Board 8 > huh, eiji aonuma hated zelda...

(+) Yeah! (+)

Yeah, totally agree with that. "Opening" up the dungeons in modern Zelda games would go a long way to making them more enjoyable, more of a challenge to through, and something you look forward to doing. I think making the puzzles more organic, something that you can come at from different angles and with different solutions, would help, too. But yeah, you're dead on about the "enter room, light some torches, get key, unlock next room, push some blocks, get key, next room, repeat." That's a big part of why I feel like the puzzles are pretty mundane overall. There isn't much creativity happening with them.

--
peace comes from within

I think I would be ok with block/torch puzzles being done away with for awhile

and when I say, "for awhile" I mean forever.

--
It will launch for $350 with some Wii Sports s***. I bet my life on it. Damn, that KoolAid guy is awesome - NGamer64

What an awful topic.

And the original LoZ is grueling.

--
Gamertag: OgnarPliskin
http://www.gamerhandles.com/sig/Durango.jpg

Were there even many block and torch puzzles in Twilight Princess? I can't remember many and actually remember the dungeons being well designed both organically and with regards to puzzles. You guys should make up your minds about what to hate before Zelda wins ten consecutive contests in retaliation.

--
Yoblazer: http://8board.webs.com/ariel.jpg
Watch and you'll see... someday I'll be... part of your world!

PartOfYourWorld posted...
If you guys don't need to think for most Zelda dungeons (the recent ones included), you're probably just a lot sharper than the average person. I and many others find the dungeons quite puzzling. I still remember my first Twilight Princess run - it took me 43-44 hours to beat the game and another dozen or so to 100% it. These are pretty average first run times. However, for a quick or smart person, it can vary a lot. I remember red13n saying he beat the game in around 21 hours, which I considered inconceivable back then, but heck, the world record is under 4 hours.

Really? I would think that anyone familiar with the series would become accustomed to how the puzzles work. I don't think it's a matter of being smarter, just knowing how Zelda operates. It doesn't do much between each game to make you rethink how you approach a room, or a puzzle, or a boss. It's very formulaic in that regard.

--
peace comes from within

I dunno man, I remember reading topics on the TP board about first run completion times, and the average was around 40 hours. And these are fans who have GameFAQs accounts and post on the TP board. Do you remember your playthrough time?

--
Yoblazer: http://i32.tinypic.com/zlf1w7.gif
Watch and you'll see... someday I'll be... part of your world!

ZFS | Posted 9/9/2011 8:03:39 PM | message detail | quote
"enter room, light some torches, get key, unlock next room, push some blocks, get key, next room, repeat."

Yeah, this pretty much exactly describes the direction I feel Zelda dungeons take nowadays, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed it's a problem.

I'd love to see dungeon design opened up more in Zelda games. Probably my favorite dungeon in the whole series is LA's Turtle Rock - as soon as you enter the dungeon you have three different ways to go, and from there on there's multiple paths that wind throughout the whole dungeon. There are one or two of the "set piece" type puzzles where you have to push a block over some gaps to make a chest appear, but other than that the dungeon never has you stop in a room, solve a puzzle, get a key, move onto the next room, repeat. Progress in the dungeon is made instead by figuring out where the hell everything is, and it's a clever, if somewhat cruelly designed dungeon in that regard, but it means that there is no one way to arrive at the solution. There's tons of different ways to explore the dungeon. There are lots of rooms that don't even serve a particular purpose and don't need to be entered at all, and if you know what to do in the dungeon it can be beaten in a few short minutes even though it's one of the series' most expansive dungeons. But someone stumbling upon the dungeon for the first time will spend a lot more time in it than that. That's what makes it great.

TP had a few nice dungeon designs -- Snow Mansion, City in the Sky -- that were fairly unique and interesting, but on the whole, I wasn't impressed by them. I do think their design was better than WW or OoT, but Nintendo could stand to go much further in changing them up.

I dunno why completion time matters, but I think mine was 30 hours at the end? Something like that. I don't think that's indicative of good puzzles, though. It's more about having to sit through that long story, and then doing quests and exploring that doesn't involve immediately pushing the main story forward. I spent time with some sidequests, I did that fishing mini-game for a while, I explored some of those hidden areas.

--
peace comes from within

I thought TP did a great job with its dungeons. Each one was different and showcased a (usually) unique puzzle mechanic. The Goron Mines had fun arrow play (far from "push block, light torch") and the iron boots/magnets gravity shift. Lakebed Temple had the massive central room with the rotating stairs. Arbiter's Grounds had you tracking down the Poes before acquiring the spinner, at which point it became one of the funnest levels ever. Snowpeak had the cannonballs and cannons and wrecking **** with your ball and chain. City in the Sky had Link going all spidey with the double clawshots. Even the Temple of Time and Palace of Twilight, which both sucked, at least featured pretty interesting gameplay mechanics (controlling your stone buddy with the Dominion Rod and that annoying hand badguy in the twilight palace). Seriously, TP was the most recent console Zelda, and it NAILED dungeons. It gets criticized because it dropped the ball in many other areas, but its dungeons were so ace. I'm not sure if I've seen level design that good since.

And honestly, I think we remember the 2D dungeons being so much harder because we were so much younger back then. A few years ago, I replayed LttP for the first time since childhood, and I think I was in and out of each dungeon in under an hour. None of TP's took me less than an hour my first time through; not even close.

--
Yoblazer: http://8board.webs.com/ariel.jpg
Watch and you'll see... someday I'll be... part of your world!

From: ZFS | #108
but on the whole, I wasn't impressed by them.

lol don't even start. I remember you loving that game for the exact same reason I did - the "best collection of dungeons of any 3D Zelda." You loved them ONCE.

--
Yoblazer: http://i32.tinypic.com/zlf1w7.gif
Watch and you'll see... someday I'll be... part of your world!

Iron Boots were pretty cool. I thought the controls were bad when you got up there, but I like the gravity mechanic. Lakebed Temple no thank you. Temple of Time and Palace of Twilight were an unprecedented levels of awful. Arbiter's Grounds is a mixed bag of good and bad -- the Spinner was awesome, the rest of it was whatever. TP did a nice job of throwing some variety at you, and I do think there are some genuinely creative dungeons in there (the two I mentioned), and it may actually have the best overall collection of them in a 3D Zelda game, but that's not major praise! 3D Zelda certainly isn't the pinnacle of good level design in gaming.

--
peace comes from within

I think if you want the game to have a focus on puzzles, you need to add some difficulty to that. If the puzzles are too simplistic, then they aren't engaging, and instead just turn to tedium. Probably something should still be there in case the puzzle's too hard, to aid the player through if they get stuck though.

Not the same series, but an example for this was Paper Mario. I played through it recently, and a lot of the dungeons in that had puzzles. But rarely was it a challenge to figure out how to solve the puzzle. Instead, most of the challenge was in how long it took to go through the motions to reach the obvious solution needed. The time I spent on those was all doing tedious actions and never trying to work with my brain for a solution. At times, it failed to add any interest for me in the gameplay and sometimes detracted from my enjoyment.

I haven't played many recent Zelda games, so I can't comment on how they've done it. It was more just a point to bring up for those saying that making the difficult at all isn't needed. If the series is to retain the puzzle-based aspect, some difficulty is needed to keep it entertaining.

--
ONLY FIVE CAN LADDER.
Sushi, kamikaze, fujiyama, nippon-ichi...

Lakebed Temple no thank you



--
http://i.imgur.com/A63VR.gif
http://www.yourgamercards.net/trophy/a/CaptainRockman.png

Everyone complaining about the direction Zelda is going should play Spirit Tracks, because they obviously haven't.

Not saying Nintendo will necessarily take cues from all the great stuff they did with that game, but it sure renewed my hope in the series after the mediocre and unoriginal Twilight Princess and the flat-out boring Phantom Hourglass.

Let's see here now about Spirit Tracks...

-Actually challenging combat, featuring intense and varied boss fights

-Very clever dungeon design despite the crappy Phantom Hourglass engine

-A good story with memorable characters and villains who actually do something

-Great music with memorable melodies

-Lots of cool minigames, sidequests and diversions, exploration is rewarded

-Challenging optional dungeon with unique "superboss"


This stuff is all that I want Zelda to do in future games.

--
Signature change in progress... Please wait.

Aonuma should play Lufia 2 to learn how to implement puzzles in the game. There were a couple that really made me think. The last time I had to think about how to solve a puzzle in a Zelda game was the first time I encountered a torch puzzle in LttP, and that's because I'd never encountered such a puzzle. It didn't take too long, though. I have to agree, once you are used to the Zelda formula, the puzzles are only there to make you go through the motions.

--
"Principally I hate and detest the animal called man, although I heartily love John, Peter, Thomas and so forth" - Jonathan Swift
BT with the victory!

Spirit Tracks is one of the biggest pieces of trash Nintendo has ever been responsible for. I can't believe anyone has even the slightest bit of praise for that game - it is inexplicably bad, like they weren't even trying. The world is completely bland and devoid of any life whatsoever, the dungeon design is pathetic on levels I didn't think were possible, and there was one annoying part a little over halfway through the game where you have to stop some guy from getting kidnapped on the train that just made me quit entirely. Spirit Tracks has basically killed any optimism I had of ever seeing a good portable Zelda ever again.

I have to wonder then what game you were playing because it was infinitely more enjoyable than Phantom Hourglass was

--
http://i.imgur.com/A63VR.gif
http://www.yourgamercards.net/trophy/a/CaptainRockman.png

Phantom Hourglass isn't good either, but at least I felt like finishing the game. Sailing beats the s*** out of driving a train, the dungeon design was bad but better than ST's, and I actually liked the temple of the ocean king, even though everyone hates it - it was a new idea and it brought a return to the idea of having multiple ways to do one thing. Most of the problems in Phantom Hourglass are recurring in Spirit Tracks, like clumsy controls, boring items, a nearly complete lack of interesting secrets or sidequests, and a world that is completely lifeless and devoid of any sort of character or charm. Although the biggest one, which is the worst soundtrack to ever appear in a high-profile game, did get remedied in Spirit Tracks, which upgrades its soundtrack to merely "forgettable." Woohoo.

Spirit Tracks is one of the biggest pieces of trash Nintendo has ever been responsible for. I can't believe anyone has even the slightest bit of praise for that game - it is inexplicably bad, like they weren't even trying. The world is completely bland and devoid of any life whatsoever, the dungeon design is pathetic on levels I didn't think were possible, and there was one annoying part a little over halfway through the game where you have to stop some guy from getting kidnapped on the train that just made me quit entirely. Spirit Tracks has basically killed any optimism I had of ever seeing a good portable Zelda ever again.

Wow, someone has had a bad day.

Also commenting on games you didn't even play halfway through - lol.

--
Signature change in progress... Please wait.

I played it halfway through and it was - pun completely intended - a TRAINWRECK. I did not enjoy myself for a single second playing the game, I saw no signs that the game was about to improve, and when I made a topic asking "is ST going to get better after this" the response was basically "no, not really", so I stopped. Phantom Hourglass was merely boring with one really good thing about it (the temple of the ocean king), but god I have so much bile to spit all over Spirit Tracks you have no idea.

Hey, that's exactly how I feel about LoZ1!

--
Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

Can't say I've played Spirit Tracks, but people seem to dislike it.

--
peace comes from within

KamikazePotato posted...
Hey, that's exactly how I feel about LoZ1!

You're a terrible person.

--
"Principally I hate and detest the animal called man, although I heartily love John, Peter, Thomas and so forth" - Jonathan Swift
BT with the victory!

The original Legend of Zelda certainly is not as broadly appealing today as it was 25 years ago. I don't think I would have finished it if not for FAQs.

--
Yoblazer: http://oi52.tinypic.com/ad21i1.jpg
Watch and you'll see... someday I'll be... part of your world!

You would probably need a map, anyway.

--
peace comes from within

I know I'm in a minority but I still enjoy playing the original Zelda. To others it's aged horribly but to me it's timeless. Sure, it has its flaws, but the dungeons are simple yet complex, the combat is satisfying, and there's more secrets to find than there has been in any recent Zelda game.

Yeah, I think Zelda 1 is the most replayable game in the series. If I'm playing an old Zelda game, it'll be that one. Same with Mario 1!

--
peace comes from within

I actually prefer AoL, LttP, and LA all over Zelda 1, but those four games are basically my four favorite Zeldas (although it's by a small margin over OoT, WW, and the Oracles).

man how you guys having trouble with Zelda 1

I beat it when I was 4. Now if you meant the Master Quest portion then I guess.

--
Nice catch BlAcK TuRtLe.
But too bad your ass got SAAAAAAAAAAACKED.*tackles*

Everyone Since KP = not terrible people.

Yeah, the game has flaws. I dare you to point out a game that doesn't. But those flaws become redeemable qualities the more you play the game. Suddenly remembering which bush to burn or where to drop a bomb becomes a reward mechanic of its own. Instead of just bombing where the cracks are or lighting the torches because there's literally nothing else to do in the palace (I'm looking at you, first torch puzzle I faced in LttP), you actually worked to know something about the game.

And you know what, anyone who loves games like Mega Man and Contra did basically the same thing, but with more twitch reaction required. You learn to do the appropriate thing at the appropriate time and after several playthroughs ('cause the majority of games have generally been rather short throughout the entire history of video gaming) you start to become quite good at interacting with such an "obtuse" (someone else's word for finding dungeon 8*) world.

The 3d games, though, they don't give you that. They hold your hand all the way through the first time and hold your hand all the way through every time after. You don't feel like you discovered anything when your companion is always, every time, yelling "HEY LISTEN!... There's some secret **** right here"

*Look at that bush. Look at it. It screams "BURN ME!"

--
"Principally I hate and detest the animal called man, although I heartily love John, Peter, Thomas and so forth" - Jonathan Swift
BT with the victory!

Well this is big news. Hating the very origin of your franchise, how dare you!

Although it's difficult not to see me falling right in line with his opinions (not outright hating Zelda 1, but yeah), to be honest.

I think my opinions on this franchise have more or less been spat out to death by now so I'll leave.

--
Currently Playing - StarCraft: Brood War

Oh, and Shoe is the least terrible. I was a tad older when I beat Zelda, maybe two years, but it wasn't hard and it wasn't long before I was setting certain challenges for myself along the way. Master Quest excluded. Going to give that a runthrough soon, though, since Nintendo just gave me another copy of the game for free (which is twice as many I've had that were paid for).

--
"Principally I hate and detest the animal called man, although I heartily love John, Peter, Thomas and so forth" - Jonathan Swift
BT with the victory!

I was either 7 or 8 when I beat Zelda 1. Link's Awakening was actually my first Zelda - I got that and beat it when I was 6 - and then I beat Link to the Past not long after that when it was bundled with my SNES. Then like a year later I discovered the first Zelda, and even though I had been spoiled by LA and LttP I still loved it. It was challenging and some of the secrets were hard to find but I didn't find it to be blisteringly difficult, except perhaps for the damn Wizrobes in level 6, those definitely kicked my ass until I got the wand.

*** this

gonna go play Zelda 1 because

--
Nice catch BlAcK TuRtLe.
But too bad your ass got SAAAAAAAAAAACKED.*tackles*

I forgot to mention that in my last playthrough of LttP (only my second so far), I saw the Game Over screen exactly once (although, embarrassingly enough, it was against the second boss!), and in my last playthrough of OoT (again only my second), I never died.

Difficulty clearly means nothing for the Zelda series at least.

--
Currently Playing - StarCraft: Brood War

Wizzrobes the worst

--
peace comes from within

I got to level 9 as a kid but my save battery ended up getting messed up before I beat it. Actually beat it at like 12 or 13 when it came out on GBA

And tbqh the level 8 bush is not even that hard to figure out, it's a single bush blocking a pathway, there's no other bush like that in the whole game. Now having trouble with finding level 7 makes a little more sense, because I don't remember there being any clues about its location at all.

--
(10:17:09 PM) Ed Bellis: i think pac-man just keeps repeating, for instance
(10:17:26 PM) ertyu: ya well tell that to billy michtlle

Interesting review of Zelda 1: http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-legend-of-zelda,60286/

Anyway, just wanted to post that despite how lame this topic is.

--
"God Hand is the ultimate expression of the joy of humanity, specifically the punching part of the joy of humanity."-Shigeru Miyamoto

ZFS posted...
Wizzrobes the worst

In MM, yes.

--
Currently Playing - StarCraft: Brood War

From: paperwarior | #138
Interesting review of Zelda 1: http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-legend-of-zelda,60286/

Anyway, just wanted to post that despite how lame this topic is.

He could have just bought a key from a store instead of giving in and looking that up!

--
http://i49.tinypic.com/anio39.gif

I don't give a darn about how linear or open-ended a game is. Generally I prefer the former since I'm more of an action guy than a puzzles guy, but then again I really loved Super Metroid so obviously I can appreciate a god open-ended adventure.

When I last played Twilight Princess I never felt it to be linear at all in any fashion aside from story progression. I did some small snippets of overworld exploration in between dungeon runs for the fun of it and really enjoyed it. That's supposed to be a linear game? Plus I don't really care for dungeons in the 3D Zeldas (although I still like them a lot, but they're not "good" enough to prevent me from doing brief overworld hunts in between each dungeon).

As far as LW's Metroid Prime example, well, I view Prime as being an amalgamation of lots of other game styles before seeing it as an actual Metroid title (to be fair, that whole franchise feels extremely disjointed and problematic for me). Somehow though, I have a far higher tolerance for Super Metroid and Prime being open-ended than I do for any Legend of Zelda game (probably because I like sci-fi settings more and because no Metroid game is too much more story-heavy as the usual modern 3D Zelda - Other M didn't feel much more story-heavy than Ocarina of Time for me! Plus both games reminded me of each other a lot...).

--
Currently Playing - StarCraft: Brood War

that's not even a review - it's just a dude blogging at length about his personal relationship with zelda 1

I got plenty of game overs in TP, in fact that's where I stopped the game. Well, where I stopped for good. I had stopped playing for several months while I was in the middle of the Goron Mines because I just didn't like it at all. Later I decided to give it another try. I continued my game from where I left off in the Goron Mines and immediately came up against the sub-boss. There was some trick to beating him that you had demonstrated to you shortly before, but I hadn't played that part in like a year. Midna was all "Do it just like you did in the other room!" and I was like "Uhhhh...?" and I died a bunch. There was a one-way door situation so I couldn't go back to the old room and get it re-explained to me, and I wasn't about to start over and suffer through the goat-wrangling and every other bit of tedious bull**** I had already done. I tried looking up a FAQ but the first one I checked didn't explain it and at that point I'd expended all the effort I was willing to put into that terrible game.

--
Black Turtle spilled my diet soda!

ChichiriMuyo posted...
Everyone Since KP = not terrible people.

Yeah, the game has flaws. I dare you to point out a game that doesn't. But those flaws become redeemable qualities the more you play the game. Suddenly remembering which bush to burn or where to drop a bomb becomes a reward mechanic of its own. Instead of just bombing where the cracks are or lighting the torches because there's literally nothing else to do in the palace (I'm looking at you, first torch puzzle I faced in LttP), you actually worked to know something about the game.

And you know what, anyone who loves games like Mega Man and Contra did basically the same thing, but with more twitch reaction required. You learn to do the appropriate thing at the appropriate time and after several playthroughs ('cause the majority of games have generally been rather short throughout the entire history of video gaming) you start to become quite good at interacting with such an "obtuse" (someone else's word for finding dungeon 8*) world.

The 3d games, though, they don't give you that. They hold your hand all the way through the first time and hold your hand all the way through every time after. You don't feel like you discovered anything when your companion is always, every time, yelling "HEY LISTEN!... There's some secret **** right here"

*Look at that bush. Look at it. It screams "BURN ME!"

Work to me implies something like DKC2, a dialog with the designer where he's pointing you forward and letting you put everything together, not "try everything and see what sticks" moon logic. Unless you're the kind of guy who defends pit jumping in the original DKC, or the Bela Ring quest in the Dark Savant saga of Wizardry. The later Zeldas make it too easy, but Zelda 1's flaws are just that, flaws. Not good design in any way, shape, or form.

--
Currently playing: League of Legends, Chrono Cross.
Current Projects: Fool's Overture, CYOA: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/60143513

Dauntless Hunter posted...
I got plenty of game overs in TP, in fact that's where I stopped the game. Well, where I stopped for good. I had stopped playing for several months while I was in the middle of the Goron Mines because I just didn't like it at all. Later I decided to give it another try. I continued my game from where I left off in the Goron Mines and immediately came up against the sub-boss. There was some trick to beating him that you had demonstrated to you shortly before, but I hadn't played that part in like a year. Midna was all "Do it just like you did in the other room!" and I was like "Uhhhh...?" and I died a bunch. There was a one-way door situation so I couldn't go back to the old room and get it re-explained to me, and I wasn't about to start over and suffer through the goat-wrangling and every other bit of tedious bull**** I had already done. I tried looking up a FAQ but the first one I checked didn't explain it and at that point I'd expended all the effort I was willing to put into that terrible game.

A game doesn't work if you quit it for months? Shock of shocks!

(you really must not like RPGs, strategy games, or decent run and guns either!)

--
Currently playing: League of Legends, Chrono Cross.
Current Projects: Fool's Overture, CYOA: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/60143513

This isn't nearly as surprising as it should be.

--
Ace Detective in Sir Chris' Police
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/9451/20110530afabodo.jpg

Seriously guys Zelda 1 isn't hard.

Maybe you aren't good at the game, but after a few dungeons, I pretty much figured out the kind of things the game expected me to bomb.

Yeah some optional things are quite hidden and unintuitive, but the game even gives you hints on how to progress.
Second quest is another story, but again, it's a second quest, meant to be challenging.

I read somewhere that the other co-director for Skyward Sword loves the first game.

--
Give up some love for the Guru!
Ladies and gentleman, the Incredible Black Turtle!