From: CoolCly | #147 I honestly just don't understand users like Icon in this topic. Yes, Atheism has no unified set of beliefs that every atheist follows or anything, but it's undeniable that many atheists, especially on this board, are very hostile towards people that are open about religious beliefs. Many atheists will outright ridicule anybody for believing some kind of religious doctrine and will outright say that such people are stupid or insane.
The problem is that this is an utterly pointless thing to say because it's not exactly news that you will always find hostile members of any given group. And most of the time this is brought up it's when someone is trying to say that atheists are all jackasses.
--
Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved.
Panthera posted... The problem is that this is an utterly pointless thing to say because it's not exactly news that you will always find hostile members of any given group. And most of the time this is brought up it's when someone is trying to say that atheists are all jackasses.
No, it isn't pointless to say. Many people believe that Atheism is a superior mindset. Extha proved that mere posts into the topic. When you actually start believing this kind of thing, then it's not any different from believing in any religion.
And then you end up with that one South Park episode about atheism in the future..
--
The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG
it's actually much superior as it doesn't enforce discrimination.
Neither does Christianity.
lol "hardcore" atheists
as if there are levels of not believing
I NOT BELIEVE MORE THAN YOU
There's a significant difference between believing there is no god(Atheism is not just not believing) and believing that someone is foolish or idiotic for believing otherwise.
Atheism does not promote discrimination.
The whole issue with hardcore atheism is that you're acting like you're superior to religious believers. That's pretty much discrimination >.>;
--
"Luxe, calme et volupte." - Charles Baudelaire, The Invitation to the Voyage
(Reasonable(N) = my definition of reasonable, using probability theory. Unadorned means "most accurate beliefs given preexisting information)
Nah, we have the same definition of reasonable (what you said is yours). The disagreement is not even on whether probability theory can be applied, but only on how it should be applied. Example: 2 witnesses give contradictory testimony. It's reasonable for the jury to believe one, or to believe the other. This is what I mean by a question of fact on which reasonable people can disagree.
Reasonable(N) people can't disagree then actually! Or rather, if there is any source of disagreement, if they pool their information they must agree afterward. Note that this doesn't mean that they must take an intermediate position or adopt one of the two original positions.
I don't see how you can say that it's reasonable for the jury to disagree though. If there is a method that produces the MOST accurate belief given preexisting information, and ALL the jury members have the same information, I don't see how they can disagree.
--
You're messing with me! You're messing with me, aren't you!? You're making fun of me, aren't you!? Aren't you!? You definitely are! I'll murder you!
From: CoolCly | #152 No, it isn't pointless to say. Many people believe that Atheism is a superior mindset. Extha proved that mere posts into the topic. When you actually start believing this kind of thing, then it's not any different from believing in any religion.
Well aside from the fact that it's not a religion. So yeah it actually is different from believing in a religion!
And it's pointless because "there are some members of this group who are jerks" is a pretty empty statement since we all know it applies to every sizable group ever. It's a different issue than ones associated with religious beliefs too, since atheism by definition is not promoting that attitude (it doesn't promote any attitude, it's just a lack of belief in a deity), whereas religions tend to promote certain ideas about society in their followers, and if those ideas are harmful and oppressive, the religion itself *is* at fault for promoting them.
--
We clasped our hands, our hands in praise of a conquerors right to tyranny
Aside from that it's kinda silly to ignore that the worst actions caused by "religious" memes is suicide bombing and oppression of ~50% of the believing populace versus the new atheist movement which is... acerbic putdowns, lowered forum post quality and really terrible sounding hymns/poems.
--
You're messing with me! You're messing with me, aren't you!? You're making fun of me, aren't you!? Aren't you!? You definitely are! I'll murder you!
Because if your definition of religion is that broad, you make the term completely meaningless and useless. If atheism is a religion, thinking chocolate is tasty is also a religion. Both are things that some people believe. Religion tends to entail a lot more than a position on a single issue, most decent definitions of it will include the need for traditions, unity, an actual statement about the ideal way of things, sets of morals, the idea of something sacred, etc. Any mixture of these and more. It's not a cut and dry issue by any means but it's pretty easy to say that atheism is not a religion unless you think every belief about every subject is also a religion.
--
Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved.
If there is a method that produces the MOST accurate belief given preexisting information, and ALL the jury members have the same information, I don't see how they can disagree.
There is no such method, because the jury's beliefs on the credibility of witnesses are subjective.
Alternatively, someone is being unreasonable, but we, as observers, cannot say who it is with any degree of confidence. In which case, going to the original problem, I'll claim that you are unreasonable and you'll claim that I'm unreasonable.
--
Congratulations to SuperNiceDog, Guru Winner, who was smart enough to pick your 7 time champion, Link.
When you are an Atheist, there is a set of morals and beliefs that come with it, just like any other religion. This set may be far broader and varied than Christianity, but it is still a limited set. There is a distinct set of assumptions you can make about the beliefs and ideals of a person who is Atheist that you cannot make about an arbitrary person in general. That makes it enough of a religion using my definition or yours.
Unless you believe that you can be an Atheist that has the exact same set of morals and ideals as a Christian, where the only difference is that you don't believe in a God or afterlife or any of that.
From: foolm0ron | #161 Atheism isn't just a position on a single issue.
Yes it is.
When you are an Atheist, there is a set of morals and beliefs that come with it, just like any other religion. This set may be far broader and varied than Christianity, but it is still a limited set.
So explain to me these beliefs that I am obligated to hold by virtue of the power of...that belief I have that has zero effect on anything else I think beyond the fact that it means "God said so" will not be a reason used to support anything I think. I'm very curious to know now if I'm actually not an atheist despite the whole not believing in god thing that makes me fit the definition exactly.
Unless you believe that you can be an Atheist that has the exact same set of morals and ideals as a Christian, where the only difference is that you don't believe in a God or afterlife or any of that.
Wouldn't have the same reasoning for (most of) it but you could definitely believe in all the same things beyond the deity's influence. Atheism literally ONLY means "does not believe in the existence of any gods", so as long as you meet that criteria you can believe anything else at all.
--
Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved.
When you are an Atheist, there is a set of morals and beliefs that come with it, just like any other religion. This set may be far broader and varied than Christianity, but it is still a limited set. There is a distinct set of assumptions you can make about the beliefs and ideals of a person who is Atheist that you cannot make about an arbitrary person in general. That makes it enough of a religion using my definition or yours.
...So do you believe in religious freedom? Do you believe that any country, or group of countries should not be able to suppress any other groups of people practicing a different religion?
There is no such method, because the jury's beliefs on the credibility of witnesses are subjective.
Yes, and being reasonable(N) means that there is an objective way to evaluate the subjective beliefs of the witnesses. You can have different prior beliefs on what types of witnesses are more credible, but HOW you update your priors in the presence of new evidence such as the opinions of other jury members, will always be the same if you are reasonable(N).
--
You're messing with me! You're messing with me, aren't you!? You're making fun of me, aren't you!? Aren't you!? You definitely are! I'll murder you!
From: Panthera | #802 Atheism literally ONLY means "does not believe in the existence of any gods", so as long as you meet that criteria you can believe anything else at all.
This I agree with. However, this also pretty much means that something like Atheism does not qualify as a religion. In fact, I'm pretty sure one of the common arguments for atheism is the fault(s) of religions.
My point holds even if it's the jurors and not the witnesses. Can you use another analogy?
--
You're messing with me! You're messing with me, aren't you!? You're making fun of me, aren't you!? Aren't you!? You definitely are! I'll murder you!
Panthera posted... From: CoolCly | #152 No, it isn't pointless to say. Many people believe that Atheism is a superior mindset. Extha proved that mere posts into the topic. When you actually start believing this kind of thing, then it's not any different from believing in any religion. Well aside from the fact that it's not a religion. So yeah it actually is different from believing in a religion!
And it's pointless because "there are some members of this group who are jerks" is a pretty empty statement since we all know it applies to every sizable group ever. It's a different issue than ones associated with religious beliefs too, since atheism by definition is not promoting that attitude (it doesn't promote any attitude, it's just a lack of belief in a deity), whereas religions tend to promote certain ideas about society in their followers, and if those ideas are harmful and oppressive, the religion itself *is* at fault for promoting them.
"This thing I believe in is better than that thing you believe in" is a viewpoint many atheists hold and it's absolutely garbage.
--
The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG
CoolCly posted... Panthera posted... From: CoolCly | #152 No, it isn't pointless to say. Many people believe that Atheism is a superior mindset. Extha proved that mere posts into the topic. When you actually start believing this kind of thing, then it's not any different from believing in any religion. Well aside from the fact that it's not a religion. So yeah it actually is different from believing in a religion!
And it's pointless because "there are some members of this group who are jerks" is a pretty empty statement since we all know it applies to every sizable group ever. It's a different issue than ones associated with religious beliefs too, since atheism by definition is not promoting that attitude (it doesn't promote any attitude, it's just a lack of belief in a deity), whereas religions tend to promote certain ideas about society in their followers, and if those ideas are harmful and oppressive, the religion itself *is* at fault for promoting them.
"This thing I believe in is better than that thing you believe in" is a viewpoint many atheists hold and it's absolutely garbage.
most strawmen are
--
There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out
The strawman is saying that atheism doesn't promote looking down on other religions or anything like that, when the entire point of this topic is that hardcore atheists are terrible which is completely true.
--
The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG
The concept of a "hardcore atheist" doesn't really exist, just atheists who are also complete dickwads. There isn't really a way to be extremist about a lack of beliefs, only a way to act like a superior douchebag about it. Most people aren't superior douchebags about it, most people just don't really give a f***.
From: CoolCly | #171 The strawman is saying that atheism doesn't promote looking down on other religions or anything like that, when the entire point of this topic is that hardcore atheists are terrible which is completely true.
No, if you think atheism promotes arrogance, you have no clue what you're talking about. Atheism is not a system of beliefs, it is not anything more than a description of the idea of not believing in any gods. Atheism does not "promote" *anything*. It's ridiculous that people seriously don't understand that atheism is not an organized entity that tells its followers to think things.
--
Mistake you're making - overlooking the fact that we might not want to be saved.
From: CoolCly | Posted: 12/25/2011 3:29:51 AM | #171 The strawman is saying that atheism doesn't promote looking down on other religions or anything like that, when the entire point of this topic is that hardcore atheists are terrible which is completely true.
I'll admit I'm a bit rusty on my logical fallacies, but stating "atheism promotes looking down on religions" as an apparent fact is probably one of them.
And why do some people insist on referring to atheism as a religion? Are you unfamiliar with common approaches to defining or characterizing "religion" in religious studies, e.g. Ninian Smart's dimensions of religion? I assume you must be unfamiliar with it, or else unfamiliar with atheism at all, else you would realize how little atheism has in common with actual religions. Or do you think that atheism has an ethos beyond lack of belief in deities, or creation and cultural origin myths, or holy books, or rituals, or churches, or clergy, or a governing body, or supernatural beings, or transcendent experiences, or sacred places?
