I was browsing the Catherine message boards, and happened upon a topic all too familiar...
"The female voices are terrible."
This was in reference to the demo which showed off the English dub of the game. Featured in the game are Laura Bailey, Michelle Ruff, Troy Baker, Yuri Lowenthal, and countless other voice actors who lend their voices to countless anime and Japanese based videogames. There was an insinuation that without subbed audio, the game wouldn't sell enough to be profitable. This leads to the overall "dub/sub" argument that has hounded this industry (and ONLY this industry) for what seems forever. I say only because I've never heard people clamor for Seth McFarlane's head or claim that the old school Disney/Looney Toons actors sucked balls. Nor do I hear anyone ever say "so and so Japanese actor sucks." Only dub actors get said treatment, and I cannot gauge why. Part of it is due to being in (the apparent) minority of dub fans. The other is due to the bigger issue: zero accountability.
I called out the topic creator for justification as to why Bailey and Ruff are "terrible." As of yet, there's no response. I never do see answers. All I hear from others are phrases like "mediocre dub," or "SUBS ARE BETTER!" That would be fine if people actually stated what makes dubbing such a crime in their eyes (or ears). Here's a simple checklist to facilitate accountability.
1. The actors' voices are the problem.
I would have no problem if anyone stated "this person has a voice I can't stand." I myself can't stand Karen Strassman (with exception to some roles) or Aaron Dismuke, but at least I refrence them by name (or by role). However, the overarching sentiment is that "the dub as a whole" is the issue. If one person's voice is the issue, why should that ruin what could be a stellar performance by someone else? Otherwise, could it be a particular style that actor is fond of using? Laura Bailey for example has three voice tendencies, low and evil (Lust from FMA/CoD from Dissidia), timid or stoic (Henrietta from Gunslinger Girl), and hyper (Rise from P4, Catherine). Do you hate one style, but like another? As I stated before, no one takes those into account.
2. The director/casting was at fault
Actors are told exactly how to say lines and do them multiple takes. Perhaps the director was an idiot and didn't piece together the best takes to fit the subject matter. It could be they chose the wrong people for the wrong roles. One instance was Love Hina. Quality voice actors left and right, but so horribly miscast, I could only cringe.
3. Japanese actors did the voices first, so they did them right the first time
What percentage of fans actually know Japanese, much less know how they are acting? I don't know either. There seems to be this idolatry of the Japanese audio as if it can't be beat. I highly doubt the hundreds of posters in the corners of the internet causing this mess all know every nuance of acting and every cultural nook and cranny of Japan.
All I'm doing is opening people's eyes to the zero accountability shown by posters. Given the internet, it's nothing new. Why is there such fervor on one side (subbers), while dub fans rarely or never seem to go ape****? I'm certain there are instances, but the majority of topics are like what I described. I get the sense even if DA is implemented in everything, someone will still complain. After, if ther is one rule on the internet, it's this:
"You don't like what I like, so **** YOU!"
--
"Should I slice off your tongue or break your countless bones? Either way, I get paid; you'll bleed to death and die alone." - Blood Money
You raised some quality points and I've had a few nightmares in the past concerning getting attacked by rabid and obsessive fans who hate my dubs for things.
-- Sir Chris Police ~Ace Detective in Homicide~ http://img.imgcake.com/Jeffzeropngus.png "Thanks Punny!"
Given my experience at cons, most of the fans actually appreciate the work (otherwise, they wouldn't be there). I will admit to some people getting mobbed, but that has dialed down.
--
"Should I slice off your tongue or break your countless bones? Either way, I get paid; you'll bleed to death and die alone." - Blood Money
I think your second point is my biggest pet peeve in voice acting debates, and two example come to mind immediately; Mela Lee's role in Persona 3 and the laughing scene in Final Fantasy X.
-- I like how each new topic you make reveals such varied facets of your idiocy. - foolmo Now this is entertainment!
Given who was cast in Persona, Mela was a shining example of "average" at best. I dobut anyone could get through a Fuuka/Natsuki scene without wishing for to skip it. After all, those were one of those times I said I hated Strassman's voice.
--
"Should I slice off your tongue or break your countless bones? Either way, I get paid; you'll bleed to death and die alone." - Blood Money
She's given a lot of crap for her performance when it's in all likelihood the voice director's fault for trying to get Lee to match her Japanese voice. Lee is far from a bad voice actor. Just to use a modern example, any BlazBlue player would know how talented she is.
To go a bit off topic, I think that Persona 3's dub was good, but pales in comparison to Persona 4's.
-- I like how each new topic you make reveals such varied facets of your idiocy. - foolmo Now this is entertainment!
That's the crux of my problem. Too often, instead of stating "someone had a bad role," people will label the entire game or anime as a "bad dub" and call it a day.
--
"Should I slice off your tongue or break your countless bones? Either way, I get paid; you'll bleed to death and die alone." - Blood Money
My problem with (some, not all) dubs usually stems from two things:
1) The English VAs often don't put nearly as much emotion into their voices as the Japanese ones. This may be my personal penchant for melodrama coming to the fore, but usually it seems like the Japanese VAs will take things to a higher level than the English ones. Whether this is the fault of the actors themselves or the directors or what I dunno, I don't really know that much about the process, but it bugs me.
2) If I've already experienced the Japanese voices, it'll often bug me if the English dialogue doesn't follow the same pacing and inflection. This is probably more my problem than their problem, and could very well be a "they changed it now it sucks" effect, but it still bothers me. I know it's impossible to get exactly the same due to the differences between spoken Japanese and spoken English, but still. Bugs me.
I don't see that problem usually, at least when it comes to a single bad performance. It's more of an issue when it comes to the voice actors themselves. Like, I've never seen anyone trash talk the entire dub of Persona 3 because of Fuuka or what have you, but I've seen tons of people give Lee hell for a bad performance.
-- I like how each new topic you make reveals such varied facets of your idiocy. - foolmo Now this is entertainment!
I think it's the lack of lip syncing for me. I'm used to all my english speaking video games being either perfectly synced, or at least like not synced to any language.
The semi-synced lip flapping for anime just looks jarring with english voices most of the time.
That, and I prefer original audio for any foreign work if I can.
I'm calling them on their bull**** to see if they can back it up. If they put forth a good defense, more power to them. I want to wade through that sea of idiocy to see if there is any merit to what I feel is "blind hatred."
--
"Should I slice off your tongue or break your countless bones? Either way, I get paid; you'll bleed to death and die alone." - Blood Money
From: LeonhartFour | #057 So you're saying if the game gets the syncing down, then it's fine?
What about games that are done in English first, like Uncharted?
Games with Western development teams, like Uncharted, Mass Effect, etc, normally have good voice work (well, at least compared to games that are ported from Japanese games). Also, games with kind of good american divisions (maybe NIS?) also tend to have decent VA. But, a lot of it has to do with the Western developers actually look for talent while the Japanese ones just want to make more money.
I tend to prefer subs but there are definitely cases where the japanese VA is inferior or even pretty terrible, DBZ is a great example with nearly the entire cast.
and in video games...I don't think anyone is clamoring for snake's japanese actor to replace david hayter
I watch a lot of dubs, basically unless they have serious issues (like 4kids One Piece). A lot of the times I don't notice anything wrong with "bad dubs". That said, there are a couple times where I don't like the person's voice or don't think it really fits.
My bigger problems are the guys who seem to be in anything and every time I hear them I just imagine another character and it takes me out of the scene. Biggest problem for me in this is when Edward Elric;s VA is in something cause he always sounds the same.
-- (Maniac64 at work) [Browncoat] ~Board 570901~ All the proteins, vitamins, and carbs of your grandma's best turkey dinner, plus 15% alcohol.
Liquid Wind posted... I tend to prefer subs but there are definitely cases where the japanese VA is inferior or even pretty terrible, DBZ is a great example with nearly the entire cast.
For movies, I will always prefer the original languages over any sort of dub. I can't think of a situation where it would ever be as good, or better, than the voices coming from the actors. I don't understand the point of 'dubbing' in those cases.
For games, it doesn't bother me which language, English or Japanese, provided the voice work is quality. In something like Yakuza, it's nice to have the original Japanese actors and subtitles, because it better fits the setting, and even adds to it - also more cost effective to localize. In a random fantasy RPG, like Final Fantasy, I can take either one. Bad voice acting is usually, though not always, a result of poorly translation / bad writing. Sometimes there's not much that can be done because the original Japanese is also bad, but then you get cases where someone just went with a direct translation of the Japanese, not considering that it's a different audience, and you end up with something that sounds stilted and awkward in English.
I'd also agree about lip synching. That's pretty distracting to see nowadays, though it's improved a lot since the early 2000s. SE is usually pretty good about that stuff, at least.
I'll agree that I typically like Subs better. It's usually the case the Japanese is a much more emotional language, and a lot more of the context comes from their inflection, something that really isn't easily matched by English voices.
That said, I've never refused to watch something just because it was dubbed, even terrible dubbings like Goeman. And I do indeed sometimes prefer dubs even over the original voices when it's done well, one particular example being Full Metal Alchemist.
-- "I can already feel my Dumey Lust kicking in."-MistBiomeZ
From: Liquid Wind | #031 *listens to goku and vegeta's japanese voices*
nope! original VA was pretty terrible.
You have things mixed up, the actual acting in the Japanese is far better than the dub, but the voices themselves are far better in the dub. Sean Schemmel is a lot better in Kai acting wise compared to his first run through of the series.
I think a lot of people get this mixed up in debates like this, there is a difference between the actual acting and the voices they use. Laura Bailey for instance is a very good at acting in her own right, but she uses the same voice 90% of the time. When she is very capable of changing it up.
the vocal timbre is a legitimate part of it, half the reason david hayter is so loved is because he has THAT voice, not just because he can read lines effectively. maybe snakes japanese actor conveys emotion better? I don't know, I haven't heard enough of it, but I have to say hayters voice fits the character better
I personally prefer subtitles for anime, but there are some cases where the dub voice is better (usually if I heard the dub first >.>;) As for video games, well... I don't think I've ever played an undub.
--
"God Hand is the ultimate expression of the joy of humanity, specifically the punching part of the joy of humanity."-Shigeru Miyamoto