Topic does what it says in the title, basically. Got the book in today and I like to discuss stuff like this, so why not!
Gonna do this chapter-by-chapter initially, with maybe a little bit of broader rumination later on. Don't expect massive write-ups; I love discussion as much as the next guy but at least initially I'd rather spend my time reading the book than writing about it.
Obvious first point: NO SPOILERS PAST WHERE I AM IN THE NOVEL PLEASE. This will obviously open up with time, but I've managed to avoid spoilers so far so please err on the side of caution if need be.
Only other point of potential interest, going in: I really like A Feast for Crows. So if this book is similarly paced and has just a touch less aimlessness (as has been suggested), there's every chance I'll love it.
Currently three chapters in, so I'll catch up just now and then move on later.
Considering the dude just killed his father and lover, I'm glad to see Martin resisted the temptation to make Tyrion's return after eleven years a bonanza of wit and crazy antics. Ironically, though, his mental instability in this chapter (however realistic) definitely makes him a far less likable character. The "wherever whores go" repetition becomes a bit irritating after about the third time it's used, too.
The presence of Illyrio saves this chapter from disappointing, though. I've always liked the idea that he's one of the few top tier puppetmasters in Martin's world, and while that's laid on a bit thick at times (I certainly wasn't expecting Tyrion to be shoehorned towards Dany in the book's first chaper), the little things like his mushroom trickery easily made up for it. Hope he's still around in Tyrion's next chapter, he definitely needs some sort of foil in his current state.
Looks like Dany's ruling Meereen alright. I appreciate Martin had to scene set ahead of the arrival of half of Westeros and the Knot™ that they cause, but this was a little dull. Not Brienne dull, or anything, and certainly not aimless - it actually gave a far more thorough and wide-ranging picture of Dany's potential problems and governing style than I'd have expected from a single chapter. It just wasn't that fun to read.
It could very well be that this chapter was a bit of a necessary evil. Maybe it has foreshadowing out the ass, too. But for now, meh.
5/5: Among the best in the series (e.g. The Mountain vs. the Red Viper, The Princess in the Tower, etc). 4/5: Great stuff. The type of chapter I might re-read before moving on. 3/5: Solid chapter; most of each book is probably these. 2/5: Fairly mediocre fare; alright early in the novel but if these start showing up in the late-game we could have issues. 1/5: The rare chapters the books would actually be better without (e.g. Brienne's first four chapters in A Feast for Crows).
Prologue: Varamyr Sixskins
Brilliant start. Probably the least plot-advancing prologue in the series (I know Martin said he'd have chosen Pate's from AFFC for the prologue of a theoretical AFFC/ADWD monolith), but probably the best since Cressen's at getting inside a previously minor character's head while subtly introducing us to a largely unexplored concept for the series. Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't say Sixskins' partial death at the end of the prologue robs us of a potentially great POV character or anything like that, but that just makes him a perfect fit for prologue duty.
Having Jon's warging potential confirmed was also a nice touch, and (unlike parts of the next chapter) the namedrop never felt forced or unnecessary. And the writing is still great.
Do you mean character quality or prologue quality? The former I can understand ranking Chett the lowest, but that was one of the best prologues, if for nothing else than the ending.
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"One toot on this whistle will take you to a far away land." -Toad, SMB3
I may well be judging Chett's unfairly because of how good the rest of ASoS is, but what always stands out to me is that I can remember the other three (now four) prologues easily, yet I always have to look up ASoS to even remember what happened in that one.
Pate might have been a one-note character but at least his setting was new and interesting.
From: Giggsalot | #003 but probably the best since Cressen's at getting inside a previously minor character's head
Just noticed this. I don't recall Cressen being a character at all in GoT, or even mentioned. Unless you are counting that as getting inside Stannis' head by proxy, as he was the next best thing for that.
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"One toot on this whistle will take you to a far away land." -Toad, SMB3
Yeah, I'm pretty sure he wasn't. That was gonna be a clumsy sentence either way though; all I meant was that before their respective prologues we barely knew anything about Sixskins or Cressen. The fact we'd met Varamyr before doesn't really change much.
Of the three "main" characters of this novel, Tyrion is the only one who I would place among my favourite characters from the series. Dany has an odd tendency to fall into the background of her own chapters, and her only great post-Drogo moment in my eyes was the sacking of Astapor. Jon, meanwhile, is far more likable, but that in itself is a bit of a drawback; he's certainly had his fair share of traumas and conflicts over the course of the series, but by and large they've been the type of traumas and conflicts every generic fantasy hero goes through. Of course he's an enjoyable character - these cliches are cliches for a reason - but when I re-read the books recently I found that he stood out as the most archetypical of all the major characters.
That said, this was great. It's easy to draw parallels with the Dany chapter immediately preceding it, seeing as incredibly little actually happens in either (not to mention how similar their situations are), but the Wall is just a far more interesting place to be at this point in the story. Even putting aside Jon's wolf dream, which was as well written as ever here, Stannis and Melisandre are far more interesting characters than anyone Dany has in tow at the moment. To the point where a chapter essentially consisting of a barbed conversation can be riveting, humorous and intriguing all at once.
Plus, you know, Dolorous Edd.
4/5
As a sidenote, is it just me or is Martin's subtext a lot less... sub than normal in the opening parts of ADwD? I can understand the need to break in readers to some extent, but the near role call of recent happenings in Tyrion's chapter was weird and flat, and the exposition in Jon's wolf dream seemed much less implicit than in past examples. Oh well.
To continue on from my extended preamble last time, the continuation of Bran's story actually interested me more than that of any of the three main protagonists. That's probably just because his personal goal is that much more obvious and seemingly attainable, though - as far as I'm concerned another book of Bran not reaching the three-eyed crow would be borderline ridiculous, while Dany has enough else going on that her eventual invasion of Westeros can wait for at least a bit.
Anyway, this chapter was alright. Pretty much your average Bran chapter from the last few books with slightly raised stakes (it's really cold beyond the wall, yo) and more COLDHANDS. Which is never a bad thing.
Probability of the dude being Benjen Stark seems to be increasing with each chapter, too.
And yeah, I really like Stannis too. I don't support his cause by any means, and he's totally doomed - I'd be surprised if he even makes it out of this book alive, never mind the series - but he's really fun to read about. Has probably the most underrated sense of humor in the series.
I shall tag this. I dig your rating system. Also the line "it's really cold beyond the wall, yo" made me giggle for some reason. So far I'm more or less in agreement with you on the ratings.
Wasn't expecting to be back here so soon. For a series which has been criticized for becoming too out-of-control and sprawling, this could sure use some narrative diversity!
Not a huge amount to say about this one, really. It's good to see the Tyllirion exposition dream team is making forward progress, especially with this chapter presumably coming not long after the first chronologically, but they hardly seem to be sprinting to their destination either (robbing us of some potentially hilarious mental imagery as well as plot movement). Besides that, though, this is pretty much a Brienne chapter set in uncharted geographical territory and featuring far more interesting characters.
Which, in all honesty, is fine for now. (I like A Feast for Crows, remember!) But if Tyrion's fourth or fifth chapter is still like this...
Oh hey, there's that narrative diversity I was looking for!
In brief, things I liked about this chapter:
- Unlike some of AFfC's guest narrators - what up Victarion - Quentyn (henceforth Q-Dawg) actually seems to not only have a personality, but one that isn't a boring done-to-death-already archetype too! - That Q-Dawg is both noticeably ahead of Tyrion and taking a different route towards Dany. Which suggests that: a) even if this book remains mostly a travelogue we'll at least be seeing different parts of the world, and b) Martin isn't copping out and having everyone show up in the same Dany chapter and causing havoc. - That arguably the two most important members of Q-Dawg's retinue have already been violently murdered offscreen. Sets the scene really well. - For the first time, the scale of Martin's restructuring is becoming apparent. Given that this presumably happens early in the AFfC Dorne plotline, there's no way this chapter could have existed in a combined book without deceiving the reader or completely ruining all suspense in the Dornish section.
Things I didn't like about this chapter:
- That it's the fourth chapter in the first six that is focused almost entirely on travelling. Tiresome.
This was a weird one. The first ten pages or so of this chapter were not only dull, they were legitimately pointless - half of it was Sam's first AFfC chapter with an Ender's Shadow-style switch of perspective, and everything else was boring and worryingly "filler"-like. You could potentially argue that some of these events were more interesting seen from Jon's perspective, but in any case retaining both was completely unnecessary for everyone other than obsessives trying to map out a cross-book chronology.
The last third or so, though, was fantastic. Easily the best character moment of the book so far, and potentially my favourite Jon moment ever. On a personal level it's nice to see Janos go down so pitifully, too.
So, uh, very mixed feelings about this one. Hopefully it'll act as a mini-turning point and things will start actually happening from here on.
I actually liked seeing these event's through Jon's eyes. When we started going through that dialog my initial thought was "Am I really reading this again?" But I found myself really enjoying how the conversation turned out.
Then the end. My god. When Jon said "I will not hang him." I shouted at my book "No!" Then he asked for a block and unsheathed Longclaw and I was practically cheering. Totally awesome moment. Even if the R+L=J theory is correct this moment shows he is truly Ned's son. Jon Snow has always been one of my favorite characters and I'm thinking if his reign as Lord Commander keeps going the way it currently is he just might take the cake.
Don't feel as though I have much to say about this for obvious reasons. If they belonged to any other character, Tyrion's chapters thus far would be a bit dry, but assuming that his prominence in the novel continues (and I can't see why it wouldn't) it's good that he's making clear progress this early on, even if it's not the most exciting to read about. At this rate I'd speculate that he makes it to Dany in four or five chapters time, and given that Quentyn seems to be ahead of him that would suggest the Dany plotline will get interesting sooner rather than later. Especially considering that Marwyn and Victarion are in the mix too, and both presumably get to Meereen at some point in the book.
As for the chapter itself, Griff is clearly an important dude, probably from recent Westerosi history. Given Tyrion's insight in other areas I'm almost surprised he didn't recognise him straight away, though I guess that would ruin any sort of eventual reveal. Intriguing stuff in any case.
3/5
Sidenote: While I can't imagine you guys would feel like I'm rushing through ADwD, I think I might slow my pace a touch. I've spent most of my free time yesterday and today reading it and commenting on it here, and I'm not sure it's the sort of book that benefits from such a focused effort. I only really enjoyed A Feast for Crows so much on my recent re-read because I embraced its slowness and took it in at a similar pace. You could of course argue that's what re-reads are for, but I'd rather take it slowly and come out with a positive impression than rush through it and feel disappointed.
I dunno, we'll see. I'm off to read about Davos, so I'm probably too weak to put it into practice anyway.
Just read chapter 7 myself, uh...that's a badass chapter. Jon becoming a leader is excellent.
I couldn't be happier with the book right now. Of course there's gonna be a slow start. Martin's last book was 6 years ago. He needs time to rebuff his characters. I don't mind the inter lapping stories from different vantage points. At least I don't have to read about the god damn Iron Islands, Brienne, or Dorne.
Instead...wooo, my four favorite characters! (Jon, Dany, Bran, Tyrion)
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Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first woman she meets and then teams up with three complete strangers to kill again. Wonderful movie.
It might just be that Davos Seaworth is probably the most god damn likable person in the entirety of the Seven Kingdoms, but I loved this chapter. The writing was brilliantly evocative, the dialogue was great, and the exposition, while hardly earth-shattering, set up the rest of his storyline superbly.
Given that this is Martin we're dealing with I can't imagine everything will turn out quite as expected, but if Davos is unknowingly marching to his death at White Harbor I'm gonna be absolutely crushed. I can only hope the throwaway mention of Wyman Manderly's nobility is foreshadowing, 'cos to say dude just became a really important character would be an understatement.
Man, I really don't get that hatred. Sure, I can understand that not everyone will jump wholeheartedly into chapters narrated by nobodies like AERON DAMPHAIR or AREO HOTAH, but I always took the Dorne and Iron Islands plotlines as sort of one POV each, with switching narrators. And in any case, they're some of the more plot-heavy parts of the book!
It's the early Samwell and Brienne chapters that really bring down A Feast for Crows in my eyes.
More scene-setting. Quality scene-setting, of course, and the presence of Jon, Stannis and Melisandre almost ensures that it's a chapter is at least pretty good.
Which is what this one is. I'd just like something to happen soon.
Much better chapter than her first, even if not a great deal more actually happened. Getting definite signs that Meereen has a lot going on even before the Westerosi ambush, and the casual revelation that Drogon has vanished was a bit of a minor "whoa" moment. Chapter felt a bit like the end of a "first act," in a way, with intrigue (if not action) really beginning to build, and the reintroduction of Theon next up. Things are looking good!
3/5
Sidenote: "Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon."
The kraken, lion, griffin and sun's son are obviously Victarion, Tyrion, "Griff" and Quentyn respectively, but the rest are eluding me. One of the other "others" is presumably Marwyn, though beyond that I'm a bit clueless. The "pale mare" in particular is someone whom I can only assume has yet to be introduced.
Any non-spoiler informed suggestions for the animals that are eluding me?
Dear me. And I thought Brienne's penultimate chapter in AFfC was brutal. I'd like to think that this is a scene-setter for some redemption on Theon's part, though - this was a brilliantly harrowing one-off but if his subsequent chapters are equally torture porn-tinged the novelty might wear off. Kudos to Martin though, I can't imagine even the most partisan Theon-hater would wish that on him.
4/5
Chapter 13: Bran (II)
On the one hand, for a chapter that has been built to for basically the entire series this was ever-so-slightly anticlimactic. The wight attack seemed a little contrived, as if their journey needed some sort of "final boss" to overcome, and if Coldhands doesn't re-appear then the mystery around him will have been for very little too. In spite of all that, though, this was one of the better chapters so far - the little moments, like Bran wondering how Meera would react if he told her he loved her, were often really touching. What happens now with Bran is actually pretty interesting; he's been the most predictable POV for like two and a half books, but I have absolutely no idea where he goes from here. Hype!
3.5/5
Chapter 14: Tyrion (IV)
Tyrion trundles Eastward some more. Not revealing the "secret" he presumably won was clever writing, if a touch cruel, and the implications of his "birth of kings" line are potentially huge. If only I had any idea what he was talking about. Solid stuff as ever.
3/5
Chapter 15: Davos (II)
Uh oh. My faith that everything is gonna work out all nice for Davos took a battering in this chapter. I'm not sure anyone in the series has knowingly served their life up on a platter as blatantly as he seems to be doing here, so there's still every chance Martin will subvert the momentum in time. Especially since his physical description of Wyman Manderly fits GRRM himself better than anyone else in the series thus far. He can't make the guy that much of a dick, surely?
3.5/5
Chapter 16: Daenerys (III)
Martin's willingness to move the Dany plotline at such a glacial pace, despite all the mounting tension and promise of mayhem, is almost endearing. The funny part is that it's probably not any slower than in the first few novels, it's just that our expectations of STUFF HAPPENING have finally reached a pinnacle.
I usually do them in bunches of at least two or three, once my enthusiasm to immediately read on has faded.
And it makes more sense with these novels than most, given the structure; various simultaneous but generally unrelated plot strands are narrated alternatingly by different characters (as the chapter "titles" suggest). So it's not like reading one more chapter would give any more insight into what I just read.
You don't seem to be loving Bran's chapters as much as most do. I thought Bran II was the best chapter in the book up to that point and I think a lot of others felt the same way.
Haha, Jon II is where my opinion on him basically turned around. Before that, I never really saw the hype around him. I generally viewed The Wall as a much, much more boring plotline than the wars in the Seven Kingdoms, and was thrilled when Stannis turned up there because I felt The Wall became a lot more interesting then. Even then though, I kind of figured I'd view Jon like I did Catelyn - just a way to watch what Stannis was doing since Davos wasn't with him. But starting from there, my opinion on Jon just kept rising.
-- xp1337: Don't you wish there was a spell-checker that told you when you a word out? GotD (219/384) Melee v FFX
From: Giggsalot | #039 Uh oh. My faith that everything is gonna work out all nice for Davos took a battering in this chapter.
I'll of course avoid spoilers (and I'm not that much farther ahead), but my opinion at this point was the same as my opinion when we heard about Davos in AFFC. I still figured he isn't going to announce "off-screen" how a major character dies and then actually have him die that way when we get around to seeing what really happened.
Besides, everything backfires on Cersei when she has actual power. It's like a rule.
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"One toot on this whistle will take you to a far away land." -Toad, SMB3
I don't think I'd like Stannis nearly as much as I do if he were actually a skilled military leader. His constant failure is almost charming. I'm therefore really glad to see him getting involved with the war again, even if it may well be to his doom. I still can't see him living much longer - he's a jaded remnant of an act of ASoIaF that has almost entirely passed - but I do hope he goes out in a notable (if not glorious) fashion.
The idea of Melisandre on the Wall without Stannis is intriguing too.
3.5/5
Chapter 18: Tyrion (V)
Whoa. I know there have been "Aegon is alive" theorists for years, but the only thing their hypotheses seemed to have in common was a marked lack of any sort of clear evidence. I still don't buy that there isn't at least one more level of trickery going on here - either the Griffs deliberately took such seemingly poor precautions to throw Tyrion off the (as yet unexplained) trail of their true identity, or the boy has been lead to believe he is a person he isn't. In either case, though, I can't work out who the hell they actually are, nor what the deception would actually accomplish. It just strikes me as too poorly foreshadowed and, on a shallower note, too early in the goddamn book for such a revelation to take it at face value. Fascinating stuff regardless, though.
The writing in this chapter was fantastic too, from the descriptions of the hazy sunken ruins to the fantastic final paragraph where Tyrion describes himself as a "revenant" of his past self.
On a re-read, once I can spot stuff like foreshadowing, I feel like this could become one of my favourite chapters in the series. For now though, it's merely excellent.
4/5
Chapter 19: Davos (III)
In which Davos pleads his case to the Manderlys. Nothing much happened here that couldn't have been predicted, besides inaugural in-the-flesh appearance of the ludicrously named Rhaegar Frey and his family's fantastically outlandish retelling of the Red Wedding, but it was riveting in any case.
I'm not sure why, considering he's just been effectively sentenced to death, but I'm a touch more optimistic as to Davos' future than I was at the end of his last chapter. Having met the man for the first time, I could certainly imagine Wyman Manderly telling Kings Landing that the execution went smoothly even if Davos got busted out by that rebellious granddaughter or something. He might even be pulling a Doran Martell on the Freys.
From: Sirusavath | #029 Then the end. My god. When Jon said "I will not hang him." I shouted at my book "No!" Then he asked for a block and unsheathed Longclaw and I was practically cheering. Totally awesome moment. Even if the R+L=J theory is correct this moment shows he is truly Ned's son. Jon Snow has always been one of my favorite characters and I'm thinking if his reign as Lord Commander keeps going the way it currently is he just might take the cake.
I actually thought the same thing as when Robb decided to hang Karstark. "Use a damn sword and do it yourself damnit"
I haven't read them, Alec, but from sporadically browsing the Westeros forums over the last year or so I have a rough idea what they're about. You happen to know if they're available online anywhere? I'll check out synopses somewhere if they're not.