Panthera posted... If characters are actually conscious of the tournament being ongoing, that means each round is canonical to the next one, and that means that Yuki auto-wins this because in round 1 she already knew she'd be fighting Goku now, sensed everything about him, and if it's needed warped reality to give herself a "if encountering enemy monkey man, transform self into either super durable form or intangible form" contingency plan and he's now boned.
There's a reason matches happen in a void, ESPECIALLY when you start bringing out folks who can perceive the future.
I've always seen it as they don't know anything else except they are in a tournament, and what round it is. Otherwise its just really stupid. Just because you are a normal nice guy does not mean you should be at a disadvantage for a tournament that is supposed to be all about power. (Hence why almost every Super Sonic debate this board has ever had has been full of fail, yes, he would kill, get over it). Luckily with Goku, we actually see him in tournament settings in canon, so he shouldn't (emphasis on shouldn't, there is still the problem of most of this board being unintelligent beyond normalcy) have that disadvantage that you attribute to others like Sonic, like Link, like Kal-el, and so many others.
If you geniuses would read the tournament, personality plays a factor into it. Being a nice guy who would not go in for a kill right away has cost characters matches.
Wow, so the arguments for her literally involve her just seeing the future and vaguely powering up without any showings as far as I've seen of her ever doing so or ever really participating in battle.
I mean until you guys say something past "reality manipulation" and actually give a practical application or actual definition that doesn't involve a metaphysical debate on whether or not she exists in any form, Goku's got a lot going for him to take out whatever she is in that spot.
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I have no idea who you are, but I thank you for arousing me. - Beruga Brawl FC: 3823-8243-5663
Chrono1219 posted... If you geniuses would read the tournament, personality plays a factor into it. Being a nice guy who would not go in for a kill right away has cost characters matches.
And my point is that it absolutely should not. I could be the most powerful person ever, but this board would say I would lose because I was a pacifist, which is moronic. Hence why this should be thrown out the window because they know they are in an all or nothing fight. the only time personality should EVER effect these, would be if someone was sadistic, and therefore drew out the match against a weaker opponent that gets stronger as a fight goes on, and did not end it when they could have, but enjoyed playing with their prey too much.
From: KJH | #103 Wow, so the arguments for her literally involve her just seeing the future and vaguely powering up without any showings as far as I've seen of her ever doing so or ever really participating in battle.
yeah, pretty much
think of all the times enemies went through great lengths to try and bring Goku down when they weren't his physical match, and yet he always trumps them
while Yuki is busy doing 'whatever' (nobody actually knows what she might do if she could even possibly have a chance in this match) Goku is going to fly directly at her and knock her out by almost punching her in the face
Well this is weird, especially since we have other alternate universe type things in here (Superman Prime was not canon last I checked, he existed as a what if character)
Prime is cannon. We all just wish he wasn't
Dunno where the hell you guys are getting Goku Speedblitzes, since he almost never does that, I can't remember if he ever did outside bring a kid.
He never starts fights in super saiyan either unless he knows who he's fighting.
He'd be hitting nothing if he did anyways. If he tried to find out where the actual Nagato is, Im pretty sure she's gonna do something during that point.
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Shoenin_Kakashi posted... Well this is weird, especially since we have other alternate universe type things in here (Superman Prime was not canon last I checked, he existed as a what if character)
Prime is cannon. We all just wish he wasn't
Dunno where the hell you guys are getting Goku Speedblitzes, since he almost never does that, I can't remember if he ever did outside bring a kid.
He never starts fights in super saiyan either unless he knows who he's fighting.
He'd be hitting nothing if he did anyways. If he tried to find out where the actual Nagato is, Im pretty sure she's gonna do something during that point.
I know I'm going to regret this, because LOL Comics and their readers, and all that, but here goes.
How can Prime exist in the same canon/universe as Kal-El?
From what i understood, she could freely move between both.
there is no movement going on. think of it as more like computers than people. it's like trying to delete a program by getting rid of the shortcut when only the shortcut exists in your universe and the program is fully aware of everything going on to it as the two are directly connected and there's an active connection between them.
and please, she's faster than him in the first place. hell, faster than anything in dbz there.
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The future must protect the clone's past. "Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.
From: Shoenin_Kakashi | #106 Dunno where the hell you guys are getting Goku Speedblitzes, since he almost never does that, I can't remember if he ever did outside bring a kid.
This technically is kinda true, and kind of isn't. I'd lean towards not true. I was looking back at most of his fights, and the villain or enemy(whether it be Earth destroyer or Tenkaichi setting), the enemy would initiate a conversation, and Goku would almost always respond, when the convo ended, he speed blitzed. If the fight started with no conversation, Goku for the most part did do a speedblitz.
From: KJH | #503 Wow, so the arguments for her literally involve her just seeing the future and vaguely powering up without any showings as far as I've seen of her ever doing so or ever really participating in battle.
I mean until you guys say something past "reality manipulation" and actually give a practical application or actual definition that doesn't involve a metaphysical debate on whether or not she exists in any form, Goku's got a lot going for him to take out whatever she is in that spot.
She can create an alternate reality at a universal level, replacing everyones memories, properties, etc. She did this with Haruhi, and she had like protection to stop it. Does Goku (or anyone else) have a reality condom? I don't think so.
She can also change the properties of things in whatever reality she's in too. Like making something really heavy, or whatever. It's not beyond her powers to make it so DBZ powerup or whatever not work.
Shoenin_Kakashi posted... (no, it is not light speed, it is literal instant, friggen Funimation, they were outstripping light at the start of Z)
Are you actually taking Dub Raditz seriously
No, not at all. However, when they start running away from the light beams, and it does not catch up to them, they are moving faster than light. I want to say the earliest this happened was on Namek, so that means anyone with a power level from the 90,000 to 3,000,000 range would be able to pull that off. Again, for reference, this Goku we are talking about right now is in the 10s of trillions. And he has IT, which is, instant.
yes. he's got 2 accounts right now, no idea which one is being posted with (or both), and it's mind boggling why any of you would consider anything he's saying. i mean i can understand if you don't know that's his account, but if you do then you also know that staring at a wall is a better thing to do.
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The future must protect the clone's past. "Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.
From: Shoenin_Kakashi | #113 Which fight was this?
Gum.
Happens a lot in the Red Ribbon Army arc as well. His first preliminary match in the Tenkaichi. It doesn't happen often, because so many people want to have a convo first in DB/Z. >_>
***Haruhi spoilers*** - - - - - - A person spontaneously and unexpectedly gained the ability to shoot a laser beam from one eye. Nagato is fast enough to intercept the attack and protect the person standing about 2 meters behind her. The person firing the laser from their eye is a few meters away. This is purely movement speed and reaction speed since nobody, not even the person who fired the laser, knew beforehand that they were fire a laser from their eye. Being able to deal with lightspeed attacks should make Yuki a lot faster than Goku.
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Team Rocket Elite posted... ***Haruhi spoilers*** - - - - - - A person spontaneously and unexpectedly gained the ability to shoot a laser beam from one eye. Nagato is fast enough to intercept the attack and protect the person standing about 2 meters behind her. The person firing the laser from their eye is a few meters away. This is purely movement speed and reaction speed since nobody, not even the person who fired the laser, knew beforehand that they were fire a laser from their eye. Being able to deal with lightspeed attacks should make Yuki a lot faster than Goku.
I agree, not like Goku has dealt with light speed attacks since he was 17 or anything. (He'd be 38 or 48 now, depending on when you think his canon strongest time was)
Also, not like Goku reflected about 1,000 lasers in the the span of a second, all away from his friends who were standing feet behind him.
No one actually can calculate Goku's battle speed, he is however able to incorporate instant transmission into some of this attacks(if not most). If you are wondering how fast his instant transmission, it's something like 100 trillion to the the 10th power faster(I think the number is actually quite a bit higher, I can't really remember, and don't feel like doing the calculation atm) than the speed of light. This was calculated by taking the distance from Earth to Namek, and how Goku could reach there in an instant.
When has Goku actually used IT in combat outside that one time where he used it to trick Cell (which Cell basically let him do because he didn't expect Goku to actually throw a serious attack at him since he thought it would risk destroying the Earth)
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Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved.
The fact that Ki gives off light doesn't really mean that it is light, or that it's as fast as light. Really, more problems would probably arise from assuming it did move that fast rather than the reverse.
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Dying breath, light my blade and sing in shadow! Omega!
LlednarTwem posted... The fact that Ki gives off light doesn't really mean that it is light, or that it's as fast as light. Really, more problems would probably arise from assuming it did move that fast rather than the reverse.
We call this the MWC light speed theory. Anything that remotely looks like light moves at the speed of light without expecting. It's pretty much the point where we stop arguing and deem ourselves victorious.
-- SomeC - sheer explosives since meeting that crazy hobo. BlAcK TuRtLe grabbed the Guru victory, slow but steady.
We call this the MWC light speed theory. Anything that remotely looks like light moves at the speed of light without expecting. It's pretty much the point where we stop arguing and deem ourselves victorious.
Ah yes, the Samus Power Beam Corollary. It's in most major physics textbooks by now.
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"The courtroom is the garden of holy judgment. Those with lechery in their hearts should leave this sanctuary at once!" ~Franziska von Karma
...IT doesn't have a speed. it's teleportation. point A -> point B with minor delay in between to establish A and B. it's not like anyone' smoving along the way, you're in one spot then the next. y'know, you teleport.
...which still doesn't really matter as she can teleport too anyway.
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The future must protect the clone's past. "Maybe it's a tentacle, molesting the planet itself. - Aschen Brodel.
Goku did speedblitzes a lot in the tournaments and hey, he's in a tournament right now. So I don't see why he wouldn't do it again. He did it as an adult, too, in the preliminaries. Also, her appearing as a little girl wouldn't matter. He was a little kid with insane power, too, I don't think he'd underestimate his opponent.
Even those aside, I'm not sure who would win. Somewhat leaning towards Goku, but I'm not going to vote at this time.
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"I wanted to change the world, too. But I changed nothing. That is my story."
Paraphrasing what I said in the last topic: I disagree with the notion that Nagato can just instal-seal/steal Goku's Ki, given what we see of other fighters in DBZ (most notable example? Candy Vegitto). Ultimately, I think it'll boil down to strategy and tactics, and even with Goku's combat-focused mind, he doesn't hold a candle to Nagato's brainpower.
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There never was a post. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and refracted the light from Venus.
Yuki does not steal/seal energy in the way where it's like something you can fight against. Unless you have very specific parameters to stop it, you aren't.
It's not like the DBZ fighters had protection against energy drain, anyway. IIRC, the cyborgs 19 and 20 and that weird thing in the Buu saga drained energy just fine from the DBZ guys. Though the cyborgs drained too slowly against the stronger ones and the weird thing can't control it's intake (lol Goku's way of killing that thing)
Nagato doesn't need to touch Goku, all she needs to do is rewrite the universe, and when it happens, it happens instantly, and Nagato can handle the power.
Believe it or not, I actually buy the Samus Beam Corollary. I just think people are dumb and forget that lightning doesn't go at lightspeed yet still qualifies as light. Yes, something can move at a significant fraction of C if it has similar properties to C you know.
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That said, there's still no arguments that decently counter Yuki's "I know how to win, I can ring you out into a different dimension, I can delete your brain from existence, or I can shoot a bigger Spirit Bomb than you can, instantly" arguments.
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Not to mention, a ring out from getting out of the dimension? Goku's capable of instant transmission between dimensions, and does so frequently. Even between realms of life and death, he can instant transmission.
Hell, even the act of doing it involves Goku making a pocket dimension and instantly wormholing from it to the place he wants to go.
Either way, all of the ways Yuki's been said to win involve completely unshown powers and a fanboyish assumption that she truly has no limits whatsoever, rather than undefined limits. She's never dealt with something like Goku, and he's far enough into that undefined level she never dealt with that he takes her out.
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I have no idea who you are, but I thank you for arousing me. - Beruga Brawl FC: 3823-8243-5663
From: KJH | #151 Not to mention, a ring out from getting out of the dimension? Goku's capable of instant transmission between dimensions, and does so frequently. Even between realms of life and death, he can instant transmission.
Hell, even the act of doing it involves Goku making a pocket dimension and instantly wormholing from it to the place he wants to go.
Either way, all of the ways Yuki's been said to win involve completely unshown powers and a fanboyish assumption that she truly has no limits whatsoever, rather than undefined limits. She's never dealt with something like Goku, and he's far enough into that undefined level she never dealt with that he takes her out.
I don't think you quite understand what I mean when I say dimensions. I meant making Goku be literally out of his depth and thus utterly incapable of hurting Yuki with a simple change in position.
Also, none of that unshown powers bullcrap. She's literally done the timestop, the powersteal, deletions, etc. The onus is on YOU to prove we're lying.
Also, none of that unshown powers bullcrap. She's literally done the timestop, the powersteal, deletions, etc. The onus is on YOU to prove we're lying.
I'm not calling anyone a liar. I only watched like the first three eps of Haruhi. I'm just trying to get a clearer picture of Yuki's actual combat feats. For instance, can you give me examples of battles where Yuki used her powersteal against an enemy? How long did the powersteal process take? How powerful was the enemy?
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From: Gatarix | #153 Also, none of that unshown powers bullcrap. She's literally done the timestop, the powersteal, deletions, etc. The onus is on YOU to prove we're lying.
I'm not calling anyone a liar. I only watched like the first three eps of Haruhi. I'm just trying to get a clearer picture of Yuki's actual combat feats. For instance, can you give me examples of battles where Yuki used her powersteal against an enemy? How long did the powersteal process take? How powerful was the enemy?
Talking to KJH there, sorry if I wasn't clear enough.
And said enemy was...a god. As-in another reality warper.
Examples of Nagato feats done quick because I have work to do:
-Turned a classroom into an endless desert. As-in literally without end. -Creates Closed Space, AKA pocket dimensions. Hard to escape a pocket universe considering something much crappier trapped a huge threat in DBZ. -Mind control through data manipulation. The example that comes to mind ASAP is brainwashing a student, but Goku doesn't have awesome resistance to mind control IIRC. -Freezed time for years at a time.
Basically, if KJH wants to disprove Yuki feats, he can find the novels. Calling people liars when they're just talking about stuff that explicitly happened rubs me the wrong way.
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