Current Events > Communism and socialism go against selfish human nature

(+) Yeah! (+)

But the entire world, or at least everyone I disagree with, is definitely working together to hide the truth about everything through a massive campaign of payoffs and fear.

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Okay bub

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The fact that the propaganda was so strong that people STILL treat socialism as communism is incredible. The lack of education about what communism actually is also isnt helping.

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TheVipaGTS posted...

The fact that the propaganda was so strong that people STILL treat socialism as communism is incredible. The lack of education about what communism actually is also isnt helping.

Communists believe that socialism just is the gateway to full on communism

unnamedsoldier posted...

Communists believe that socialism just is the gateway to full on communism

Socialism, as Marx and Engels established, doesn't really exist outside of actual communism, and barely even then sometimes.

The nations we point at and scream "socialism!!!" are more socal-ish-m.

Maybe... The idea is that human nature changes when material conditions change.

It's not really fair to say that most tax paying people who generally follow laws are greedy, they are just getting by. Greedy would be making monopolies or pricing people out of opportunity.

I'd like to hear a broader account of how people are greedy though.

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

I'd like to hear a broader account of how people are greedy though.

TC is probably going to say something like "*gestures at all of human history*"

best case scenario, he's going to mention like 3 cherry-picked examples with no explanation of how any of them actually show that humans are inherently greedy

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

Maybe... The idea is that human nature changes when material conditions change.

Life will never be "fair", despite any attempt to forcefully make it so.
The best we can really do is try to make things slightly less crappy for someone who's getting shit on by life.

People are not inherently greedy or selfish. We would not have survived humanity's infancy if we didn't cooperate as much as we did.

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averagejoel posted...

TC is probably going to say something like "*gestures at all of human history*"

best case scenario, he's going to mention like 3 cherry-picked examples with no explanation of how any of them actually show that humans are inherently greedy

Yeah I mean even at the global level, empires mostly lost out to nations. Empires are clearly more greedy in nature but were abandoned because of wars and stuff I guess. So that is one (fairly cherry picked kek) example of how human nature changes with conditions. So I think we're able to go a less greedy route when it means getting along. I'm not a historian though and neither is the dude I questioned so maybe asking for details like that makes no sense

Questionmarktarius posted...

Life will never be "fair", despite any attempt to forcefully make it so.
The best we can really do is try to make things slightly less crappy for someone who's getting shit on by life.

Would you believe justice as fairness is mostly a liberal idea? It's very Rawlsian, who I understand to more or less be one of the poster children for the current western world order. But that is more theoretical.

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Imagine citing human nature, about which we know nothing, in an argument.

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MorbidFaithless posted...

People are not inherently greedy or selfish. We would not have survived humanity's infancy if we didn't cooperate as much as we did.

Right. We're a bunch of nerdy ass weaklings, and the strongest of us can get our throats torn out by animals half our size which are meant to hunt animals half their own size. The only way we were able to murder out way to the top of the food chain is because of our brains and cooperation. Muscle headed fascists and their like need us to forget these things, because their philosophies are the denial of this reality, leaving their softest, juiciest parts weak and open.

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Most parents are against communism and I guess the cycle of son rebelling against the parents and then later becoming an overbearing zealot wanting submission to his will.

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

Would you believe justice as fairness is mostly a liberal idea?

I'll need to look that up a bit better than what I did just now.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Socialism, as Marx and Engels established, doesn't really exist outside of actual communism, and barely even then sometimes.

They took the idea from Christian Socialism.

Depends who's asking for it. If you're poor, you have a lot to gain from it (in theory at least )

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Questionmarktarius posted...

I'll need to look that up a bit better than what I did just now.

Yeah I'm not up to speed on it either, I'm just familiar with the notion

If you ever want to read and discuss a book together at some point I'm game?

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If the actual Aliens reveal happens

they will probably like Obama said, push for a new religion


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MedeaLysistrata posted...

If you ever want to read and discuss a book together at some point I'm game?

I never actually finished Trosky's The Revolution Betrayed, and forgot most of what I did read, anyway. That might be a fun one.

Questionmarktarius posted...

I never actually finished Trosky's The Revolution Betrayed, and forgot most of what I did read, anyway. That might be a fun one.

A bit long in terms of my likelihood to complete but I have nothing going on right now so ima start

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MedeaLysistrata posted...

A bit long in terms of my likelihood to complete

There's always Sowell's "Trickle Down Theory" and "Tax Cuts for the Rich" - it's about 15 pages.

averagejoel posted...

TC is probably going to say something like "*gestures at all of human history*"

best case scenario, he's going to mention like 3 cherry-picked examples with no explanation of how any of them actually show that humans are inherently greedy

Humans are greedy. But we are also compassionate, like fairness, and share.

... some more than others :p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KSryJXDpZo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6iifr7nzRg

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/03/opinion/sunday/what-monkeys-can-teach-us-about-fairness.html
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Capitalism goes against human nature since it goes against morality

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality

There's plenty of evidence that morality is a result of evolution. A lot of mammals show it. A species that can help each other forces a biological feedback that makes the species stronger.

Unfortunately a lot of humans seem to lack an empathy center in their brains. It can develop late in adolescence for some, and never in others.

Rexdragon125 posted...

Capitalism goes against human nature since it goes against morality

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality

There's plenty of evidence that morality is a result of evolution. A lot of mammals show it. A species that can help each other forces a biological feedback that makes the species stronger.

Unfortunately a lot of humans seem to lack an empathy center in their brains. It can develop late in adolescence for some, and never in others.

Rexdragon125 posted...

Unfortunately a lot of humans seem to lack an empathy center in their brains

It's possible capitalism has bred too many ruthless humans by incentivizing bad behavior.
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Notti posted...

It's possible capitalism has bred too many ruthless humans by incentivizing bad behavior.

It has more to do with the deluge of right-wing propaganda people are exposed to and how it rots their brains. People are not born racist or bigoted, they are taught these things.

I think we can attribute the high level of moral depravity throughout so much of human history to the awful living conditions that humans have had to endure throughout most of human history. People are shaped by their socioeconomic conditions.

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Questionmarktarius posted...

There's always Sowell's "Trickle Down Theory" and "Tax Cuts for the Rich" - it's about 15 pages.

We oughta do a "shitposters read books!" thread.

so far it's almost like i'm reading/hearing everything i want to read/hear... when does it get to the betrayl!?

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You can't have justice and fairness in a world with limited resources and a growing population. Of course, capitalism can only make things worse since it means allocating most of those resources to very few people.

Expecting people to willingly care for the poor through charity goes against selfish human nature.
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MedeaLysistrata posted...

so far it's almost like i'm reading/hearing everything i want to read/hear... when does it get to the betrayl!?

Right about the time Lenin gets dead

averagejoel posted...

TC is probably going to say something like "*gestures at all of human history*"

best case scenario, he's going to mention like 3 cherry-picked examples with no explanation of how any of them actually show that humans are inherently greedy

I think you're missing my point. I am mocking the idea that "socialism can't work because people are selfish" comes from people who think there is a massive conspiracy working to control the world. That would require a lot more cooperation than a single country instituting an economic system.


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Human nature is cooperative in nature. Society doesn't exist if we all were "Every man for themselves".

We wouldn't have made it past cavemen times if humans didn't work together. You think one human takes down a mammoth?

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Questionmarktarius posted...

Right about the time Lenin gets dead

"There is no correspondence between the different elements of industry; men lag behind technique; the leadership is not equal to its tasks. Altogether this expresses itself in extremely high production costs and poor quality of product."

""Our works," writes the head of the oil industry, "possess the same equipment as the American. But the organization of the drilling lags; the men are not sufficiently skilled." The numerous breakdown, he explains are a result of "carelessness, lack of skill and lack of technical supervision""

oh no

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"Socialism for Radical Tourists"
god dammit, Trotsky.

Are you insinuating there's some kind of correlation? You should be careful, you're gonna pull something stretching that far

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VayneSolo posted...

You can't have justice and fairness in a world with limited resources and a growing population. Of course, capitalism can only make things worse since it means allocating most of those resources to very few people.

To be fair, it's not like what came before was better.

As an amateur sociologist, I will hazard to say that society shapes us at least as much as we shape it. Probably more so.

Rexdragon125 posted...

Capitalism goes against human nature since it goes against morality

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality

There's plenty of evidence that morality is a result of evolution. A lot of mammals show it. A species that can help each other forces a biological feedback that makes the species stronger.

Unfortunately a lot of humans seem to lack an empathy center in their brains. It can develop late in adolescence for some, and never in others.

This is false, capitalism feeds into our strongest traits which are our unrivaled greed, wants and desires, on top of our competitive nature. Which helped us win the evolutionary battle time and again to eventually become the dominant species on the planet and achieve all the marvels we have today.

Which is why the system has proven to work far more efficiently vs others that didnt.

And honestly, unless humanity were nothing sort of ant like, I dont ever see communism and socialism working long term.


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It takes a special kind of delusion and naivety to think communism is actually realistic for a large group of people passed the age of like 18

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Infinite 2003 posted...

It takes a special kind of delusion and naivety to think communism is actually realistic for a large group of people passed the age of like 18

It takes an even more sinister kind of delusion to believe that the human race has any chance to survive except viciously revolting against capitalism, abolishing private property, and uniting to fix all the problems they have caused.

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Prismsblade posted...

This is false, capitalism feeds into our strongest traits which are our unrivaled greed, wants and desires, on top of our competitive nature.

Many would argue that these are our detriments, not our strongest traits.

How useful is competition at getting people to share ideas and come up with the best possible solution? How useful is greed when one's selfish desires come into conflict with the needs of the community?

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Greed, want and desire are widely regarded as weaknesses, if not sins, in most or all world religions for a very good reason. They're only valorized by modern capitalist society because capitalism is stupid and lacking in ethos.

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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Many would argue that these are our detriments, not our strongest traits.

How useful is competition at getting people to share ideas and come up with the best possible solution? How useful is greed when one's selfish desires come into conflict with the needs of the community?

Most of our greatest achievements today are a result of the above mentioned in some way, shape or form.

Hell people oftentimes work together out of competitiveness, greed, or even just personal desires. I mean, did you seriously think everyone wanted to reach the moon just for the sake of it?

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This topic has reminded me I need to read Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution by Kropotkin. I've always been of the perspective that selflessness and community-centered organizing is what has largely kept us humans alive so long, and a lot of issues today seem to arise because we're diverging from that towards rewarding greed through capitalism and authoritarianism.

But tbh, the "human nature" appeal already is bunk shit and irrelevant.

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Prismsblade posted...

Most of our greatest achievements today are a result of the above mentioned in some way, shape or form.

Hell people oftentimes work together out of competitiveness, greed, or even just personal desires. I mean, did you seriously think everyone wanted to reach the moon just for the sake of it?

do you seriously think that humanity landing on the moon was the result of something other than co-operation?

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averagejoel posted...

do you seriously think that humanity landing on the moon was the result of something other than co-operation?

It's a fact. Not sure what your issue is here.

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Prismsblade posted...

It's a fact. Not sure what your issue is here.

the issue is that it requires co-operative effort from a lot of people to achieve results like that

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averagejoel posted...

the issue is that it requires co-operative effort from a lot of people to achieve results like that

It's not a issue that conflicts with any of the aforementioned traits.

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Capitalism is when human nature. You see, it is natural for one human to own everything and make all other humans their slave. Learn economics.

Prismsblade posted...

It's not a issue that conflicts with any of the aforementioned traits.

Youre saying unabated selfishness and cooperation are compatible? What?

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Shablagoo posted...

Youre saying unabated selfishness and cooperation are compatible? What?

Yea, people cooperate regularly either to do things selfish things all the time. Dunno why this this is such a foreign concept to some of you.

Kind of like how charisma, two generally positive traits arent always synonymous with good but evil as well. This applies to negative traits as well.

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I thought under communism the real goal is to get into power so that you own everything and decided who gets what under you?

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