How do we keep ending up with all these bland, mediocre JRPGs? Those three mentioned in the topic title are some of the best games ever and yet seem incredibly simple to make. JRPGs were a quintessential part of the 90's gamer generation, and we've all grown up and have lots of disposable income now; so why doesn't Japan cash in on this and make more games like this?
Is it not common sense?
**** I want Xenoblade now
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Wouldn't matter. If they copied those formulas, the games would just be dismissed as bland knockoffs.
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there isn't much of a formula between these games aside from using bland turn based combat, which was never what old square games were praised for to begin with.
It's the writing that's suffered tremendously this past nine years. Although I'm not sure I'd classify even FFVI's and Chrono Trigger's writing as especially strong, and VII had some hurdles. But damn, those games had great, great scenes that were genuinely well-written.
inb4you'rejustoldernow
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"Mr. Paris, I assume you've had a great deal of experience being rejected by women." ~SCP~ http://img.imgcake.com/Jeffzeropngus.png
This topic is really funny in an ignorant way considering tons of games HAVE copied the formula and just failed since no one wants to play the same game over and over... which uncoincidentally is why JRPGs are in the toilet nowadays
-- _foolmo_ 'so I can potentially win the guru without getting the final right?' - BlAcK TuRtLe
FFX was the last good square game and I wouldn't even say the writing in that game was very good, honestly what drew me into it the most more than the characters or their dialogue was spira itself, best world square has created.
Battle systems are somewhat irrelevant to me. I want a good story filled to the brim with impressionable plot twists and turns and an ensemble dynamic. I want lots of exploration and most importantly of all, a terrific sense of atmosphere and adventure. All these things aren't 'done to death' -- you can't do good to death.
Unfortunately for me, battle systems and graphics are what people look at first and foremost. That's never changed and it never will. I've accepted this and moved on.
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don't add black sigil to any list. trust me on that. it's heavy CT fanboys who liked the encounter rate of SoA and wanted something like Lunar more or less to make sure battles would never end. <_<;
Radiant Historia on the other hand, fantastic and one of the DS' best. Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky is also what you're looking for. 'cept that one has among the best writing out of any RPG this gen.
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The future must protect the clone's past. "Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.
Part of the problem is that people seem to all want very different things from JRPGs these days, and tend to selectively view some staples of the older games as anachronisms.
Some people think turn-based battles are a thing of the past (or are otherwise tired of them); for others, they're a reason to play the genre. See above, replace "turn-based battles" with "linear games". See above, substitute in "exploring an overworld". See above, substitute in "plots about saving the world". Not to mention the huge debate about whether an RPG should be long and sprawling or short and streamlined; do you want a Chrono Trigger or a Dragon Quest 8?
etc.
The key to me is finding the JRPGs that work for you. Pinpoint what you liked about the games, and you can probably be directed at games which still do that.
Though, I think it's quite ludicrous to suggest that writing has overall gotten worse tbqh. Chrono Trigger is a great game, but it barely had a plot and if you think it had particularly affecting scenes it's probably because you played it when you were younger/new to the genre.
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Writing is pretty much the number one thing I look for. Xenogears is my favorite game but that doesn't mean I'm not critical of even its writing sometimes. It's a big, big thing for me and few games seem to really try to capitalize it. It's why I've gotten into things like Mass Effect.
I'll add Legend of Heroes to the list. (Rather generic name though. >_>)
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don't add black sigil to any list. trust me on that. it's heavy CT fanboys who liked the encounter rate of SoA and wanted something like Lunar more or less to make sure battles would never end. <_<;
Radiant Historia on the other hand, fantastic and one of the DS' best.
Oh yeah, seconding this; although I haven't played Black Sigil myself, I've heard this description a lot. RH is certainly good, though. I'd second it being the DS' best RPG out of the crop I've played (about ten of 'em).
-- The RPG Duelling League: www.rpgdl.com An unparalleled source for RPG information and discussion
Though, I think it's quite ludicrous to suggest that writing has overall gotten worse tbqh. Chrono Trigger is a great game, but it barely had a plot and if you think it had particularly affecting scenes it's probably because you played it when you were younger/new to the genre.
Those few plotlines it held were genuinely better-written (mainly after a rather mediocre opening sprawl) than most of the things I've seen from the bigger companies in the past several years. And I doubt it has anything to do with age. I didn't play the game until I was 17 -- seven years later than I got into the genre. By then I'd already identified things about the then-newer games that I didn't care for so much and CT, simplistic though it were, held true to many of the standards I sought.
There's nothing ludicrous about it. Not from where I'm standing. Sorry, but generic as it may be to say, I'll take Cloud's melodramatic "my fingers are tingling, my eyes are burning" over XIII's "moms are tough! ^_^" Until I find more games that can match the overall storytelling of that era I'll hold to that.
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"Mr. Paris, I assume you've had a great deal of experience being rejected by women." ~SCP~ http://img.imgcake.com/Jeffzeropngus.png
I loved Black Sigil, the encounter rate really isn't that bad. It is a little high but not awful, and the fights are quick once you realize how the battle system works.
The game is a little buggy though, small poor company made it and did a bad job in the final production stages because they ran out of money and slapped it all together quick.
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chrono trigger is legitimately better BECAUSE it is more minimal, FFVII can't claim that but in reality they go overboard with the dialogue in most JRPGs to the point that it destroys its believability. don't tell every detail of a plot, SHOW some of it.
The thing about games like FFVII and Xenogears is that they come from an era where it was apparently not nearly as hard (unsurprisingly) to insert a lot of dialogue, a ton of plot points and so forth. FFXIII is a hike through Cocoon and later on, Pulse. It's a series of events that could easily fit into just a few episodes of a television series. If VII and especially Xenogears were done in full they'd require whole seasons, easily.
That was, for me, very much a golden age at least of the bigger-budget JRPGs because the writing was getting there and what was given to the player was not yet terribly limited by graphical tugging.
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"Mr. Paris, I assume you've had a great deal of experience being rejected by women." ~SCP~ http://img.imgcake.com/Jeffzeropngus.png
wlel it should be rather generic sounding considering the series has been around since the 80s. Legend of Heroes is Falcom's other big series, besides Ys, and is heavily story-based. we should get 3 of the PSP ones sooner than later as xseed's translating at least those 3, but that's their biggest project to date; the 2nd game is one of the rare 2-disc games on the PSP because it has a script THAT long.
Infinite Space on the DS is also one worth mentioning if you're interested in plot. Atlus doesn't need to be mentioned as you already know that.
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The future must protect the clone's past. "Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.
...yeah, if you want a long read in a game, then Legend of Heroes is definitely the series you wanna play. there was actually a comparison made to other games. there were over 1.5 million characters in the game. FF12 had 600K. Tactic's Ogre's PSP remake? 700K. Higurashi's first 4-part arc was 1.8 mil. while most of that is optional and it's doubtful you'll read it all, you've got an idea as to how much text there is and care for the world was made there.
its sequel is much, much longer.
the PSP initially got one of the older trios (Falcom does PC games) but it was localized pretty badly and Falcom didn't make the port themselves either, so on both ends it was flawed. XSEED came in and took this trio for localization, which Falcom themselves ported over. end result, fantastic transition on both angles and another 2 entries we probably won't get are out as well. the series generally works in 3 games, and they're only loosely connected and mostly standalone games. 'cept the current one. it's up to 5 and can easily do double that, while still being full of content and progress.
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The future must protect the clone's past. "Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.
That sounds perfect. Thanks for the comparison. 700k in Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together sounds about right. 1.5 million sounds delicious. Optional or not, I'll doubtless try to read it all.
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"Mr. Paris, I assume you've had a great deal of experience being rejected by women." ~SCP~ http://img.imgcake.com/Jeffzeropngus.png
If more JRPGs were like Chrono Trigger, I'd play more JRPGs. No random battles, fun fast-paced battle system with just enough leveling options to keep you in the game but never overwhelming with micromanagement, no fat/filler just 20-25 hours of lean goodness, and some classical storytelling that doesn't rock your world but doesn't make you facepalm either.
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Hey you make it sounds like battle system is as shallow as graphics!
I really like a great adventure too, which is independent to good writing.
I still think FF1 is one of the greatest just because of the open-endedness and the way the plot "isn't in the way." That said, I still think the PS1 games did an outstanding job of having a well-written plot and keeping the adventure with the player. FFX on the other hand...
Psycho_Kenshin posted... I can sometimes agree with this, sometimes fans want more of a good thing.
For example, seems odd we'll never get another Mario 64.
Galaxy?
@NeoElfboy: If you can't say that Crono's death isn't powerfully written I just don't know what to tell you. That's an *excellent* example of a very compelling scene that could go into a text book. It's like YOU died and you're watching it all unfold pretty much.
@Everybody else: The problem is that you can't make a top-of-the-line set of graphics and a top notch world anymore. You have to pick one and go low on the other because the costs of production have gone up faster than the means to create an environment that looks great have had its use facilitated and made cheaper. FFXIII had amazing graphics, but crap for a story both because of a bad devteam and because RPGs cost a TON. Think about it: how many great jRPGs have we had this gen on consoles? And how many are technical marvels, too? Tales of Vesperia looks great, sure, but that's more on its art direction than on its graphical power. It's a tough tradeoff the larger companies aren't entirely willing to make because they're held to a standard of excellence, while smaller groups like Atlus can get away with it, and it creates a large gap in styles. This is why we get a ton of DS rpgs BTW, not because it's a better platform for them or whatever.
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From: Wanglicious | #028 Infinite Space on the DS is also one worth mentioning if you're interested in plot.
Infinite Space was a game I really wanted to like but I just couldn't get into it. It definitely had problems, for example I always felt like the AI was a big cheater (seemed like every time I tried a barrage, the AI just HAPPENED to dodge, but if I just kept firing normal shots that could at least hit, they'd launch a barrage and deal like 80% and kill me). And the audio was pretty much junk; the sound effects during battle were speaker-blowingly loud for no reason, and totally drowned out the dialogue.
There are currently four Legend of Heroes games available in English, with (hopefully) at least two more coming. They're split into two subseries-
The Gahgarv trilogy are shoddy PSP ports localised by a disinterested team, but the original versions were so great that even the US release is pretty good, especially if you're looking for something reminiscent of the 16 bit era. > Legend of Heroes (Actually Legend of Heroes IV: A Tear of Vermillion) > Legend of Heroes II: Prophecy of the Moonlight Witch (Really LoH III: The White Witch) > Legend of Heroes III: Song of the Ocean (Really LoH V: A Cagesong of the Ocean)
Far better, but less retro-y, is the Sora no Kiseki series (Trails in the Sky), which consists of three games, all of which are numbered Legend of Heroes VI in Japan. Because they're weird like that. These are getting much better localisations by XCeed, but only the first is released so far, they take bloody ages to translate the enormous amounts of text (Second Chapter comes on Two UMDs), and the PSP is on its way out, so there's some doubt as to whether we'll get the whole trilogy.
Japan also has a sequel and prequel to the Trails trilogy, Ao no Kiseki and Zero no Kiseki respectively, but Ceiling Cat only knows if they'll ever get localised.
TLDR version: Trails rocks, buy it now and pray we get the rest of the Kiseki games. Other LoH games aren't as good as they ought to be but are still worth a try. Falcom owns your soul.
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