Board 8 > Giggs reads and comments on A Dance with Dragons

(+) Yeah! (+)

Also the entire character of Quentyn. Screw him.

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[Evil Republican]
Play Der Langrisser.

"My name is Theon. You have to know your name"

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EndOfDiscOne

I don't disagree, but Asha's seem that much more obviously unnecessary to me because she's not even observing any main characters. Tyrion and Dany's arcs might not have been the most exciting, but their actions have been narrated from the start of the series and they are two of the cornerstones of the series - it makes sense that Martin would wanna detail everything that happens to them. In comparison, A Game of Thrones had no Davos chapters with Stannis mulling about on Dragonstone or whatever the hell else he was doing - he was alluded to quite frequently, but even when he became rightful king he remained offscreen. And that worked really well.

I just feel like Martin's lost the willingness to infer occurences rather than show them in great detail. Which is why AFFC and ADWD are so goddamn slow-paced and action-deficient compared to the first three.

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And if you don't know, now you know.

The next Victarion chapter has one of my favorite quotes in the series.

I'm not sure why it's called "Victarion" either...maybe you'll be better at reasoning that out than me.

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Also, it might be founded on very little but I have really high hopes for the next Victarion chapter. I almost certainly put too much stock in chapter headings, but if I remember correctly it'll be the first of his bearing his actual name. And switches from names to titles and vice versa tend to symbolize serious psychological shifts in identity (see Arya, Theon).

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And if you don't know, now you know.

Tyrion and Dany's arcs might not have been the most exciting, but their actions have been narrated from the start of the series and they are two of the cornerstones of the series - it makes sense that Martin would wanna detail everything that happens to them.

That's true, but usually we don't get so much all in one place like that. Look at Ned's chapters in A Game of Thrones - we get a couple in Winterfell, a couple for the journey, a few for the main action in King's Landing, and one or two in prison at the end. Most of those chapters cover other main characters too. There's no reason Tyrion's journey couldn't have been done in half the number of chapters (even a quarter the number of chapters...), likewise Dany's struggles in Meereen. GRRM could've even kept their number of chapters the same if he really wanted, and had them go way further into the future than they do.

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All the stars in the sky are waiting for you.

Oh Giggs, I agree with you.

It's just that we get all of the negatives that that entails and none of the positives.

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##Alec

I don't think that's entirely fair; there are only a handful of examples of bad plot arcs that result from his new style, and there are one or two notable good ones too. Jaime's transformation in books 3 and 4 was almost entirely insular - only a small number of his chapters in those books were strictly necessary for plot-moving purposes, but they resulted in one of the best characters in the series. And Sansa's chapters in AFFC were really no different in structure to Brienne's - a lot of scene-setting and social commentary to build up to a climax with actual plot relevance - but they made her genuinely likable for the first time in the series.

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And if you don't know, now you know.

Well obviously GRRM can use whatever style he wants if it's really enjoyable to read. But Dany and Tyrion's arcs in Dance were nowhere near as interesting as Jaime's in Storm and Feast, and they didn't get any real character development either.

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All the stars in the sky are waiting for you.

I think to say Tyrion and Dany got no character development in ADWD would be ridiculous; I haven't finished the book so I can't say where the events of the book leave them as characters, but they've developed quite a bit already. Dany especially gets more character development in ADWD than in all the other books since AGoT combined.

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And if you don't know, now you know.

Let's just wait til the end of the book and have a discussion so both sides can use all evidence.

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"nah, it's not my team if I drop pitchers for merely being horrible" -War13104

Heh, I can't help but hear the actors voices when reading this book. Tyrion, Barristan, Jon. It's perfect.

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The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG

up

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The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG

badump

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Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Sorry guys, finished the book yesterday but I've been really busy. Will post detailed thoughts later/tomorrow.

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You slut.

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http://img.imgcake.com/nio/51alecpngpa.png -Nio

I do what I can.

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And if you don't know, now you know.

Chapter 70: Daenerys (X)

To frame my thoughts on this chapter a little, rewind to the last (non-epilogue) chapter of A Storm of Swords. It's a Sansa chapter, most notable for being the one in which Littlefinger tosses Lysa out the Moon Door. But after the absolute mayhem of the preceding chapters (Stannis appearing at the Wall, Tywin's death), I loved how it began so idyllically with Sansa making snowmen and ruminating about how happy she was to finally be out of King's Landing. It was beautifully written, and the images were so serene; a massive contrast to everything that came before, but a perfect way to close the first act of the series.

And then Lysa goes crazy and almost kills Sansa before Littlefinger murders her.

It always seemed almost distasteful to me. I know Martin probably still planned the five-year gap at that stage, but in hindsight Lysa's death could easily have been postponed 'til Feast (lord knows it could have used more excitement) and left Storm with a touchingly low-key ending to a book of high drama.

Which is almost exactly what Martin gave us here. I could have done without the slightly graphic descriptions of Dany's symptoms, but for the most part this was a chapter of Dany bonding Drogon and enjoying the freedom of having no responsibility one last time before she makes her final stand at Meereen and pushes for her birthright. The khalasar at the end also presumably made it a great prologue to her first chapter in TWoW, without ruining the almost dream-like feel of the chapter.

I can understand why people didn't like this as an ending, but I thought it did what it set out to do almost perfectly.

4/5


Chapter 71: Epilogue (Kevan Lannister)

I love Varys. He's been one of my favourite characters since I first read AGoT, and I've always thought he was massively underappreciated by the fanbase in general. So of course I was ecstatic to find that he's been basically chessmastering Westeros for two decades. I like my patient schemers. Just ask Doran Martell.

I like Kevan too, for the record, but I'm more than happy to see him taken out in the name of fostering chaos and/or a Targaryen uprising. And Pycelle was overdue to die in a nasty fashion.

Fantastic ending all around; can't wait to see the mayhem of King's Landing in the aftermath of this.

4.5/5

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And if you don't know, now you know.

Right, here goes! First off, a quick summary of the remaining chapters:

Chapter 62: Victarion (II)

Definitely the best Victarion chapter yet, but I'm still not entirely on board his hype train (no pun intended). I can't say the reasoning for the chapter's basic titling is that clear, beyond speculating about his relative embrace of R'hllor, but he certainly has seemed like a more resolved, singularly minded guy after the arm incident. Somewhat disappointed he didn't get closer to Dany, but at least he's poised well for next time (this will be a recurring theme).

Also, monkeys.

3.5/5

Chapter 63: The Ugly Little Girl (Arya II)

Another really cool Arya chapter with not a lot to actually discuss. I had to re-read it to work out how she'd killed the guy, though. Exceptionally clever writing right there.

3.5/5

Chapter 64: Cersei (II)

Making me pity Theon just wasn't enough for you, George? This "not exactly disproportionate but certainly unnecessarily cruel" punishment thing you have going is NOT COOL.

3.5/5


Chapter 65: Tyrion (XII)

It doesn't seem fair to punish this chapter for the context in which it appears or the glacial pace of Tyrion's whole arc in general, especially seeing as it is far from bad. The fact that this is supposed to represent some form of "closure," however, is borderline insulting. This is exactly the sort of chapter that I am happy to read in the middle of a book but not at the supposed climax and in turn hammers home just how much of a truly "middle" instalment ADWD really is.

2.5/5

Chapter 66: The Kingbreaker (Barristan III)

I'm not sure if Barristan's a better POV character than Dany at this point or he just happened to take over Meereen duties when the situation there became more interesting. He's sure as hell less rounded as a character, despite what the Dany haters might say; character development is one thing she definitely hasn't lacked in this book. Nonetheless, it's cool seeing him come out of his knightly shell in his small arc and actually start bossing ****.

4/5


Chapter 67: The Dragontamer (Quentyn IV)

What a hilariously cruel chapter name. There isn't a lot else to say here that won't be better covered in my POV character analysis later, though.

4/5


Chapter 68: Jon (XIII)

This is the one chapter that I wish I'd been able to discuss with you guys "live." I mean, holy CRAP. There's tremendous reward for analyzing this chapter - even discounting the Azor Ahai hints, Ramsay's letter falls apart as soon as you actually think about it - but it's so fantastically written and fraught with tension that I never once did until I'd finished the book. I read the letter over three times before continuing and didn't even consider that it was filled with blatant lies. It was just that harrowing.

And then there was the end. I know it was foreshadowed for like the whole damn book but that doesn't make it any less affecting. Damn.

5/5


Chapter 69: The Queen's Hand (Barristan IV)

From what I can remember not a lot actually happened in this chapter (besides the obvious confirmation of Q-Dawg's demise). Nonetheless, Barristan gets better as a character with every chapter he gets, simply because even thoughts of "holy crap I'm old let's not complain about it" deepen the sliver of character he had prior to this book. To actually learn to rule is an excellent development for him, though. I almost hope he remains a POV character now!

3.5/5

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And if you don't know, now you know.

POV Character / Arc thoughts:

Tyrion: 5/10

A horrendous lack of closure lets Tyrion down considerably. It's almost absurd that an arc where the series' most readable character meets Illyrio, Jon Connington, Aegon and Jorah Mormont could be rated so low, but almost all of that happens in the first half of the novel and he barely manages anything after that besides deadpan snarking, edging closer to Slaver's Bay and talking to Penny far too damn much. And if Martin had decided that Tyrion's arc was to end upon recruiting the Second Sons, he could have easily halved his chapter load. It's not even like his mundane middle chapters informed anything of note!

Don't get me wrong; his arc is far from the only one that ends anticlimactically. But unlike many I have no issue in principle with ADwD being primarily a book of set-up, and almost every other viewpoint at least prepares their characters for big stuff in the near future. Tyrion doesn't even get that. Sure, there's the vague promise of taking Casterly Rock on the horizon, but not for a long ass time. I can hardly picture Tyrion spending the majority of TWoW doing anything but yet more travelling, and if that is the case I will be very displeased.

Jon: 8.5/10

This, on the other hand, was a example of how theoretically mundane chapters can work. The tension building through Jon's arc was constant and cloying throughout, even when he was doing things like checking the granaries. Jon also grew tremendously as a character in this book; his great leadership didn't exactly make him any less archetypical, but his brave decision-making did work brilliantly as a counterpoint to Dany's lackluster ruling style.

And, cliff-hanger or no (I've never really seen the issue with these anyway), it paid off. Jon's final chapter would've been among the best in the novel even without its violent climax, but that just moved it over and above. It was beautifully foreshadowed and perfectly executed, so much so that I can't even feel any animosity towards Bowen Marsh and co. An unqualified success.

Daenerys / Barristan: 6.5/10

Now this is an interesting one. Unlike Jon, who got climactic closure, and Tyrion, who got an anticlimactic lack of closure, Dany got...somewhere in between. As a narrative of character, Dany's arc was arguably the most effective in the book, and resolved itself beautifully in her finally chapter. In terms of moving the plot forward in an enjoyable way, though, it was far less successful. Her chapters were often plodding, and you could easily cut out two or three of her ten without sacrificing anything of note.

It did pick up considerably as it went on, though. If you consider Dany and Barristan together (as the Meereen reporters, if you will), their last seven chapters were all very enjoyable and gave the Essos side of the book a kick it could have used about 300 pages earlier.

I've definitely reconsidered my predictions for Dany's future based on the pacing of this book, and I can certainly understand why the majority of the readership like her less than they did before, but hey. At least no one is gonna be calling her a Mary Sue anymore.

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And if you don't know, now you know.

Theon: 9.5/10

I've gone over most of this already, I think. But to sum up, Theon's chapters had not only the best writing in the novel but arguably the entire series and single-handedly turned a guy I appreciated but mildly disliked into a potential top five character in less than 100 pages. Oh, and he got some of the most subtle and lovely closure in the novel.

What more could you possibly want?

Davos | Bran: 8.5/10 | 8/10

Grouping these two together since I can't really say anything more than I did at the halfway point, when their arcs had already finished. Two great sets of chapters, promising loads but guaranteeing very little, that ended sadly early. Book would have been significantly worse without their inclusion.

Quentyn: 7/10

You know something? I quite liked Q-Dawg. He was pretty much a total dork, but out of a mixture of bravery, desperation and blind faith he hatched probably the most ludicrous and audacious plan anyone in the series has come up with yet, and kinda nearly almost succeeded.

...Okay, so he completely and utterly failed. But so what? Guy still got closer to Dany than any of her four thousand other suitors. You could argue his arc was pointless, but unless you'd rather his character didn't exist whatsoever each of his chapters was important in his development. He only had four for god's sake, and he gets roasted by a dragon in the last one. Cut the dude some slack, yo.

Jon Connington: 8.5/10

I love this guy and I genuinely hope he has substantially more chapters in the next book. He sure as hell has reason to. Even if I don't care for the man himself a great deal, my opinion on the Aegon twist has completely 180'd, and I'm glad that Martin introduced a worthy narrator for such a dramatic development in the story.

Full marks so far.

Asha: 4/10

What happened, darling? You used to be interesting! Admittedly Stannis is probably more interesting, but he was hardly in your chapters and random knights in his camp are certainly not. This score is probably artificially low since none of her chapters were actually bad, but I really don't like how her viewpoint was used in this book. When Asha Greyjoy gets upstaged by that goddamn goofy Braavosi banker you know there's something odd going on.

AFFC Catch-up chapters: 7.5/10

These basically did exactly what you'd expect them to, and very little more. All of them could have conceivably fitted into Feast, which I guess was sorta the point, but all of Jamie, Cersei, Arya, Areo and Victarion's chapters were good, and set up their next true plot arcs well. Which doesn't make them hugely exciting to write about, but their inclusion was good nonetheless!

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And if you don't know, now you know.

Overall thoughts:

In all honesty, part of the reason that I didn't rush to talk about the book here when I finished it was because it left me feeling extremely conflicted. I swung between thinking it was nearly everything I could have wanted, and feeling immensely let down. My feelings have largely settled now, though, and I feel safe in declaring my opinion on A Dance with Dragons.

It's a really good book.

It's certainly not the book I was expecting, pacing-wise; my mental prediction for the book involved Dany meeting up with all her suitors, seeing a few KNOTS being untangled, and her setting off homeward with her choice of Westerosi by the end. So, it's safe to say I've had to make some re-adjustments. But I'll get into that later.

Writing wise, the book was sharp. I still think Feast is the best written book in the series on the whole, but some of the prose here is as good as any I've read from Martin. In fact, there was probably more plotless meandering in this book than any other in the series, so the fact it holds up as well as it does is testament to that. His ability to turn characters inside out and detail high drama is clearly undiminished, though his tendency to repeat phrases as useless as nipples on a serjeant's breastplate did seem more distracting than ever before. But then words are wind, after all.

Given that Feast and Dance theoretically jointly represent the fourth book in a six book series, I think Martin is still on track plot-wise. The last two books are gonna have to be both faster paced and monolithic, though - even assuming my reconfigured prediction is right and Dany doesn't leave Slavers Bay 'til the end of book six and her only role in Westeros is that of saving the realm from the Others with DRAGONFIRE, there's still a ****ton to get through on all sides. The casualty rate is gonna have to increase, and I can't see any way that every living POV character will be kept on; with the scope converging to some extent they hopefully won't all be needed, and in any case I don't see them all fitting in one book. The confirmation of Damphair chapters in TWoW does scare me ever-so-slightly in that regard - I quite like Aeron, but he's one character whose starring role I had assumed was over.

Given that Dance is a middle book in a fantasy series, though, there's always gonna be some issues. I can't disagree about there being a lack of a climax compared to the previous books in the series, and that really does hold the book back. A lot of people referred to Feast disparagingly as "half a book," but for all it missed out a host of valuable characters it felt very whole to me. Its end, while not explosive, felt conclusive. If Feast is half a book in theory and a full book in practice, however, Dance is a full book in theory and a book and a half in practice. The continuation of the timeline beyond Feast works reasonably well for the characters involved in both books, but it leaves the Dance-only characters with half-finished plotlines and a serious lack of closure. And quite why the likes of Sansa, Davos and Bran are left voiceless when everyone else returns is never really explained.

But the burning question for some might just be how I would rank it. Well, it's quite difficult. I find that my opinions of the books vary drastically on a re-read, and so I don't find it fair to compare a once-read Dance to a twice-read Feast. What I can do, however, is rank them in how I felt about them all on first read. Which looks like this:

Storm > Game > Dance ~ Clash > Feast.

As I've mentioned repeatedly throughout this topic, my appreciate for AFFC in particular rose dramatically second time around. It might follow that ADWD would be similar, but who knows. I'm not gonna speculate.

In any case, thanks for following this topic! I hope I haven't taken too long and, now that I'm finally done, there's still stuff worth discussing.

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And if you don't know, now you know.

Heh, while reading through I didn't really have as much of a problem with the "lack of interesting things happening" in the Dany and Tyrion chapters like you did, I thought they were great to read.... But I think I'm a bit more annoyed at the total lack of payoff from those chapters by the end. It's like, it was all a waste of time!



I'm actually unhappy about what happened with Jon Snow most of all. He's right, damnit, these idiots are going to doom the entire kingdom! All his planning, all his preperations, all those tough decisions he made.... seem to be for nothing.


I really wonder what will happen. Will the Night's Watch fight the wildlings (and get slaughtered?) It seems the Queen was involved in this little uprising... but Stannis seemed to really like Jon, I can't imagine he'll be happy about hearing about all of this.

And concerning Jon himself... Is he going to be dead? I can't imagine GRRM went all Sean Bean on him....not after all this time! Maybe he'll rise as a zombie... or maybe that Melisandre can heal wounds like Moqorro.

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The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG

From what I've read it's heavily implied Jon isn't gone for good. Mel mentions early on that she's seen him in her flames as "a man then a wolf then a man," which ties into Varamyr's prologue and suggests he'll live as Ghost for a while then be resurrected. The manner of his death strongly hints that he's Azor Ahai too, what with the bleeding star, smoke and salt (Marsh's tears) all being present. The obvious next step would involve Mel realizing Jon is really AA, resurrecting him and then sacrificing herself to activate Lightbringer. But that's assuming no twists, and that would be naive in the extreme.

And his planning wasn't all for nothing by any means. He got most of the wildlings south of the wall, and unless Marsh and co plan to trebuchet them back over somehow that's not gonna change. His arrangement with the Iron Bank for food supplies will stand too, as will the newly refurbished castles, so the NW is certainly much better equipped for the upcoming war than it was one book ago.

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And if you don't know, now you know.

Tyrion: Penny sucks, no resolution, should have half as many chapters.

Jon: Enjoyed Jon (though perhaps he could be trimmed down a bit), but some of his actions at the end seem a bit weird. I'll wait til next book for full judgment.

Daenerys: Too many chapters. Would be better if it were fewer. Got some character development but I didn't feel it was that well done. I could write 1000 pages on one character and have them develop, but as much as I love character development, it needs to accompany character's doing/seeing/thinking things that are worth reading.

Barristan: Barristan the BAMF.

Theon: Great.

Davos/Bran: Agreed, too short. Loved what they had for both though. Wish there was more.

Quentyn: Quentyn would be forgiveable if this were a better book (put it in storms for example). Or a shorter book. But with all the fluff, it contributed to this book's issues with editing. Without other stuff in there, it did feel pretty pointless and his development wasn't too special.

Jon Connington: You're wearing gloves all the time, WHY NOT CUT OFF THE FINGER TIPS. AT LEAST TRY.

Asha: Actually liked her more here because I cared about what was going on. Never gave much of a **** about Iron Islands with all those underdeveloped PoV chars.

Jaime chapter should not be in there, that was frustrating as balls. Cersei's were okay. Areo's was good. Victarion I actually liked now that he's a cackling madman.

GRRManderly: Best new character.

OVERALL:
I feel the biggest issue here is editing. The editor needed to say "Okay, cut out some of this fat in the Tyrion/Dany chapters, maybe a bit of Jon too". Instead, the editor cut out a final Theon chapter. Even GRRM said he's unhappy with how little resolution there was and how it was JUST cliffhangers. I wish GRRM would leak that chapter. No matter what the resolution was, I think I'd like it more.

Also, I can't give much of a **** about Slaver's Bay. It just isn't nearly as compelling. Possibly because most of our point of view is Daenerys' bull, but still... The entire North-half of the book was great, the Essos half of the book was pretty disappointing.

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"nah, it's not my team if I drop pitchers for merely being horrible" -War13104

You could argue his arc was pointless, but unless you'd rather his character didn't exist whatsoever each of his chapters was important in his development.

Yep, completely deleting him from the series would be a nice improvement.

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All the stars in the sky are waiting for you.

I really can't agree. As I said, the guy only had four chapters, and the last of those even his haters should presumably have enjoyed (if only for reasons of pure schadenfreude). So you're whinging about three chapters, which have numerous indirect benefits:

- Meereen gets a lot more interesting when he arrives if only because Dany and Barristan start to talk more about Westeros and less about REZNAK MO REZNAK and such.
- He gives us our first view into Volantis, which I personally found really quite cool.
- If he doesn't exist, Doran Martell becomes a much less interesting character.

I'm not gonna call his arc a highlight or claim GRRM couldn't have utilized his character better, but I think the Quentyn hate is a bit silly.

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And if you don't know, now you know.

I thought the book was great. I hope you're opinions of Jon and Mel are right.

I hate to see him go in that fashion after putting so much hard work into building the wall's defenses. And godammit, when is a Stark finally gonna be reunited with another Stark? I at least want Jon to rediscover Arya before this is all over. That HAS to happen. Actually, for that reason, I do not believe Jon will die.

Azhor Ahhai is Dany. That's a certainty. Not Jon. But I do hope Jon lives on through his wolf.

Also, I'm calling this now: before the end of this series Bran WILL control one of those dragons through skin changing. He wasn't told he would fly just so he could be a crow.

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People do not care how much you know until they know how much you care.

It'd be great if we could see Sansa/Bran/Arya team up and start taking over King's Landing politically.

Azhor Ahhai is Dany. That's a certainty. Not Jon. But I do hope Jon lives on through his wolf.

The idea that some people have is that The Prince Who Was Promised and Azor reborn are two different people.

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All the stars in the sky are waiting for you.

Yeah, how are we absolutely certain that Dany is Azor?

I'm pretty sure nothing is certain in this book.

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The prophecy tells of Azor having dragons. I don't get the arguments saying it not being Dany. Mel saw her flames wrong is all read out of it. She took Dragonstone to be dragons.

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People do not care how much you know until they know how much you care.

"It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

Seriously...it's Dany. I mean come on.

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People do not care how much you know until they know how much you care.

By that logic it could be Victarion because he's ironborn and he lives by the sea and the sea has salt and that prophecy mentioned the word salt. Also smoke. On his hand! In fact I am now certain Victarion is Azor Ahai and you will never convince me otherwise. It is a certainty.

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The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG

It's almost like everybody repeatedly misinterprets prophecies in the book, I'm glad you are the ultimate arbiter of what must be true. Because the books are over and nothing more can happen and Jon can't wake dragons out of stone.

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Sack Up Or Shut Up™

You guys are being insolent. All of you know that Dany is the most likely AA just like me. Say 85% chance.

The only other person I could personally see it being would be Aegon. All those others are very farfetched.

Aegon might find dragons in Dragonstone and wake them. But still another dragon awakening would be dull. It took two books for these dragons to come of a riding age. I don't think 5 more or whatever are going to born in the second to last book (at least not until the very end of the book maybe like a cliffhanger). Even then there would be no more Red Star. Which rules Jon out too.

Dany is AA.

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People do not care how much you know until they know how much you care.

I love this series, but I'm not ready to crown it as anything, because as always, the ending is as important as the begining. Like someone said earlier, we don't need to be shown everything-inferences worked really well for the first three books. The books need to be tighter, and move more quickly. If the two final books are slow and terrible, and GRRM is like "oh i need to write 4 more", then clearly, he doesn't know what is going on. I hope that's not the case.

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Who says you're not perfect?
Who says you're not worth it?

Ser Patrek's symbol was a star, junk, and he was bleeding to death when Jon got killed.

Just saying.

p.s. please stop being an obstinate dick in my topic

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And if you don't know, now you know.

Ser Patrek was the bleeding star.

Also, you're interpreting that it literally has to be dragons from petrified eggs. It's just "waking dragons from stone". Yeah, it fits. But a lot of stuff has fit prophecies in these books.

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Giggsalot posted...
Ser Patrek's symbol was a star, junk, and he was bleeding to death when Jon got killed.

Hmm. I see. I see. Makes a bit more sense now. Didn't see he had a star symbol.

p.s. please stop being an obstinate dick in my topic

Child please, the only dick in this topic is Alec, who's puttin his nose all up in my craphole for havin an opinion that's well accepted.

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People do not care how much you know until they know how much you care.

Uh everyone knows Victarion is Azor Ahai, junk. It's accepted all over the internet, even my friend that hasn't read the books or even watched Game of Thrones knows that. It's, like, common knowledge.

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The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG

No one calls Victarion Greyjoy a fool and lives to boast of it.

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EndOfDiscOne

Pretty sure you started with the "Everybody else agrees on this there is no room for other opinions".

Either way, while it was close to the consensus theory before Dance, it is no longer a consensus theory.

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bumping this because i'm too lazy to archive all this for vince right now

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And if you don't know, now you know.