Board 8 > Any thoughts on the Occupy Wall Street movement?

(+) Yeah! (+)

STU_GBP STU BURGUIERE
Remember #OccupyWallSt: Banks that ask us to pay back loan and 3% interest=evil. Colleges who come up with tuition price=saints.

--
SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
http://img.imgcake.com/gadsdenflaggifda.gif

SmartMuffin posted...
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Bankster-Flyer.pdf

Yeah, um, you know a country that doesn't have a lot of bubbles? Canada, because it doesn't allow the crazy borrowing that caused the 2008 crash. Canada suffered a little when America crashed, because Canada exports so much to America, but still recovered pretty quickly.

So yes: regulation on banks actually does work, provably so.

--
Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision

Unless the regulations say that you have to make super risky loans, so that anyone who doesn't want to gets shut down by the government and the remaining banks can make more money.

--
90s games > 00s games

red sox 777 posted...
Unless the regulations say that you have to make super risky loans, so that anyone who doesn't want to gets shut down by the government and the remaining banks can make more money.

Ok, let me revise: good regulations on banks are actually effective.

I don't really trust the American political system right now to produce good regulations.

--
Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision

I don't really trust the American political system right now to produce good regulations.

Sounds like you should be a libertarian!

--
SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
http://img.imgcake.com/gadsdenflaggifda.gif

MartinFF7 posted...


I know no one will watch this in its entirety, but it's definitely worth a listen. Not to mention that's from March 2007 and things have only gotten worse in the meantime.

That's a fantastic video, and actually comes across as pretty even-handed. (For instance, it points out problems in health care and housing, but also points to rising costs in education, and the growing number of people who believe a college education is needed).

--
Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision

Stolen from the "I bet Ludwig Von Mises..." Facebook page.

I forget where I first heard this quote, but it's relevant to the blanket charge of "greed" levied at Wall Street when blaming them for the financial collapse.

"Blaming a financial crisis on greed is like blaming an airplane crash on gravity."

Did something alter the basic biology of humans in the 10 years before 2008? Or did the Fed engage in unprecedented interest rate cutting that exacerbated the problems caused by Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and the FDIC?

--
SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
http://img.imgcake.com/gadsdenflaggifda.gif

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/the-chart-that-shows-just-how-wrong-obamas-stimulus-projections-were/

--
SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
http://img.imgcake.com/gadsdenflaggifda.gif

To be honest Smuffin, it's not just Obama. The US economy hasn't really been growing properly since 2000, in my opinion. The tech boom was the last great engine of real economic growth (real as in actually makes people better off). Since 2000 we've had the housing bubble, which is essentially people having the exact same houses but feeling good about it because they're worth more, and a boom in derivatives, which is once again, people having the exact same underlying securities but feeling good about it because they're worth more. Oil companies have had a lot of growth, which is similarly having the exact same oil as before, but at a higher price.

Speaking of the tech bubble, I wonder how much CJayC could have sold Gamefaqs for in March of 2000. He ended up selling at basically the very bottom for tech companies in 2003. Looking at other tech, especially internet, companies it wouldn't be too shocking if he could have gotten 50-100 million for the site in 2000, given that he sold for 2 million in 2003.

--
90s games > 00s games

red sox 777 posted...
Liberals have been in hiding since Reagan, and really since Nixon. It's because they're unpopular and they know it. Liberals always have to sugarcoat themselves as moderate or reasonable. Conservatives can openly trumpet themselves as far right extreme. A large number of the Democrats in power are moderates- the party really depends on them for its survival. If the Democratic Party treated moderates like the Republican Party does in primaries, Republicans would have complete control of the Federal Government, because the far left would fail horribly at winning general elections.

And liberals aren't allowed to be upset about this?

The ones who aren't into politics aren't allowed to come out of hiding and be frustrated in open?

--
http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png
edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously?

The ones who aren't into politics aren't allowed to come out of hiding and be frustrated in open?

anyone who's remotely republican/[insert dominant political party here] will support people being uneducated on politics because it means their viewpoints will go mostly unopposed. despite the fact that this is bad for any political environment, no matter how "right" you are or how "wrong" they are.

--
maybe, lol

SmartMuffin posted...
STU_GBP STU BURGUIERE
Remember #OccupyWallSt: Banks that ask us to pay back loan and 3% interest=evil. Colleges who come up with tuition price=saints.

Who in their right mind is defending the college system right now? It's goddamn terrible. The banks and the colleges are working together, maybe not directly, but rises in tuition means that people have to take out more money, and when people have more money, it's OK to raise tuition higher (also, inflation, but that's super minor in the grand scheme of things).

Ideally, there would be some sort of limit for tuition in, at the very least, state schools and community colleges, that way if you don't have the money/desire/grades to go to a private school, there's always another option. It bums me out to see lots of my friends, some of whom are very bright people, worry about their higher education because of money they don't have, and my older friends (think late twenties) who have mountains upon mountains of debt that they got for going to school, that they now have to work off for the next ten to twenty years. I feel incredibly grateful that I both decided that I don't want to go to a private school, and that my parents have enough money that I don't have to take out loans to take the classes I want to (granted, these are at community college, but that's still kinda expensive.) There are people at my school who have to take out loans to go to community college. How sad is that? Community college, long thought to be the place where you go because you're too dumb to go to a "real" school, requires a bank loan.

Who has a loan at only 3%? My loans are at like 15% from undergrad. I'm being robbed blind.

--
http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png
edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously?

I never got the stigma against community colleges. What defines a 'real' college? Is there a list of colleges/universities that magically make them real and better than other colleges, simply because they're on that list?

Apparently I've heard some people go to a community college and then transfer to high brow universities, isn't that better than just going to an average college for your entire education?

--
maybe, lol

They can be as upset about it as they like. The country (or at least the majority) dislikes them and their ideas, and isn't going to change its mind. I am really glad that is the case. It is a culture war, and leftists believe they are on the right side of history, but we do not. The only societies they'll win are ones that are degenerate or degenerating.

Speaking of history, marxism is really outdated. There are no more proletariats in the United States. That kind of work has been shipped overseas.

--
90s games > 00s games

Who has a loan at only 3%? My loans are at like 15% from undergrad. I'm being robbed blind.

15%?!? This isn't the late 70s/early 80s when we had double digit inflation, you ARE being robbed blind. Why didn't you borrow from the Federal Government? They have much lower rates than that.

--
90s games > 00s games

It was only for my senior year after Pennsylvania slashed their grants and I had hit my federal limit. But still, it was frankly pretty ridiculous.

--
http://img.imgcake.com/nio/81edpngej.png
edwardsdv and swordz9 are basically the comedy heel tag team of this topic, why would people be taking them seriously?

Silverliner182V posted...
I never got the stigma against community colleges. What defines a 'real' college? Is there a list of colleges/universities that magically make them real and better than other colleges, simply because they're on that list?

Apparently I've heard some people go to a community college and then transfer to high brow universities, isn't that better than just going to an average college for your entire education?

I put "real" in quotes because, at least in the school that I'm going to, it's just as good, especially for those crappy classes you have to take your first year, and especially if you're going to learn a trade (I'm taking culinary school there, and the facilities are on par with a lot of really expensive culinary schools, but that's an exception to the rule). It's way, way cheaper to do the 2/2 plan (2 years at a CC, 2 years at a state/private school), but it's still kind of expensive. I'm paying just over $100 per credit hour, which means about $1600-$2000 a semester if you want a full load, but again, that's not including room/board (I'm living with my parents), books (I don't actually buy them because holy crap they're expensive), food (I'm taking few enough classes that I have time for a job to afford this), and other living expenses.

Fun game: If you ever ask your parents about their college experience, ask them how much they had to take out in student loans, and then ask them if they had a job to help with that, and if their parents helped any. Compare that to your classmates. Then get really depressed when you realize how boned you are.

Well, to be completely fair, assuming your parents are about 30 years older than you, you should multiply their costs by 6. That reflects the growth in the US economy and inflation in the past 30 years. Though of course, their generation's college costs will end up still being a lot lower. I think the next generation's college costs will be even higher though. You can probably expect to pay around $1 million to put a child through a good private college another 30 years down the line, if you don't get financial aid.

--
90s games > 00s games

Well, to be completely fair, assuming your parents are about 30 years older than you, you should multiply their costs by 6. That reflects the growth in the US economy and inflation in the past 30 years. Though of course, their generation's college costs will end up still being a lot lower. I think the next generation's college costs will be even higher though. You can probably expect to pay around $1 million to put a child through a good private college another 30 years down the line, if you don't get financial aid.

at a million dollars, it would literally take you ten years minimum at a 100k a year salary to pay off the money you lost for education. this is not counting the money you'll have to pay for rent, taxes, medical bills, etc (which will also be even more expensive) so it's more like 40 years. (i did not do any actual math in this, i just eyeballed it.)

this is basically why i'm moving out of america. if you think the state of the economy and the income equality is bad, it'll be even worse in 10 or 20 years. companies/the rich will probably keep increasing in power while the average person becomes more and more irrelevant. it will take literal riots and anarchy to reverse something like that.

--
maybe, lol

Most of the increase from 200k to 1M would be inflation. In today's dollars it'd probably be more like 300k.

--
90s games > 00s games

red sox 777 posted...
Well, to be completely fair, assuming your parents are about 30 years older than you, you should multiply their costs by 6. That reflects the growth in the US economy and inflation in the past 30 years. Though of course, their generation's college costs will end up still being a lot lower. I think the next generation's college costs will be even higher though. You can probably expect to pay around $1 million to put a child through a good private college another 30 years down the line, if you don't get financial aid.

Taking inflation from 1980 to 2010, it's actually less than 3 times as much. $.36, to be more exact. (thank you, inflation calculator)

So, say I actually wanted to go to the same university my parents did (the great University of Iowa). My mom was an undergrad in 1980, as would I have been in 2010. Tuition costs were, according to the UIowa library (http://www.lib.uiowa.edu/spec-coll/archives/guides/TuitionRateSchedule1980.htm), $415 per semester (because we both lived in Iowa) in 1980, and in 2010, were $6,824. That is an increase of 1500%, or more than five times as much as inflation, which is sitting below 300%.

Another fun experiment: Let's compare the change in tuition from 1960-1980, and then again from 1980-2000, and then, just for fun, 2000-2010

'60-'80: Just under 350%
'80-'00: Almost exactly 350%.
'00-'10: A little below 470%

So, from 1960-2000, a fairly consistent rate of change, and then, all of a sudden, BAM! like a kick in the pants.

Taking inflation from 1980 to 2010, it's actually less than 3 times as much. $.36, to be more exact. (thank you, inflation calculator)

It's not just inflation, it's also real economic growth, which has been going at approximately 3% a year. Your degree is worth more than theirs in real dollars, because the US economy is worth more now than in 1980, because of all the technology that's been invented since then. I believe when you multiple the factor from inflation and real economic growth, 6 should be a pretty good ballpark estimate.

--
90s games > 00s games

Because math is fun, comparing 10 year periods: (rounded to nearest 10%)

'60-'70 - 260%
'70-'80 - 130%
'80-'90 - 230%
'90-'00 - 160%
'00-'10 - 470%

Holy ****! What happened in the past ten years that made tuitions skyrocket so much?

red sox 777 posted...
Taking inflation from 1980 to 2010, it's actually less than 3 times as much. $.36, to be more exact. (thank you, inflation calculator)

It's not just inflation, it's also real economic growth, which has been going at approximately 3% a year. Your degree is worth more than theirs in real dollars, because the US economy is worth more now than in 1980, because of all the technology that's been invented since then. I believe when you multiple the factor from inflation and real economic growth, 6 should be a pretty good ballpark estimate.

Of course, even in that case, it's still rising 2.5 times faster.

1. Globalization- There are fewer and fewer "working class" jobs in the United States. They've all been sent overseas. So, college is becoming more and more of a necessity. There is still a long way to go on this perhaps, because still, only 25% of adults over age 25 have 4-year college degrees.

2. Financial Aid- A lot of the tuition increase is artificial. The true tuition is lower, but the colleges take money from richer students and give it to poorer students. Suppose the actual tuition is $20,000- so, from 2 students, the school needs to collect $40,000. The school does this by setting nominal tuition at $40,000 and collecting that from a rich student, and then giving the poor student "$40,000 in aid." In fact the school is not being nearly as generous to the poor student as it sounds like it is.

3. Population Demographics- There's a mini baby boom that is around its peak now. So, more students of college age = more demand = higher prices.

4. Federal Government aid- The Federal government has been very loose with handing out loans and grants to students recently. Easy credit = higher tuition, because the schools know students are able to borrow more.

--
90s games > 00s games

--
SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
http://img.imgcake.com/gadsdenflaggifda.gif

Someone should make a Monopoly variant based on Wall Street nowadays.

--
90s games > 00s games

Taken from a speech from OWS...

…2008 financial crash more hard earned private property was destroyed than if all of us here were to be destroying it night and day for weeks. They tell you we are dreamers. The true dreamers are those who think things can go on indefinitely the way they are. We are not dreamers. We are awakening from a dream which is tuning into a nightmare. We are not destroying anything. We are only witnessing how the system is destroying itself. We all know the classic scenes from cartoons. The cart reaches a precipice. But it goes on walking. Ignoring the fact that there is nothing beneath. Only when it looks down and notices it, it falls down. This is what we are doing here. We are telling the guys there on Wall Street – Hey, look down! (cheering).

In April 2011, the Chinese government prohibited on TV and films and in novels all stories that contain alternate reality or time travel. This is a good sign for China. It means that people still dream about alternatives, so you have to prohibit this dream. Here we don’t think of prohibition. Because the ruling system has even suppressed our capacity to dream. Look at the movies that we see all the time. It’s easy to imagine the end of the world. An asteroid destroying all life and so on. But you cannot imagine the end of capitalism. So what are we doing here? Let me tell you a wonderful old joke from communist times.

A guy was sent from East Germany to work in Siberia. He knew his mail would be read by censors. So he told his friends: Let’s establish a code. If the letter you get from me is written in blue ink ,it is true what I said. If it is written in red ink, it is false. After a month his friends get a first letter. Everything is in blue. It says, this letter: everything is wonderful here. Stores are full of good food. Movie theaters show good films from the West. Apartments are large and luxurious. The only thing you cannot buy is red ink.

This is how we live. We have all the freedoms we want. But what we are missing is red ink. The language to articulate our non-freedom. The way we are taught to speak about freedom war and terrorism and so on falsifies freedom. And this is what you are doing here: You are giving all of us red ink.

There is a danger. Don’t fall in love with yourselves. We have a nice time here. But remember: carnivals come cheap. What matters is the day after. When we will have to return to normal life. Will there be any changes then. I don’t want you to remember these days, you know, like - oh, we were young, it was beautiful. Remember that our basic message is: We are allowed to think about alternatives. The rule is broken. We do not live in the best possible world. But there is a long road ahead. There are truly difficult questions that confront us. We know what we do not want. But what do we want? What social organization can replace capitalism? What type of new leaders do we want?

Remember: the problem is not corruption or greed. The problem is the system that pushes you to give up. Beware not only of the enemies. But also of false friends who are already working to dilute this process. In the same way you get coffee without caffeine, beer without alcohol, ice cream without fat. They will try to make this into a harmless moral protest. But the reason we are here is that we have enough of the world where to recycle coke cans…

--
Yo Where All The White Women At

Part Two:

….Starbucks cappuccino. Where 1% goes to the world’s starving children. It is enough to make us feel good. After outsourcing work and torture. After the marriage agencies are now outsourcing even our love life, daily.

Mic check

We can see that for a long time we allowed our political engagement also to be outsourced. We want it back. We are not communists. If communism means the system which collapsed in 1990, remember that today those communists are the most efficient ruthless capitalists. In China today we have capitalism which is even more dynamic than your American capitalism but doesn’t need democracy. Which means when you criticize capitalism, don’t allow yourselves to be blackmailed that you are against democracy. The marriage between democracy and capitalism is over.

The change is possible. So, what do we consider today possible? Just follow the media. On the one hand in technology and sexuality everything seems to be possible. You can travel to the moon. You can become immortal by biogenetics. You can have sex with animals or whatever. But look at the fields of society and economy. There almost everything is considered impossible. You want to raise taxes a little bit for the rich, they tell you it’s impossible, we lose competitivitiy. You want more money for healthcare: they tell you impossible, this means a totalitarian state. There is something wrong in the world where you are promised to be immortal but cannot spend a little bit more for health care. Maybe that ??? set our priorities straight here. We don’t want higher standards of living. We want better standards of living. The only sense in which we are communists is that we care for the commons. The commons of nature. The commons of what is privatized by intellectual property. The commons of biogenetics. For this and only for this we should fight.

Communism failed absolutely. But the problems of the commons are here. They are telling you we are not Americans here. But the conservative fundamentalists who claim they are really American have to be reminded of something. What is Christianity? It’s the Holy Spirit. What’s the Holy Spirit? It’s an egalitarian community of believers who are linked by love for each other. And who only have their own freedom and responsibility to do it. In this sense the Holy Spirit is here now. And down there on Wall Street there are pagans who are worshipping blasphemous idols. So all we need is patience. The only thing I’m afraid of is that we will someday just go home and then we will meet once a year, drinking beer, and nostalgically remembering what a nice time we had here. Promise ourselves that this will not be the case.

We know that people often desire something but do not really want it. Don’t be afraid to really want what you desire. Thank you very much!

--
Yo Where All The White Women At

Why isn't the Tea Party counterprotesting yet? It's about time someone got a counterprotest going.

--
90s games > 00s games

They are.

The media is just ignoring them.

WHAT A SHOCKER!!!

--
SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
http://img.imgcake.com/gadsdenflaggifda.gif

red sox 777 posted...
Why isn't the Tea Party counterprotesting yet? It's about time someone got a counterprotest going.

They're protesting federal reserves all over the country.

--
Get the X out.
Vinateri was using his god powers on the Pats and then was like "Wait I'm a Colt now lol" and now you have it.

They're protesting federal reserves all over the country.

I thought that was more Alex Jones/Ron Paul kind of groups?

--
Yo Where All The White Women At

100+ arrested in occupy boston...

http://occupyboston.com/2011/10/11/boston-police-brutally-assault-occupy-boston/

--
Yo Where All The White Women At

the hilarious thing is that boston(all of massachusetts really) has such a terrible police force primarily because it's a borderline communist state to begin with, same with the NYPD. you see these places that elect liberal governments and those same governments turn around and beat the liberals down at any opportunity they're given, it's glorious

SmartMuffin posted...
They are.

The media is just ignoring them.

WHAT A SHOCKER!!!

Really? Where? A cursory Google of Tea Party Counter Protests doesn't show me anything, and you'd think that there'd be lots of Tea Party blogs all over counter protests.

That's not true, there was one article about a counter-protest in Philly. That's it though.

http://blogs.reuters.com/david-cay-johnston/2011/10/07/occupy-wall-street/

Fantastic article about the protests.

--
Yo Where All The White Women At