Board 8 > Metal Gear Solid 3 beated

(+) Yeah! (+)

Meh, I hate intangible and seemingly impossible to defeat foes, and that's what MGS2 presents the Patriots to be. It's just not satisfying.

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That just makes it better when you beat them anyway!

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

If you actually got to beat them, then maybe.

The Patriots storyline is just unsatisfying for me through and through.

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It would have been satisfying if MGS4 delivered in the story department.

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A story doesn't need to allow you to hit an enemy in the face for it to be satisfying. There's a lot of other, more important factors to consider, at least for me.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

I'm not saying it does.

But again, the lack of control and basically doing what you were being led along to do. It's almost ironic, but still unsatisfying.

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"The great GF...Bahamut."
"...GF? I...? Using my powers...It is you humans...I fear..."

You're almost completely powerless in all of MGS1/3, too. MGS2 just makes you realize it and asks you what you're going to do about it.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

Eh, maybe if you actually got the opportunity to witness the repercussions of your actions, it might help, but you don't get to see any of it.

You have much more control in MGS3 though, unless you're one of those people who believes The Boss and the Cobras lost on purpose.

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She did lose on purpose! Or rather she had to lose.

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I don't think she had to lose. She had backup measures in place in case Snake couldn't actually finish the job, after all.

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"But you have been given freedom. Freedom to be...outside."
"I am lightning...the rain transformed."

MGS3 starts with you getting sent on a mission to clear your name for something that wasn't your fault. You then spend the rest of the game tearing through your old mentor and her comrades only for the end of the game to go "Yeah, she was on your side the whole time and kept quiet so she could do her duty to the end". It even turns out that EVA was manipulating you from the start. If that's not a total and completely lack of control, I don't know what is.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

I'm not exactly sure how any of that takes any measure of control out of Snake's hand. The only thing Eva and The Boss care about is getting the Philosopher's Legacy. Eva doesn't wrest any sense of control out of Snake's hands, even if she was just lying to him the whole time. It's like saying Rose stole control from Raiden. She didn't.

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Because no decision he makes is his own. All of his actions were preordained for him by other people. It's the same issue Raiden goes through, it's just not played up as much.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

I don't know about you, but when I confronted Volgin it was very personal.

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I liked MGS3 because it had a cheesy action movie plot that I found actually entertaining. Plus, the characters were fun. Were they deep at all? Nope, not really. But hey it was a good cast.

Was the plot bad? Pretty much. Did I enjoy it way more than 2? Hell yeah.

I have no problem with 2's plot, but...I just didn't enjoy it.

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If by "no decision he makes is his own" and "All of his actions were preordained for him by other people," that means "Snake was given a mission by the U.S. government, and he follows through with completing it" then that's correct. The difference is that Snake knew what his ultimate goal and mission was, even if he didn't understand all the reasons behind it, and he did it willingly. He did ultimately feel betrayed by those reasons, of course, and he turned on the government later, but that didn't change that he always knew what he was out there to do. Raiden is basically totally clueless the entire time, and then they flatten you with it at the end. The amount of control and leading along Raiden receives isn't all that comparable to Naked Snake's.

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KamikazePotato posted...
You're almost completely powerless in all of MGS1/3, too. MGS2 just makes you realize it and asks you what you're going to do about it.

Yeah, and in 1 and 3 you still managed to do something despite being powerless. That's the difference. You killed Foxhound, defeated Solidus, and destroyed the Metal Gear in 1.

You stopped the Metal Gear prototype thing, stopped Cobra, and stopped Vulgin and The Boss in 3.

In 2 you stop a fat bastard on roller skates who still succeeds partially, fail to do most tasks that you were given, and then be told "lol you sure did fail, didn't you? Good thing we meant for you to do that!" And then the plot flew away on a Metal Gear RAY, then you defeat Solidus, who is basically impotent and has no significant reason to need to be killed anyway beyond a shoehorned excuse for the game to have a final boss. The issue with 2 is that you had no tangible success as Raiden. And that's why it sucked.

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I'd say that if Naked Snake didn't know by far the most important aspect of his mission, then he's basically clueless. You can't go "He knew everything except that the mentor he was agonizing over was actually a good guy and he was being lied to the entire time by everyone and killed her for almost no reason". Raiden knew his mission too, and it never changed throughout the entire game.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

From: KamikazePotato | #118
You can't go "He knew everything except that the mentor he was agonizing over was actually a good guy and he was being lied to the entire time by everyone and killed her for almost no reason"

But there's a difference between being deceived without realizing it and being controlled without realizing it. Just because you're being lied to doesn't mean you're being controlled.

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Uh, no. In MGS2 everything you do is actually a good thing that matters. The people in charge of you just stopped pretending that you're anything other than their pawn. If in MGS1/3, Campbell or Zero had gone "Just finish the mission, you don't have a choice anyway" it wouldn't have changed a bit of the plot. It makes for different themes, but that's about it.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

Really? Do you really think BB would have killed The Boss if he had known the full truth? Would he have gotten close to EVA if he knew she was a Chinese agent? Deceit is control. That's a huge, huge message that MGS2 tries to present.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

What important, tangible thing did Raiden do in MGS2 then?

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You mean besides discovering the existence of the Patriots, playing a big role in getting the hostages out alive, disarming the bombs, defeating all of Dead Cell, and stopping Solidus (who, despite your claims, was very much a threat)? I guess not much.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

Raiden didn't accomplish anything by killing Solidus, sure. Same as Snake destroying REX didn't stop the Patriots OR Solidus. Or BB being used by the government and coming to realize at the end that his country wasn't worth fighting for.

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MGS4's story was excellent, to say the least. Amazing closure proving Kojima's unrivaled genius in the gaming industry.

MGS4 is by far the best game of this generation so far.

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From: KamikazePotato | #121
Do you really think BB would have killed The Boss if he had known the full truth? Would he have gotten close to EVA if he knew she was a Chinese agent? Deceit is control.

The Boss poses the question to Snake right there at the very, very end: What is it going to be: Loyalty to the mission, or loyalty to me? It's hard to say what Snake would have done in that situation even if he knew what The Boss's mission really was, but regardless of whether he knew it, she had to die anyway.

But what control did Eva actually exercise over Snake? She stole the wrong copy of the Philosopher's Legacy and she didn't shoot him because she promised The Boss she wouldn't, big deal.

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I mean, if you want to say that MGS3 'feels' like you have much more control than MGS2, then yes, that's true. But the actual amount of control you have really isn't that different. MGS1 gives you the most control out of the series, probably, but yeah.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

'Loyalty to me' is a very very different question when you think your mentor is supporting someone whose idea of testing a nuclear weapon is to fire it at a lab in his own country. The Boss he thought she was and The Boss she actually was were two different people. And who said that she had to die? The US government, to save their own asses? I seriously doubt that BB would have gone through with it if he knew the full story.

Eva's attempt at control failed when she took the wrong copy, but she still completely manipulated Snake from the start. If she had been a little more competent, it would have been disastrous - but she still played a big role in emotionally crippling BB, anyway.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

If that's what The Boss actually wanted (and it was), then there's more of a chance Naked Snake would have complied. Then it would've been choosing loyalty to The Boss anyway.

What did Eva actually get Snake to do that he wouldn't have done otherwise, other than sleep with her so she could take the wrong copy of the Legacy? She had very little control over his emotions or his actions until the very end, and then she botched it anyway.

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KamikazePotato posted...
You mean besides discovering the existence of the Patriots, playing a big role in getting the hostages out alive, disarming the bombs, defeating all of Dead Cell, and stopping Solidus (who, despite your claims, was very much a threat)? I guess not much.

- Discovering the Patriots doesn't mean anything if you can't do anything to thwart them.
- You stop only half of Fatman's plans, and nothing else. Dead Cell succeeded in basically all of their objectives.
- I can't recall anything about the hostages (as I only remember the president dying) but if he did save them, I guess that's one thing he did. I recall you going to save them before you get knocked out, but that's it.
- You disarm part of the bombs which were said to be a diversion for a bigger bomb, thus undercutting your importance again
- Solidus basically admits he's on Raiden's side and just wants to fight him for the nanomachines in his head. Basically, shoehorned and there was literally nothing else to stop.

So yeah, not much.

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'Eva, I *need* you....I can't fly the plane by myself!'

Eva failed so hard as a seductress, it was hilarious

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But he didn't choose loyalty to The Boss. He chose loyalty to The Country, under false pretenses. BB pretended that he didn't care about EVA, and kept his guard up around her as long as he could, but I thought it was pretty obvious that by the end he considered her a friend and ally. Those lies basically created the Big Boss that he ended up becoming - if everyone had been up front with him from the start, does he start a revolution?

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

Man, you got like five facts about the game wrong in that post alone.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

From: KamikazePotato | #132
but I thought it was pretty obvious that by the end he considered her a friend and ally.

Of course he did. She felt the same way about him, too, honestly. MGS4 confirms it. She didn't exercise control over him despite deceiving him though.

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As Peace Walker showed, his eventual motivation for all that was 'Good god woman, you got walked over by everyone. I won't be like you'

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Deceit is control. Whether or not EVA felt the same way about BB is irrelevant - if she had just plain told him "I'm a Chinese agent after the philosopher's legacy", he doesn't get close to her, period. Just because someone isn't holding a gun to your head doesn't mean you aren't being controlled.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

Then we have different ideas of control. I don't agree with your assessment that deceit is control. None of the stuff you're saying about Eva seems to tell me, "She controlled Snake." No, Snake doesn't get close to her if he knows the truth about her, but that doesn't mean she has control over him.

For most of the game, he doesn't trust her and he doesn't feel anything for her.

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I thought this was fairly well established by the plane scene up there

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That someone as guarded as Naked Snake was still eventually manipulated by EVA speaks volumes, I think. But we're not going to agree on this.

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Black Turtle did a pretty good job.

And she still botched it. I agree Eva could have established (wrist) control at the end, but she didn't. She blew it completely.

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How can you say MGS3 has no emotion or characterization when there is so much of Ocelot, the most interesting and best developed character in the series?

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