Board 8 > More Guns, Less Crime

(+) Yeah! (+)

The evidence keeps piling up and piling up. Leftists refuse to acknowledge it.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/09/30/media-silence-is-deafening-about-important-gun-news/?intcmp=trending

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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It was the largest drop in Chicago’s murder rate since the handgun ban went into effect in 1982.

This is interesting. I guess back then the whole illegal gun infrastructure wasn't set up yet.

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_foolmo_
'so I can potentially win the guru without getting the final right?' - BlAcK TuRtLe

You're reading that wrong. It's not stating that there was a large drop in 1982, that's just the frame of reference for this particular statistic. See below:

even when combined with the quite familiar story of how their murder rates soared and stayed high after the gun bans were imposed. .

If you're really interested, the guy wrote a whole book about the statistics behind concealed-carry laws and violent crime. It's pretty good.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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....the article states that only those relatively wealthy can get permits, yet is trying to account for Chicago and DC crime rates dropping.

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The future must protect the clone's past.
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lies, damned lies and...

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....the article states that only those relatively wealthy can get permits, yet is trying to account for Chicago and DC crime rates dropping.

You don't think there are wealthy people in Chicago and DC?

Also, the key word in that sentence is relatively. The permits aren't SO expensive that it's impossible for a poor person to get one, but they're expensive enough to serve as an economic disincentive towards getting them, which is more likely to deter the poor than the rich.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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I am inclined to agree. It is good for the country too. The more people who have guns that know how to use them, the less invadeable we are. Not that we are very invadeable to begin with given the airforce and navy, but still...

Stupid people will be stupid people. Not the gun's fault. *shrugs*

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Isn't this like the anarchists argument for no gun laws?

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Chrono1219

if you are experiencing double digit decline of crime in an urban area, something requiring any form of wealth can be pretty damn sure to not be the largest factor, or close to it. i'm more prone to believe it's a wash since guns aren't exactly hard to get in an urban area. assuming they're anything like every other city like 'em, most gun violence is gonna happen in poor places. if you can be considered 'relatively wealthy' you are not living in an area where a lot of gun violence exists in the first place.

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The future must protect the clone's past.
"Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.

I propose an alternative: the awful economic conditions in those places are making it harder for criminals to afford guns.

You can't prove a causal link between laxer gun control laws and lowered gun violence.

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...though at the same time of that, the article also misses the most obvious point of all.

Neither Chicago nor DC have a low crime rate in the first place. they've been dropping for a while as policy's changed over the years (both at reducing the actual number and at fudging 'em up better), but they're still above most parts of the US. hell, they're still some of the highest among cities across the US.

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The future must protect the clone's past.
"Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.

You can't prove a causal link between laxer gun control laws and lowered gun violence.

First of all, it's not casual, and secondly, he has proven that a statistically significant link exists. Read the book!

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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Hey guys, it's a link from fox news.

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SmartMuffin posted...
You can't prove a causal link between laxer gun control laws and lowered gun violence.

First of all, it's not casual, and secondly, he has proven that a statistically significant link exists. Read the book!

Causal, not casual. As in your claim: freer gun laws cause a decrease in gun violence. He did not prove that, because you cannot prove a causal link without an experiment.

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Ah, my bad, I misread.

In any case, if you're interested, you really should read the book. He accounts for almost every variable imaginable. The results repeat themselves across pretty much all areas in the United States. Statistics world-wide are quite limited, but those we have also support the same conclusion.

Meanwhile, leftists who cry that legalizing guns will lead to more gun violence have no evidence of any kind whatsoever. He makes the point in his book that you know we've come a long way in the argument when the Brady campaign is arguing that concealed carry laws have absolutely no effect on violent crime rates.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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So... if I buy a handgun... the crime rate drops a certain percent.

BUT... what if I bought a Barrett M82? Would the crime rate drop even more? What if I carry that sucker around with me in my "Open Carry" state?

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I believe he declared it virtually impossible to study the effects of open carry, since most places with open carry laws have had them on the books for a long period of time, well before such statistics were kept. Concealed carry laws are relatively new in most jurisdictions, so it was easy to study the marginal effects.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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SmartMuffin posted...
I believe he declared it virtually impossible to study the effects of open carry, since most places with open carry laws have had them on the books for a long period of time, well before such statistics were kept. Concealed carry laws are relatively new in most jurisdictions, so it was easy to study the marginal effects.

So it's the fear that someone might be packing heat?

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So it's the fear that someone might be packing heat?

Exactly. When an area has concealed carry laws, criminals have no idea whether the little old lady they're about to rob is secretly packing a pistol or not. Therefore, they're less likely to rob *anyone*. That's how deterrence works.

One of the lines from the book I love is his description of "gun-free zones" (mostly government buildings and college campuses, surprise surprise). Something like "If you knew there was a crime wave in your neighborhood, would you put signs up on your house saying 'There are absolutely no guns in this home?'"

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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I don't know about any of that.

What I do know is that my hometown of Kennesaw, GA literally has a law on the books REQUIRING you to own a gun, and we have had a lower home invasion rate than neighboring cities ever since, despite the fact that the law is completely unenforced and unenforceable. And this has been going on since around 1982 (made out of a mockery of the Chicago gun bans, if I understand correctly).

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So, this was hanging up on the bulletin board in the lobby of the building where I work today



And no, I didn't put it there!

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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Anyone with any sort of sense knows that criminals will get guns illegally whether they are legal or not... gun bans only prevent innocents from having guns to protect themselves with.

But that rare case of some guy's son shooting himself in the face with his dad's handgun makes it hard for most americans to be logical.

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_foolmo_
'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram

But that rare case of some guy's son shooting himself in the face with his dad's handgun makes it hard for most americans to be logical.

EXCEEDINGLY rare. I forget the specific examples he used in the book, but it was stuff like "every year, more people die from drowning in the bathtub than from accidental firearms discharges"

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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That doesn't matter when it's all an issue of public appeasement.

It's just like DRM in games. Publishers know that DRM won't stop pirates, and that it's actually even more harmful than beneficial, but the stockholders want to hear that there is some sort of deterrent in place, just like parents want to know that their kid won't accidentally shoot himself in the face.

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_foolmo_
[NO BARKLEY NO PEACE]

Maybe if the parents knew how to properly hide their firearms...

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From: foolm0ron | Posted: 10/5/2011 11:53:38 PM | #024
just like parents want to know that their kid won't accidentally shoot himself in the face.

I place that blame on the parents, teach the kid to respect firearms and not treat them as toys, and they won't shoot themselves unintentionally.

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Heroic Mass Carrier posted...
Hey guys, it's a link from fox news.

Now you guys know how I feel every time someone links to the huffington post

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From: RayDyn | #026
I place that blame on the parents

Who are you gonna vote for, the guy that is making you take responsibility, or the guy who is putting the blame on "The Man" and "The Laws"?

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_foolmo_
'but that statement is something only an Aspergers patient would say' - UltimaterializerX

I'm not saying it's a politically viable opinion, or a popular opinion, I'm just saying the parents have themselves to blame, either don't have a gun, or teach the f***ing dumb ass kid that it's not a f***ing toy.

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foolmo, your logic doesn't even make sense

people who hate guns won't HAVE guns in their home, so their children won't be at risk of accidentally shooting themselves

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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SmartMuffin posted...
So, this was hanging up on the bulletin board in the lobby of the building where I work today



And no, I didn't put it there!

Since this is obviously not a picture of something on a bulletin board, is this just an image you happened to have around, or did you have to seek it out to post it here? Because no matter what, that's too much effort.

The New York Times even editorialized this month about the Supreme Court's "unwise" decision that there is a right for people "to keep guns in the home."


I love how you actually open that link and the editorial in question is about something almost entirely different. But never mind. Correlation does not causation prove and stuff.

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more guns more deer meat

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I saw it on the bulletin board, so when I got home I googled "the experts agree gun control works" and it came up.

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SmartMuffin - Because anything less would be uncivilized
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SmartMuffin posted...
So, this was hanging up on the bulletin board in the lobby of the building where I work today



And no, I didn't put it there!

lol ad hominem

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