pickle or potato chips - and add imaginary salt to it, does it taste saltier?
3. Can you distinctly tell apart the taste of distinct items, like, say, two flavors of chips, or two kinds of candy bar, or two different wines?
4. Kind of the acid test: if you imagine a few foods and what they would taste like together, can you go in your kitchen, get those foods, eat them together, and have them taste the same? That is, are your imagined tastes demonstrably the same as the real thing to a degree that it would be useful cooking?

Okay I definitely have hyperphasia because I can do all of these things

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Yeah I definitely dont have smell and taste hyperphantasia
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I feel like I have audio hyperphantasia if that's a thing. All of those changes seem really natural to me and are things I've done while imagining songs in my head. Smell I can't do at all. Visual I basically just had an apple in a vacuum on the prompt so couldn't do half. Touch I can actually do pretty well.

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I can definitely picture things in my mind, don't necessarily even need to close my eyes for that although I guess it's a little easier if I do.

But are people actually capable of closing their eyes and then literally see these shapes with their eyes like the ones in the pictures? because if so my mind is blown.

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skullbone posted...

Are the vocals actual words, or just sort of gibberish fitting the role?

even when I'm actually listening to music, I just sort of hear gibberish fitting the role most of the time

I have to know a song really well to actually hear all the vocals as words
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I hit all the hyperphantasia checkmarks. It can sometimes be overwhelming to be honest, having such an over-acting imagination. It makes it so much easier to be anxious about things.

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I don't even really get what this is asking. No one is literally seeing a red star appear on the back of their eyelids when they do this right?
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ok after letting the weird fear that i somehow always had this condition without realizing it leave my mind, I feel comfortable saying I dont have it

Im like pretty clearly visualizing a Smash Bros fight in my head right now. I dont know if its necessarily picture 6 level detail, but its got color.
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i thought i had a pretty good imagination but not hyper, seems about right

Visual - 1, 2. 5 and 7 to some extent.
Audio - 1-5
Touch - 1, 2, 4, 5
Smell - nothing

my proprioception is terrible in general so no surprise it's non-existent in my imagination

Dragonair posted...

I can definitely picture things in my mind, don't necessarily even need to close my eyes for that although I guess it's a little easier if I do.

But are people actually capable of closing their eyes and then literally see these shapes with their eyes like the ones in the pictures? because if so my mind is blown.

no you can't literally change the information your eyes are sending to your brain. everyone is doing exactly what you do, with the amount of detail being the variable.

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pyresword posted...

I don't even really get what this is asking. No one is literally seeing a red star appear on the back of their eyelids when they do this right?

Yes, they are.

EDIT: People in this topic seem to have different definitions of what they mean by 'see'. I can make a red star dance in front of me. It's not as 'real' as if it were an actual physical star, but I can still 'see' it.

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also on the hyperphasia side, I think I can do the audio stuff. Im able to pretty clearly play songs in my mind and I Icould make some of those changes too, but its hard for me to play more than one audio track at a time... like I can do the guitar or the vocals but not both at the same time.
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

ok after letting the weird fear that i somehow always had this condition without realizing it leave my mind, I feel comfortable saying I dont have it

Im like pretty clearly visualizing a Smash Bros fight in my head right now. I dont know if its necessarily picture 6 level detail, but its got color.

I visualized Waluigi when I read Smash Bros fight. :(

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KamikazePotato posted...

Yes, they are.

wait are they ? Im seeing what I see in the same place whether my eyes are open or not, so it cant really be the back of my eyelids. Its sort of above them? Like if Im closing my eyes, the back of my eyelids would be this black stage that the mental images appear on top of.
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

wait are they ? Im seeing what I see in the same place whether my eyes are open or not, so it cant really be the back of my eyelids. Its sort of above them? Like if Im closing my eyes, the back of my eyelids would be this black stage that the mental images appear on top of.

This feels like what I was trying to get at. People in this topic seem to have different definitions of what they mean by 'see'. I can make a red star dance in front of me. It's not as 'real' as if it were an actual physical star, but I can still 'see' it. That counts as 'seeing' to me.

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KamikazePotato posted...

This feels like what I was trying to get at. People in this topic seem to have different definitions of what they mean by 'see'. I can make a red star dance in front of me. It's not as 'real' as if it were an actual physical star, but I can still 'see' it. That counts as 'seeing' to me.

he said "appear on the back of eyelids" though, and it is not that

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What I'm getting at is asking whether or not people are literally seeing anything at all. I can imagine the concept of a star or the concept of a blurry looking star and somehow establish to my mind what those two would look like, but I can't literally imagine the sight of a star in any way that my mind would interpret as a real image.
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pyresword posted...

but I can't literally imagine the sight of a star in any way that my mind would interpret as a real image.

Yes, I (and most others) can do that.

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pyresword posted...

What I'm getting at is asking whether or not people are literally seeing anything at all. I can imagine the concept of a star or the concept of a blurry looking star and somehow establish to my mind what those two would look like, but I can't literally imagine the sight of a star in any way that my mind would interpret as a real image.

No, not literally seeing. Imagining
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